O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C
 

The NCC has rather suddenly called a press conference for 11 AM regarding the western LRT route options....

Really... I wonder if its bad or good...

Knowing the previous stances of the NCC it wont be good, but it could be that them and the City have come to an agreement that costs a few hundred million more to bury it all and allow the 'barrier' to the waterfront to continue to be the parkway. :hell:

One of the city hall reporters says the people around city hall don't appear to know what they are planning to announce...

That makes me less optimistic than I was the first time. I am guessing it will be either "no" or some sort of a list of conditions.

Ever since Kristmanson came into the picture, the NCC has been completely silent on the issue with Kristmanson dodging the question ever time it came up. I wonder what's about to happen... with municipal election season over, but federal election season just ramping up, it's an interesting time.

The other thing is we seem to have entered an era of what John Baird wants in Ottawa, John Baird gets. He has remaned parkways, given a chunk of land to the hospital etc..

We have had a couple LRT elections now (city and provincial). I am wondering if there has been some reading the tea leaves and they have felt they better put this issue to bed in some form.

Basically it is sounding like they want the city to use a route through Rochester Field.

Reading the tweets as they come in. Basically the NCC is telling the city to look into the Rochester field alignment which the city has previously stated would cost millions more.
This picture shows the city's routing vs the NCC's routing: https://twitter.com/mpearson78/status/535829646349447168

NCC is also open to "deep tunnel" along the SJAM alignment

Apparently the NCC is claiming the two options cost the same. Not exactly sure how.

Interesting that on the federal side, no politicians present. Just a bunch of bureaucrats.

Probably because none of the local CPC MPs want their names attached to this either way. If their constituents complain about the outcome they can point to the "arm's length" NCC to assert blame.

That has always been my preferred alignment, with a station on Richmond at Maplelawn/Denbury Ave. Dominion Station is useless in my opinion as a transit hub because you can't send buses down there. Having a station anchoring the far end of Westboro Village can establish a strong pedestrian corridor along Richmond with a spur at McRae towards Westboro Station. It may cost millions more, but in terms of city building it is a logical and smarter approach.

The city really botched up the estimates for this option, I almost think they were trying to sabotage it by putting a significantly higher cost to it.

Probably because the NCC's version of the CPR routing is to sink it well into the water table, thus its costs would rise, bringing it to the same cost as a Rochester-Richmond routing.

Basically David Reevely figured it out: They cost about the same if the route runs along the surface on Byron corridor.

I suspect some people in the neighbourhood may take issue with that idea. They like the "linear park" (aka city owned dog bathroom facility)

Putting a surface route through the Byron would be difficult to do without level crossings. Putting in level crossings would constrain capacity & speed and is not desirable.

I still firmly believe the Richmond Underground route is ideal, and I think Watson needs to take advantage of the upcoming federal election to push for a federal cabinet override of the NCC.

I'd go a couple more steps than that.

Rochester Field should be developed as a TOD around the station.

I'd move Westboro Station westwards to Churchill (east side) so that Westboro Station actually lines up with Westboro's main cross street and where the station would have gone were it not designed with an access ramp. Besides making the station more central to Westboro, it would also allow the new station to be built without interfering with the operation of the current station until very late in the conversion process.

The current Westboro Station property could then be incorporated into the redevelopment of the Health Canada property to its north, with its two bridges serving as accesses.

The extra distance between the new Westboro Station and Tunney's Pasture would now permit the addition of a station at Island Park Drive, the last major cross street in the area, and one which would better serve the condo craze in the Island Park-Richmond/Wellington area.

It does seem that way.

Wasn't the purpose of that "linear park" a long-identified rapid transit corridor that was never built?

It can be done without any grade crossings, but requires a few things:

1) Either a tunnel or an elevated guideway would be necessary at Rochester Field, allowing it to cross Richmond Road, over or under the Richmond/Fraser intersection, before settling to the surface.

2) To allow for a surface alignment (lowest cost), closures would be required at all of Westminster, Windermere, Wavell, Redwood, Lockhart and Ancaster Avenues (i.e. forced onto Byron - must access Richmond Road at Woodroffe or at an edge). One or two pedestrian overpasses could be built though to maintain pedestrian access across.

