The deal to trade the theater to the state in return for state pushing through a renewal of MSG's operating agreement is a done deal. Whether the state can/will come up with the money to actually execute the project to use this space to rework Penn Station is up in the air. Cuomo seems to be planning on it.

^ How are you so sure it's a done deal?

Because they wouldn't be making such a big announcement if there wasn't an agreement.

I like that people are thinking about upgrades to Penn but I think this is still short sighted. So we built a grand vaulted glass entry way where you can revel in all that open space for the 12 seconds it takes for you to walk from the door to the escalator that then takes you back down into the same clustered rat's nest that has existed since the 60s. The issue with Penn isn't how you enter the building, it's how you enter the trains, and where you wait. As long as the ugly circle and box remain above there's just nothing you can do to fix it.

Any other society on earth, even the democtatic friends of ours, would have seized MSG with fair compensation to the owners and that would have been that. Your taking about something absolutely critical to the economic health of the city and region and we've let an entertainment coliseum sit on top of it for the benefit of one family. Absurd.

Even in the moyinahan part, there will still be the rats nest of platforms underground. You can't do anything about that. Maybe if you had glass floors or something the platforms below would get light.

The old Penn seems to have got some higher ceilings now which should improve the experience.

At least the Amtrak part, which will be in the new Monyihan section, will be a fitting entrance to NYC from other cities with its high glass roof.

The old Penn will remain mostly for comutter traffic. Not ideal, but at least it's not going to be as bad as before and they have raised the ceilings in the concourse as the renderings show, with new higher class restaurants and shops added.

People are forgetting that the new Penn South will also be required when Gateway happens. The complex as a whole will be just massive. It will be a huge trifecta of terminals linked by tunnels together.

and from the rendering, msg will be reclad at least on that side. It looks far better there.

We need a moonshot to give NYC the grand Penn Station it deserves... because this is not it.

The other problem remains the garbage sitting on top - One Penn Plaza and MSG are revolting looking structures.

One Penn is the tall black glass clad building spanning 33rd and 34th streets. It was outside the original Penn space and I think it's a good looking building that should stay. I think you're thinking of 2 Penn Plaza, the ugly 60s box that sits just to the west of MSG. That needs to go. I think if you consider the location of the tracks, it could be possible to build a new grand Penn Station that still includes a large office complex on the eastern end, where that building currently resides, but the offices would need to start a few stories up to allow room for a vaulted entry hall from 7th Ave.

Regarding the 'rat's nest' of platforms, there are ways to open the space up. The original Penn design had most of the platforms open from above, like an indoor train shed. Smart acoustical engineering could be applied to dampen and muffle the sounds of the trains (mostly just the the humm/roar of the AC fans) so as to not overwhelm the open space. Direct sunlight reaching at least part of the platform would be huge.

^ correct. one penn is north and outside the footprint of the original penn station. it looks fine anyway. two penn is the ugly one that sits on the site, to the east side of msg. i am surprized it isn't coming down with this new cuomo plan. you could bring a lot of light in below via that cheap pos bldg's space. :shrug:

One Penn looks like it's gonna get a reclad based on some of the renderings released by the governor.

The only thing that strikes me as stupid is the massive new grand entrance that just leads you down to the basement. Travelers won't be lingering around much there, they will be on their way down the stairs. Why spend so much money on a big glass entry way when you are going to end up down in the bowels of the earth under low ceilings once again?

No surprise here. The sun might explode before we get a new Penn. :(
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Cuomo’s Penn Station plan already falling behind schedule :haha:

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http://www.capitalnewyork.com/articl...ehind-schedule

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Some more renderings:

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...zeen_936_2.jpg

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...zeen_936_1.jpg

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...zeen_784_1.jpg

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...M_dezeen_1.jpg

http://static.dezeen.com/uploads/201...M_dezeen_2.jpg
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http://www.dezeen.com/2016/01/15/som...sion-new-york/

The problem with open platforms is trains dumping all of their heat directly into the concourse. With Penn Station as it is now, passengers waiting for trains are mostly shielded from that.

They never made such an announcement. It's a proposal, one of many, and is getting attacked from all sides, because the theater isn't the problem, it's the entire MSG that's the problem.

You cannot fix Penn Station without moving MSG. Simple as that. It's like putting lipstick on a pig. That's why most people agree MSG has to move.

