^ Hear, hear.

Kind of interesting that all the comments on that story are about how 110 mph is a waste of money and we should go whole hog. Wouldn't have minded getting ten times as much in the stimulus so that could happen. I would be pleasantly surprised if the Chicago lines got $2 billion of this money though.

The times he mentions are pretty lackluster. Chicago to Madison in under three hours? You can drive in two and a half, or even stop in Milwaukee first in just over three. It's only 170 miles.

The Chicago-Milwaukee line is well suited to incremental improvement via the "Amtrak+" approach. It's probably the only city where that works, however.

Been thinking about this of late and want to get thoughts. If theoretically Chicago were to develop a new HSR/inter-city "hub" what/where plan would you like to see.......

- Union St./Gateway Cener - Demolishing of 222 S.Riverside Plaza (like the Chicago Architectural Club winner depicts). Pros - Could make Union Stations platform areas much brighter and modern instead of the dingy caves they are now. Has a great potential riverside aspect. Cons - The demolishing of a +40 story building isn't very environmental sensitive plus downright expensive, hassles for commuters for a few years. How I see it (please correct me where I have facts/logistics wrong)....

- West Loop Transit Center -.....Pro's - It fully built out as planned would be a highly integrated intermodal station with new tracks that would no longer crowd commuter and inter-city trains for same space. Not really sure how many tracks could be devoted and built under Clinton St. Cons - Sounds expensive if just HSR portion is built, sounds dreadful expensive if all transit levels are built. A subterranean hub may be a wonder of engineering but doesn't provide much of a street presence.

- Old Post Office - Only listing this because I have seen it mentioned a few times as a possibility. Pros - The building and tracks are already in place and potential adjoining hotel and offices subway (could build a connection to Clinton Blue Line I imagine rather easily). Cons - Still dingy subterranean platforms. Not sure if track logistics would provide for good traffic flow or make it even feasible. Plans for the Old Post Office seem in place.

- Completely new station outside of downtown connected by transit. I think there are cases where this is being done in Europe/Asia. Pros - Much more creative freedom and less expense to build since no need to demolish or excavate any building or streets. Could provide plenty of room for expansion and be built so there would be minimal interference of current commuter rail. Cons - Not sure if I am looking over some major hurdles that would prevent these locations or not. Not immediately accessible to downtown destinations. Would have to build or extend a transit line to connect the station to downtown which greatly increases cost. The area of the locations I have in mind are dreary to say the least.

Two Potential locations?
#1 - Racine / Kinzie
#2 - Canal / 14th Pl.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=...2538&encType=1

The 110 mph trains the Midwest High Speed Rail Association plans to use are FRA compliant. Therefore, they can continue to use Union Station. A new HSR train station in Chicago isn't needed, just as new train stations in every town and city aren't needed. That's one reason why the Midwest High Speed Rail Association plans costs are so low.

Off hand, I can think of two manufactures of 110+ mph trains that are FRA compliant.
(1) Bombardier - using the same passenger cars Amtrak's Acela uses but using the JetTrain locomotive.
http://www.texasrailadvocates.org/bo...r/JetTrain.jpg
http://www.trainweb.org/railpix/ampi...183-3-8-01.jpg
(2) Talgo - using the same passenger cars Amtrak's Cascades uses, with Talgo diesel locomotive or a more traditional American locomotove.
http://www.nationalcorridors.org/df/df06042001d.jpg
http://www.socalwizard.com/trainphot..._Surfliner.jpg

But Union Station in Chicago could be remodeled and refurbished.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately too. I think it's important to use the existing Union Station or some other location between it and Ogilvie, relatively. Even if that means using an ugly subterranean station with little street presence, I believe maintaining high connectivity with existing Amtrak/Metra/CTA trains should be the highest priority to maximize its use. A separate station for South/East bound trains at Millennium would also be smart, and I believe two dedicated tracks are about to be abandoned for such a thing with the CN-EJ&E merger. That said, I would very much like to see some sort of CTA extension if we get real HSR--one that runs along Canal, between Kedzie and Roosevelt and connecting every form of mass transit in between.