3) It would need to descend underneath Woodroffe Avenue, likely in a open-air depressed alignment with an overpass (perhaps incorporating a below-grade station), as that road cannot be closed off.

4) A bored tunnel would be ideal (no property acquisition required) to rejoin at Lincoln Fields, descending into the tunnel before Richardson Avenue and rejoining just before the current Transitway station. A cut-and-cover tunnel or elevated guideway would require property acquisition or major road closures, and a surface alignment would be too problematic there.

5) The linear park is, on average, 22 metres wide. That would easily allow for a bicycle/pedestrian pathway, and some greenspace, at both the Byron and Richmond ends, except perhaps in the vicinity of the stations.

http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/property-manage...awas-western-light-rail-transit-corridor

Here's a quick map I made showing pedestrian crossings of the Parkway in the area...

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8665/15659938977_8c4df85b63_b.jpg

edit:

Legend
Blue Crosswalk icons - protected pedestrian crossings
Blue dotted line - measures distance between New Orchard and Lanark Ave crossings
Yellow Diamond - Partial Crossings and Richmond and Carling (have to walk to an intersection to cross)
Yellow Cars - Intersection Crossing with unprotected merge lane crossing

I don't remember reading anything about the station locations. I don't think the NCC brought that up.

I'm impartial on the alignment in that area but I find the NCC's reasoning hypocritical. That talk about protecting access to the shoreline when there's a 4 lane highway already impeding access is pretty rich. And converting the Byron linear park to surface LRT just removes someone else's green space. The NCC's grass is sacred though.

Hard to believe the NCC considers an access point every kilometer (or more) as 'unimpeded continuous access'.

There is a 2.9 KM gap between the pedestrian crossings in the area (blue crosswalk icons), the blue dots are measuring the distance. (I went back and put in a legend)

Sorry, I read that map wrong... it's even worse than I thought. I never noticed the access points were that sparse when I occasionally bike in the area.

So what the fuck is the NCC complaining about then? There's barely any access as it is.

Is this just a useless delay tactic to punt the issue until after the next election?

The City's plan somehow reduces the non-existent unimpeded continuous access to the Ottawa River shoreline by increasing the number of pedestrian crossings of this stretch of the Parkway from 0 to 1 (at Cleary)

The only reduction of unimpeded continuous access to the corridor lands is in front of Rochester Field, but people could still access the corridor lands on either side from Dominion Station and through the fence gate at Skead. Yet the NCC doesn't have a position for the Rochester Field option on whether it should be surface or buried :shrug:

Not to mention that Rochester Field doesn't even have a pathway through it to the parkway lands, only dirt paths and some mowed grass.

How is crossing a road which tends to flow at about 80 km/h "unimpeded pedestrian access"?

It's a much easier extension, since it would be entirely within City-owned property for the most part (either side of the 174 or the 174 median).

Better yet: a federal abolition of the NCC.

Western Corridor LRT EA - Bayview to Baseline
 

Mayor Watson slams NCC over LRT demands

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 21, 2014, Last Updated: November 21, 2014 10:01 PM EST

Video

The city says it has been blindsided by the National Capital Commission’s demand that transit planners reconsider the proposed route for western expansion of LRT.

At a Friday news conference convened minutes after Mayor Jim Watson and other senior city officials had been advised of its position, the NCC told reporters that Rochester Field on Richmond Road in Westboro, which it owns, is a better option for light rail than along the Ottawa River.

If, alternatively, the city is determined to have the light rail route run alongside the river, it should dig a deep tunnel for the trains, the NCC said.

The NCC said it supports the city’s western light rail transit project, but the two sides remain at odds over the 1.2-kilometre section of the proposed $980-million Richmond Underground line that would cross NCC land along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway.

The city wants to run the line through a trench, only 700 metres of which would be partly covered. But the NCC board declared in June 2013 that it would not approve the line unless it allows unimpeded access to the Ottawa River shoreline and has a “minimal visual impact” on the parkway corridor landscape.

At the same time, the board asked the city to present a detailed proposal for placing the entire 1.2-kilometre portion between Dominion and Cleary stations underground.