The plans for that were in place 8-10 years ago.. MSG was going to move to the west side of the Farley Post office, The Old garden torn down to accommodate a new Penn Station and supertall!

Too bad they didn't go forward with it.. stalled out and the Dolans then dropped 1 billion dollars on a three yer gutting and rebuild of the interior of MSG.

Wasted opportunity... like always when it comes to too many players involved.

Penn Station Overhaul Is Now One Step Closer to Happening

Monday, January 25, 2016
Amy Plitt

Is that a problem though? Heat rises, so open platforms would be great to heat the space above. Looking at the moynihan station renders, there are a few floors of space above the terminal concourse which I believe currently are mostly vacant space. You could fairly easily design a cooling system designed to vent excess heat and cool the air when necessary.

Why waste that excess heat when you can recapture it to heat the terminal? There are plenty of other examples of large enclosed spaces which rely on operational use for heating and air circulation, the mall of america is a good example.

im not sure that the platforms is the issue but the area above where the waiting areas adn corridors are..

most commuters and travelers spend very little time on the platforms themselves. when the train is called you proceed to the track and board your train.. you spend all your time in teh waiting areas and moving between LIRR/Amtrak and NJT and the subway..

i think there are significant opportunities to expand the crowd areas via a shed on the north side between the two Penn Plazas and where the MSG theater now resides.

i like this compromise to keep MSG where it is and blow out the Theater at MSG which is somewhat of an eyesore across from the post office.

Move the AMTRACK crowd to the post office.. along with most of the locker rooms and staffing infrastructure and open the old AMTRAK waiting area up tp the north. would take some creative discussions with KMART across the street but something could be developed. plenty of room for NJT/LIRR and Metro North

People smarter than I am have concluded that you could reduce Penn Station to a smaller number of wider platforms, and move people more efficiently than the current setup.

https://pedestrianobservations.wordp...#comment-17519

Interesting link. Thanks. Penn Station's platforms are such a mess. More so than the mess above it.

This proposal is an absolute non starter. The land over the tracks/platforms is too valuable not to build on it.

I do like that the author is thinking about track layout, which as he points out, is noticeably absent from these other proposals. I think you could definitely speed up throughput if you could reconfigure the tracks. I liked the ideal in the comments of uneven 'spanish style' platforms. That is to say, a wider platform on one side and a smaller platform on the other. An AM peak train would open it's door towards the wider platform to unload, while passengers queued up for the return trip would be waiting on the narrower platform for the doors to open there. A PM peak train would arrive and unload first onto the narrow platform, then opening the doors to the wider platform full of waiting passengers.

One issue though is that savvy commuters (of which there are many) would quickly figure this system out. If a departure is announced on platform 2 for example, a savvy commuter may instead go to platform 1 and push against the exiting steam in order to get priority access to the seats before the doors are opened on platform 2. Controlling escalator direction could discourage that, but staircases will ensure it always happens...

BIG Plans Revealed For Two Penn Plaza Transformation

Nikolai Fedak
March 16, 2016

Is it just me or is Bjarke Ingels designing every large project nowadays?

I'd much prefer SHoP. This loos like rubbish, and its one of the few times I'm vocal about a design. Something about it I just can't put my finger on it, but its not sitting well with me. :shrug:


They need to get some of the facade treatment designs that where used for that Metlife redesign.

Truth be told, BIG only has so much to work with. MSG is an unmitigated, unholy abortion of design.

BIG's plan looks like shit. Even with the turd they have to work with, this can absolutely be done better.

It's quite creative, to say the least. I rather like the way it feels like the shaft façade can't contain the base.

Yeah, same with me. The base gives it such a uniqueness that I don't recall seeing before. Should make a great pedestrian view!
However, the top portion could be more than a box with a textured curtain.

I actually think it's quite creative. I've thought of a similar solution for Union Station in Chicago. Penn Station and One Penn Plaza are both immovable objects, so BIG tried to "create" open space between the two by reducing the tower at its base to just a structural skeleton. The facade blowout also creates a canopy to provide a big front porch for Penn. Not sure I dig the ruffle, but the concept is solid.

In BIG's shoes, I would removed the floorplates close to the bottom entirely and open up the lower levels of the building to create a grand space full of columns. The office lobby would just be a small floating platform inside this space. You could (maybe) make up the lost square footage by adding to the top of the building.