Regarding the routes, I think the decisions that are made now will determine what type of connectivity is prioritized in the future. I believe that a Chicago to Minneapolis corridor is more important to establish first than one from Chicago to St Louis. The length of the routes are approximately the same, but Minneapolis has a greater international presence and a more complimentary service industry than St. Louis. Therefore, the amount of business travel between Chicago and Minneapolis would be increased by a much greater degree than Chicago-St Louis, particularly in winter when flying becomes unreliable for short trips.

Secondly, I don't think that a Chicago-Milwaukee-Madison-...Minneapolis line is smart, precisely because the amount of intra-city slowdown that is necessary will substantially reduce the end-to-end commutes that are established to compete with the travel times of flying. A 110 line between Milwaukee-Chicago and Milwaukee-Madison will take care of most intercity jaunts; HSR isn't really needed. But I think a smarter connection north would be Chicago-O-Hare-Rockford-Madison-Rochester-(MSP? a wee bit out of the way)-Minneapolis. That would provide a well used route that isn't crippled by slow zones near the ends.

Third, I would very much like to see a connection among the Midwest's elite universities play a role in where inter-city stations are established. This would both improve the pedigree of established universities, and would also make the Midwest a more attractive location for graduate student immigration--a valued population that doesn't necessarily own a car. Broadly, the Mega-region around Chicago has 9(?) schools that are top 100 all around, top 20 in specialized fields: U. Chicago, Northwestern, U. Wisconsin, U. Minnesota, U. Illinois, Purdue, Washington U. St Louis, Notre Dame, and U Michigan. For this reason, I think a Chicago to St Louis route should pass through Champaign rather than Bloomington. Also, this is another reason that a Madison to Chicago route should not be hampered by Chicago-Milwaukee slow zones.

^ All good ideas, but I'll strike this one down for the reasons you mentioned above. Any station that is not downtown simply loses any of the advantages that rail offers. You really do have to have the HSR system terminate in downtown Chicago, not anywhere else (including O'Hare, which a few people have proposed, and which I would consider a huge mistake that, if ever proposed seriously, I would hope city leaders would strike down in an instant).

I have discussed this before, and I'll propose this again: Chicago should have 2 major transit nodes:

1. West Loop Transportation Center (Blue line spur, Metra and Amtrak terminals, HSR terminal)

2. East Loop Transportation Center (Connects to the Red Line, the Elevated train, connects via walkway to Millennium Station)

The above should be connected to eachother by an underground subway akin to the Times Sq/Grand Central Terminal shuttle in NYC.

Finally, the city should build that Carrol Avenue BRT to finally link Streeterville/Navy Pier/Mag Mile/Northwestern Univ to its downtown rail terminals, especially since it's eliminating the free trolley system.

What reasons are there that the current union station could not be used without demolishing 222 S Riverside Plaza? Subterranean platforms do not necessarily have to equate to dark and dingy. It could be dressed up to be much less depressing. Keep the 40 story building, but rebuild the rest of the block to be a modern rail station.

While we're on the subject, if platform space at Union Station is one of the reasons they're looking for alternatives, aren't some folks thinking of rebuilding it to have run-through tracks? Through-routing trains (both commuter and high speed) could increase efficiency and require fewer platforms.

One problem might be if the columns from the building above make that impossible. Although I'd hate to think they built it without taking that into account, but if that's the case then demolishing the building might make sense after all :rolleyes:

According to the MWHSRA, Union Station is already at capacity during rush hour, so any intercity trains would have to depart or arrive outside of the rush, which is suboptimal. There's a bunch of information about what they think should be done at Union Station here: http://www.downtownairport.com/index.htm

I think Millennium Station supposedly can't handle diesel trains. No idea how difficult it would be to make it possible to do so.