Now, based on what the NCC says is an “in-depth analysis” of data provided by the city in January, the NCC has concluded that the partially buried option on the parkway, which was put forward by the city for its ongoing environmental assessment study, doesn’t meet two conditions.

The NCC’s CEO, Mark Kristmanson, says the Rochester Field route provides a “comparable option” to study in the environmental assessment and would be similar in price to the city’s preferred option.

“The cost calculations come out roughly comparable based on the city’s own analysis,” he said.

However, it appears that the NCC hasn’t taken into account where the train would go after leaving the field.

There are only two options for that part of the route: the train would have to either run along Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Parkway, both in the heart of Westboro, which would be unpalatable to the community.

https://postmediaottawacitizen2.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/1122westernlrt-gr3.jpg

When the city studied the Rochester Field option in the past, it looked at running the train underground — the only option nearby residents would have accepted — and estimated the cost to be $1.7 billion. The city also found a tunnel along the river would vastly exceed its budget for the project.

NCC chair Russ Mills spoke with Mayor Jim Watson before Friday’s announcement, while Kristmanson phoned city manager Kent Kirkpatrick.

But city officials were not invited to the morning media briefing at the NCC’s Elgin Street headquarters and at least one city employee was turned away at the door.

Keith Egli, who chairs the city’s transportation committee, said later the city wants the NCC to share the analysis on which the board based its decision.

He added the city has a “clear mandate” to proceed with western light rail expansion.

“The people in Ottawa very clearly sent the message, ‘We want light rail, we want it out the west end, so we have to find a way to get there and in order to do that, we have to continue to talk with the NCC, but they have to share,” Egli said. “They have to tell us where they’re coming from, what their focus is, what their lens is in order to come to what they said, and we just don’t know that.”

When asked if there were possible political undertones to Friday’s surprise announcement by the NCC, Egli admitted the process was “out of the ordinary.”

The NCC board held an in-camera meeting this week, relied on information the city hasn’t seen to make its decision, then held a media event with little notice, Egli said, adding city staff had been planning to meet with the NCC in January to discuss the file. Friday’s announcement appears to have circumvented that.

“All bureaucracies have political masters, and you have to think that maybe that was part of the discussion,” Egli said.

But a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird — who is also an Ottawa MP and the senior minister for the National Capital Region — says politics isn’t at play.

“The NCC has an important responsibility to protect our nation’s capital and its green space. The city’s job is public transit,” said Adam Hodge in an email.

“We remain confident that both the NCC and the City of Ottawa can come to a decision that is beneficial for the people of Ottawa.”

Watson was in Toronto for meetings Friday. In a statement, the mayor said key issues affecting the city should not be discussed “at a secret meeting of an unelected, unaccountable body like the NCC.”

“We were promised a chance to appear before the NCC board in early 2015 to present a progress report. The NCC simply ignored their commitment to this and held a closed door meeting, jeopardizing our city’s transit plans,” Watson’s statement said.

Kristmanson dismissed suggestions the NCC blindsided the city, saying, “There will be lots of time to talk to the city about this,” he said.

If funding comes through, Phase 2 of the LRT would not be complete until 2023.

With files from Joanne Chianello

[email protected]
Twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ncc-demands-new-options-for-western-lrt

The city hasn't exactly shared their details as to why an extra 500 metres of shallow tunnel under Richmond would cost $800 million, a cost exceeding that of the entire 2.5 km downtown tunnel ($681 million), and without a deep station involved.

I think key to the semantics of their interpretation is that the NCC considers the south side of the Parkway as part of the corridor lands, and they make no differentiation between those lands and the Parkway itself. It's not specifically about crossing the parkway, it's about access to any part of the corridor lands.

Wait - this is all so frigging confusing.

What was the route the city was going for? Or had decided on before this strong-arm announcement from the NCC goons?

There's been so much debate on options, I've forgotten what options were taken off the table or kept on.

I can see why the buried close-to-river option is an expensive no-go (water table), but you raise an interesting point. God, this is a confusing project.

NCC's bizarre LRT grandstanding smacks of politics

Joanne Chianello, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 21, 2014, Last Updated: November 21, 2014 9:45 PM EST

For a while there, it really did seem as if the National Capital Commission and the city of Ottawa had kissed and made up, that they had patched their often-rocky relationship and were ready to, if not always agree, at least put on a good face for the sake of the kids of the capital.