I won't waste a bunch of words. It is creative — but it is also stupid. A gimmick design that people will hate in 20 years because it looks ridiculous.

BIG please go back to Europe....

As much as i love his design philosophy, I'm unfortunately getting more and more annoyed with his New York designs. Ingels is great at designing for European cities, where he is free to establish new and original skyscraper aesthetics in places which don't traditionally have skyscrapers, but New York actually does have skyscrapers, and, if i may add, a highly established local aesthetic for them...

This means that historically, a lot of the more original, out of the box (literally) designs don't age well in NY. I seriously wonder about the future of the BIG Pyramid, for instance. It is a gorgeous building, don't misunderstand me.. but in the future, when it is surrounded on three sides by tall, most likely rectangular buildings, will it still look so good?

The best architects for NY are ones who are able to use Gotham's sharply angular and subtly ominous aesthetic as an asset (SHoP has this perfected Down. To. The. Tee.), rather than see it simply as the barrier of tradition begging to be broken.

My conclusion? What Ingels needs to do is move to LA. He would be able to do there what he has done so well in Europe: create the high-rise aesthetic for a currently low-rise city. If he really worked his magic in SoCal, his influence on the urban fabric of the region could last for hundreds of years.

[Ingels also has something that could give him a lot more power in LA than other architects, which is his deeply human-oriented style and ability to connect with the general population. When people see Ingels's designs and press conferences and youtube videos, its as if they immediately know he's on their side. Likablility is unfortunately something that is very rare in the architecture and development community (especially in LA), and Ingels practically oozes it. If theres anyone on this planet who can break the NIMBYs of LA, it might very well be Bjarke Ingels.]

I agree. We need more Gotham like towers. SHoP understands this. Ingels thinks more in the future while SHoP combines element that exist in the city, but only translates them to the 21st Century.

I know I am preaching to the choir here, but the only way to truly bring back Penn is to raze the tower and stadium that sits on top of it.

I'd love a modern take on the old Penn Station. Perhaps all the architecture geeks should write their representatives and city officials to tell them this. Unlike years past, there seems to be genuine interest on a 1st rate rehabilitation of the area.

Yes and yes

Eh, the way I think about it is that the station is bursting out of the '70s box that's imprisoned it for a generation. In which context (1) the '70s look of the shaft needs to be maintained, and (2)
the success or failure of the proposal will be based almost entirely on how airy they make the waiting area feel. Succeed, and they've made an iconic new waiting area for New York, one that actually manages to respond to the site in a deeply visceral way. Fail, and we're right back to where we started.

Looks like Marilyn Monroe's skirt getting blown up by the subway vent.

The current Penn Station invokes similar feelings, except instead of Monroe, it's a homeless meth addicts tattered frock that is blown sky high.

All things considered, I think your vision is far more appealing.

:previous: Cleverest comment of the day.

A slightly older article but still interesting to read.

Read more: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/28/11...rak-nj-transit

Inside America's worst train station
What makes New York's Penn Station suck so bad?

^^It seems like this "empire station complex" plan, is really just polishing the turd, to use his analogy. Why are they spending money to revamp this station when MSG only has another ~20 years left?? When MSG goes, they will just have to tear everything back out

^Agreed!

Why do people even give a shit about making it better looking? It's a train station, not an art gallery. I'm there for the minimum amount of time possible no matter what it looks like. The Billions of dollars spent on these sort of, "lipstick on a pig" improvements could help huge numbers of people if plowed into new subway lines like SAS and Utica Ave. instead of making a bunch of pretty train stations that don't do anything to help out commuters and are just there to make the city look nicer to tourists.

Why build an airport terminal beyond a small grey box with the minimum required space to be functional? Why bother painting the walls or hanging artwork in an office, I'm there to work and get out. Why aren't all cars identical aerodynamic boxes without wasteful aesthetic designs, after all, they're just a means to get from point a to point b. Why don't we all just wear the same optimal clothing of a uniform color and style, since it's just a means to insulate our bodies from the environment and nothing more. :dancing:

Here here.

Hell if I know, I wonder the same all the time. The amount of money wasted on this shit while millions of people suffer and die is absurd.

I can't tell if you're being serious and I don't think I'm the only one.