Is there capacity left at Ogilvie during the rush?

How about LaSalle? Could southbound trains use that station, perhaps if connectivity to the other stations were improved?

part of the CREATE program is to build a connection at 75th and parnell to allow the Metra SW service to move to the Lasalle Terminal.

Or we could just get really creative with Union Station and preserve the 40 story building, open up the tracks to light, and have a street presence. I love how people always assume things undoable. Its this simple, empty out 222 of tenants for the time being, then demolish the cladding on the lower 4 or 5 floors of it. Wherever possible, take out the floor plates as well, essentially leaving the whole building on stilts with nothing but the core and supports remaining. Then reenforce the building if necessary and re build the whole thing with a giant crystalline structure taking up the whole bottom of the block forming a base which 222 juts out of and allowing huge glass atrium that allow light to pour down through the passageways, food courts, waiting areas, ticket lines, and tracks below.

I don't know why people don't think of stuff like this as a solution more often. I mean "we need to build under this building", its a skeletal building, just remove everything but the essential skeleton on the lower floors and go from there. Yeah you'd have to work around it, but the end result would be stunning...

That's probably possible - but even given such a radical rebuild of the building's base, my question is: Would it be possible to increase the number of run-through tracks and platforms at Union Station? That's the key to increasing the station's capacity. If the core and supports of 222 are advantageously configured, it might be possible. I've not seen or heard any word on this one way or the other. Anybody know?

If it is possible, the other question is, would it be more or less expensive than digging a deep trench under Clinton for the West Loop Transportation Center and sticking in four HSR run-through tracks on the bottom level? Will 4 run-through tracks be enough? Which offers better operational characteristics such as grade, curvature, track layout; connections to other modes, proximity to amenities, etc.?

Again, I think that we must remember that the money we're talking about now is just coming from the stimulus package. Seeing as a lot of road projects are getting money as well, that could bode well for us and rail when it's time to renew the Transportation Bill. Also, don't forget the posibility of the Olympics. If we get them, that'll mean even more money. 3 possible sources: stimulus, transit bill and olympics.

Also, the fact that Ray LaHood is the Transportation Secretary, could really be helpful. Even though he's a suburban republican, from what I understand, he likes rail transportation.

During WWII, when long cross-country troop trains were regularly passing through Chicago, there was a scheme to connect tracks 17 & 26 to create an additional through track at the east end. Apparently the original caissons had been placed with that in mind, and I'm guessing 222 South Riverside didn't change that. There's another runthrough track that doesn't have platform access. Also there's a service roadway next to the river that's underused. With a few million dollars of work, I think there's room for a total of four through tracks next to the river.

To say Union Station is "at capacity" will provoke laughter from anyone who's ever stood on the platforms at Cologne or Bern Hbf, watching several dozen trains depart during a single hour. We've been so sloppy for so many decades that it seems easier to build an entirely new facility rather than change work rules or operating practices to efficiently use what we have.

Pedestrian congestion in the concourse is probably much more of an intractable problem. I'm not sure if it could be solved by moving a lot of the passenger waiting rooms and food service to the west end of the headhouse, or by pushing some facilities upward into the "ground floor" of 222 or the health club.

He's from Peoria - that's not (yet) a suburb of Chicago. Put high-speed rail from there to here, and maybe it could be, though. :-)

I agree. The moment I heard Ray LaHood was a candidate for Transportation Secretary I was pleased. I know LaHood's politics and his downstate district rather well so my opinion was very quickly solidified.

I can't believe we aren't talking about this yet...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...,7236624.story

So is this good move or a bad move? I really don't know anything about either of these two appointments.

Is Daley allergic to the idea of appointing any experts to anything, ever? The CTA is heading into probably its worst budget crisis in history and the person in charge of the organization has no idea what's going on there? What?

^ That's because Daley doesn't want to appoint anybody to any organization who isn't completely under his control

Ron Huberman goes to show that an infusion of outside talent can make a big positive difference. Let's hope Rodriguez stays the course.

Domain expertise is always good - but is only one of the qualities that make a good organizational leader, and arguably not the most important.

^^^ Yeah, I would think him not being a rail expert to be an advantage. The top manager of an organization should be an expert in management, not in the dedicated purpose of the organization. He has the knowledge of how to run a business (or organization) and lets face it, the CTA has to be run more like a business and less like a charity (cough losing 50 million a year to free rides for seniors cough) if we don't want to see massive service cuts.

I don't see how appointing somebody who has absolutely no knowledge whatsoever about an organization or the service that organization provides, during what is probably that organization's biggest crisis ever, is an advantage. You know, there are people on this earth who are both good managers AND know something about public transportation. The CTA is not some small town bus service, we can attract the best.

Huberman did good things for the CTA, but he wasn't thrown into the thick of things at a time like this--just a run of the mill crappy time for the CTA by comparison--and he had the common sense not to cast doubt on his ability by informing everybody at once that he knew nothing about the CTA. That does not inspire confidence. This is a guy who might have to go before Congress, might have to work closely with the governor and our senators (or senator, anyway) to figure out a solution for the CTA, and if he has to learn all about the CTA, how its budget works, and what the possibilities for change are within the next few weeks, he has a LOT of learning to do.

I have no idea how the policy of free rides for seniors that was forced by the former governor is evidence of bad management or a charity mentality on the part of the CTA. And by the way, public transit IS a public service, not a business.

More in article.

I am getting more than a little fed up with Chicago selling or leasing out money generating assets. I thought it was stupid for asshat Blago to try to sell and lease back the Thompson Center [1]. Thankfully that tactic failed.

I could live with the Skyway deal, I am against Midway, and the parking meters and garages was the last straw for me.



This really needs to stop for there will be no assets left at some point with no income coming from them. The one time payouts will have been more than blown away, way before some of these 99 year leases are expired.:hell:


I am not saying that some of these CTA assets are not worthy of sale but this continued sell off city assets and privatization is starting to piss me off.


Yea lets dump all of our assets ASAP we need the upfront money now! As an individual one can also get payday loans, loans on income tax returns, bulk payouts on legal settlements too. But those are only for the most desperate and ill informed getting their financial ass handed to them by loan sharks.

This short sightedness is rather corporate American. Screw the future, gimme now, and how is our quarter looking.





[1] Proposed sale

When he first came to office, Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich proposed selling the building to assuage the state budget.[4] The proposal was heavily criticized.[4] Lawmakers at first agreed to the plan,[5] but later a $200 million mortgage was agreed to instead, payable over 10 years.[6] The plan was declared unconstitutional by Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan in June 2004.[7] The plan was set aside, although it had already cost the state $532,000 in legal fees.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_R._Thompson_Center

I'm with you on the Skyway, Midway, Thompson Center retail, and the meters.

But this is different. It's odds and ends of surplus real estate that CTA should have sold off years ago. I hate to see them take fire sale prices, though, or sell property that could be leased for a good long-term income stream.

bnk, you single out Blagojevich regarding the Thompson Center, but let's not forget that the Skyway, Midway, and the parking meters are pure Daley.

:previous:


Yeah but I am loyal to my Avatar. It is one of my weaknesses.

The government shouldn't be holding onto this land. Why turn the CTA into a land bank? Let's put it back on the tax rolls and raise some money at the same time.

Exactly - this is very different. Many of the properties they're selling were bought for the Brown line rehab project and used as staging areas. You can see the properties for sale here. There really isn't a lot up for sale.

I agree with this in principle, but trying to do something with the land now? It's one of the worst real estate markets we've had in a long time. Seems like a waste. That land should have been leased or sold during the boom, not during this bust.

Haworthia, can you PM me next time we're going to have a big recession? There are some things I'll want to do in advance, and having that knowledge ahead of time would be very helpful.

It hardly would have taken a crystal ball to know that:

a) the CTA would be strapped for cash in the near future, and
b) that the real estate market had some hard times ahead

Suspecting that EITHER was going to be true should have had the CTA looking to either develop some of the land in an attempt to make a profit or sell some of the land to make some cash and/or diversify their investments.

Believe me when I say that I am generally one of the CTA's biggest supporters. However holding on to mass amounts of valuable real estate, passing on capitalizing during the biggest boom years this country has seen only to divest those assets when they were bottoming out? Not great business moves, IMO.

That said, much of this land was probably acquired pre-boom, so unless land values REALLY plummet, the CTA will still end up making a profit. Still, a lot of missed opportunities here, I think.

The sale of assets has been proposed in the MIDDLE of a collapse in real estate prices, when these assets are the LEAST valuable. Yes the CTA needs to plug holes in it budget. That need is from falling tax revenues. I recognize that need. But this really is the worst timing. I understand the urge to sell now, but it's a mistake to give up valuable assets at a discount (leasing of properties might make sense, but I think that's a separate issue).

But you bring up a good point. Why didn't the CTA do something useful with these properties when the market was strong? You don't need to be all that savvy to know you are in the midst of a boom. I may not be able to PM you when the economy will turn sour, but pretty much anyone can tell you when times are good. If the CTA had done this in good times, they could have used the revenue to fix slow zones instead of taking out bonds at the time they did. That was a missed opportunity.

There is also the argument that it's better to have transit oriented development near stations which could add potential transit customers than to just sit on the land. That could be a two fold way to increase revenue. There is merit to this argument, but I don't think there is any market for that right now. I think what is most likely to happen is someone with deep pockets will buy up the land and sit on it until the market recovers and then flip it. I don't think the CTA is likely to see any development on land they sell, so I think they are best served by sitting on the land themselves for the time being.

Only a dozen parcels are currently listed for sale, and several of them were needed until recently for Brown Line construction.

..

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=alwTE0Z5.1EA

Disgusting. It's way past time to clean house at the CTA. Now I know why people are protesting Huberman at the CPS HQ every other day.

I've lived here for 8 years, and always had faith in Daley while shaking my head at state government.

Now I'm just sick of it all, extremely disgusted is more like it. Is there NO ONE in this state who can stand up, snap their fingers, and draw attention to what's happening here??????? Not even the CTA, but just the god awful mess that has become Illinois...Cook County...Chicago.

For 7 years I was along with almost everything Daley did, now I'm not just questioning his leadership, but I'm starting to seriously doubt the man and his actions.

Blago...Burris....pulling Huberman right when he started getting things right. No one gives two shits about the actal CTA, it's all about people in charge and who's-who, what's in line next for the stars of Illinois politics.

If we blow this whole stimulus wad without getting anything because of sheer incompetence, I'm seriously going to think about setting up shop somewhere else. It's getting too depressing to live in this state, and yes I DO understand what's happening all across the country. It's still pathetic for Illinois, and inexcusable.

^ I'm as skeptical as you are, but the State won't let nearly a billion dollars in transportation projects slip away. I realize that there is concern because Daley lost $153 million for BRT from missing a deadline, but that was a very different situation (passage of a huge & complex public-private transaction as well as legislating highly unpopular parking rate tax hikes, followed by the Fed's unusual refusal to extend a deadline by 13 days due to changing of administrations). I'm reassured by this:

The transit projects must first be approved by the transportation committee of the Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning, which plans to vote on the projects Friday, said Diane Palmer, spokeswoman for the Regional Transportation Authority. Then, the CTA, Metra and Pace must file applications to the Federal Transit Administration, she said.

"When Gov. Quinn was sworn in, I told him the importance of getting deadlines met," LaHood said.

Quinn on Friday named Gary Hannig, a state representative from Litchfield, to replace Milton Sees, who was IDOT secretary under ex- Gov. Rod Blagojevich.

IDOT will submit its list "after our public comment period closes at the end of business today," department spokeswoman Marisa Kollias said Tuesday.

State transportation authorities have met with officials from the Federal Highway Administration and "they do not believe we are at risk yet to lose anything," Kollias said.

Jesus Christ! What does it take to submit your “wish list?” If this isn’t used as ammunition to get Daley out of office, then nothing can uproot this clown.

And for Quinn not to have made an issue out of this is equally disappointing.

You forgot to quote this fun tidbit from the article:

"In early February, Daley said he has a wish list of projects he wants funded. Unlike other leaders, however, Daley said he wouldn't tell the public because of concerns "the newspapers, the media is going to be ripping it apart," he said."

Does he even pretend to be held accountable democratically anymore?

Shizer!

Fuhrer Daley does not answer to anyone!

Seriously though, I kind of laughed at that...God forbid he have to EXPLAIN his use of taxpayer money.

If he goes public with it, then it becomes subject to the standard racially-charged City Council childish feces-flinging - or at least that's how I interpret his remarks. This is a snub of the Council moreso than of you or I or Joe Taxpayer, since we never really had a say anyway even if the list were public. As a lesser evil, I'd take Daley's politically-motivated project selection over that of the aldermen any day.

Blah blah blah. What exactly is Daley afraid of from the City Council? Perhaps it'll cost him the vote of one alderman on some frivolous proposal as he successfully strong-arms the other 49? He's the mayor, he was elected, and elected officials don't make lame excuses for keeping secrets from their constituents. If he's afraid of the media contesting his choices, he should get out of the mayor business.

You honestly think this is a better idea that having any community involvement? LaHood could easily reject Daley’s plan as is, and in all likelihood it has a higher chance at failure the less public vetting occurs on it.

These are SHOVEL READY projects. The Alderman shouldn’t be left out in the cold on this. We have elected officials for a reason.

I don't think he's afraid of the media contesting his choices. That's just what he said, not necessarily what he means. The media in this town tend to join in the cheerleading/promotion of his initiatives when it is made clear that they should (e.g. Olympics).

Community involvement would seem to be more important before projects are identified and designed. The stimulus is money going out the door to start construction on projects that are already at 100% design.

Either way, I'm pretty sure we aren't getting the whole story behind what's cooking in City Hall, Springfield, and DOT, and I see no reason to take Daley's weird remarks at face value. I could speculate 100 different scenarios regarding who is pulling whose strings, but really we don't know. I'd be surprised if certain Aldermen didn't know exactly which projects in their ward will be happening, with others being deliberately kept in the dark. And again, for as much as I could gripe about Daley, the notion of our Aldermen making important decisions is even more terrifying.

Yes, it is better. The "community" doesn't know what's best for it when it comes to some things. For example, do you think anyone would support it if Daley wanted 500 million for a new EL line up Ashland? People would freak out because they don't want the noise, yet having an El line that would be great for the communities. Daley has done nothing but improve Chicago, Democracy is overrated, get over it...

Did anyone see the Peoples Republic of Capitalism w/ Ted Koppel on Discovery Channel? It has an American architect working in China pretty much saying that if China had a true democratic government, the huge scaled development and rampant construction that has grown the Chinese economy by leaps and bounds probably would never happen. Sound familiar? He's describing 'don't tread on me' - 'Not In My Back Yard' America.

Okay, this is getting to be a little much for the Chicago Transit thread. Surely there is somewhere else to rally against democracy.

Ok Stalin... Easy to say democracy is overrated when you live in one.

So you admit your criticisms about Daley and Chicago being undemocratic are complete BS then? :D

And how is thinking Democracy is overrated in anyway similar to Stalin's views? I'm pretty sure democracy never even crossed his mind. Remember, thinking its overrated implies you still think its good, but not as great as everyone says it is...

Anyhow, Yay for transit! I think we need some new El lines what do you guys think? :)