The NCC’s CEO Mark Kristmanson — who’s made such a positive impression on the city in the past nine months with his singular brand of pragmatic braininess — has brought a new sense of co-operation and openness to the NCC’s role in the capital region.

Kristmanson has repeatedly said he was sure agreement would eventually be reached over the controversial 1.2-kilometre stretch of federal land adjacent to the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway that the city wanted to use for its western LRT extension. Many of us believed that to be the case. Until Friday.

That’s when the NCC held a confusing news conference that threatened to undo months of hard work by staff and dash what had been growing goodwill toward the NCC.

Despite the protestations to the contrary of Minister John Baird’s office — Baird is the ranking local Tory MP who’s effectively in charge of the NCC — this meeting smacked of political interference.

NCC officials phoned Mayor Jim Watson and city manager Kent Kirkpatrick a mere half hour before the news conference to tell them what was happening. Not only were city officials not invited, the city’s manager of media relations was actively stopped from simply sitting in on the event to take notes.

This is not how a city partner acts.

The NCC demanded two things: that the city reconsider running light rail across (or perhaps under) Rochester Field in Westboro instead of along the parkway; and that the city provide a proper estimate for fully burying that 1.2-kilometre stretch along the parkway.

These sounds like reasonable requests, until you realize they are not.

Let’s take the last request first. City staff was already working on an estimate for the tunnel — which will surely run in the hundreds of millions — and planning to report the findings to the NCC at the board’s January meeting. Why should the NCC make this demand now when it knows full well it will get an answer in two months’ time?

As for the Rochester Field option, the NCC claims it wouldn’t cost any more than the city’s current budget of $980 million for the western LRT extension. But that can only be the case if the city runs light rail along the surface of Richmond Road or the Byron Linear Park, both of which are complete non-starters in the Westboro community. Burying the train underground would have almost doubled the price of the western extension to $1.7 billion, according to city estimates.

It’s nice to know that the NCC is worried about “impeding” the sightlines along its own roads, with apparent disregard for the sightlines along city streets in established neighbourhoods.

The NCC is also being somewhat disingenuous with its demands for “unimpeded public access to the shoreline” of the Ottawa River. What is a four-lane freeway — known as the parkway — if not an impediment to shoreline access? In fact, the city is planning to partially bury 700 metres of the planned 1.2-kilometre stretch near the parkway, with the aim of having only one metre of the train be above ground. And that will be covered by a grassy berm over which people could walk. Indeed, according to city officials who say they’ve been meeting regularly with NCC staff, there was talk of partially burying more of the track.

The oddest thing about Friday’s announcement is the timing. The NCC and the city had agreed to review the options and additional data at its January meeting. Why this hastily planned, poorly executed news conference?

Could it be politics? There’s long-standing acrimony between Baird and Watson. Earlier this week, Watson sharply criticized the federal government for not committing to a new science and technology museum (the feds are investing more than $80 million in the existing building).

And though there’s no indication that Friday’s bizarre news conference was any kind of payback, these type of antics are just the sort of thing that lead people to call for the dissolution of the NCC.

While that’s premature, what we need is to take unaccountable politics out the NCC.

Then we could get on with city-building solutions based on sound planning rather than partisan whim.

[email protected]
twitter.com/jchianello

http://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/1122-col-chianello

Westboro community group seeks to protect Byron Linear Park

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 21, 2014, Last Updated: November 21, 2014 9:32 PM EST

It didn’t take long for a community group in Westboro to come out against the National Capital Commission’s latest position on the western expansion of the LRT.

An email blast from Neighbours for Smart Western Rail — sent less than three hours after the NCC’s news conference Friday — said a “surprise decision” could potentially put the Byron Linear Park in jeopardy.

“The NCC is offering up Rochester Field for the use of the commuter train. After the train leaves Rochester Field, it ends up along Richmond Road. Burying the train under Richmond Road was one of the city’s most expensive options at $1.7 billion, and one that the city rejected. This begs the question, if there is no money to bury it, where exactly is the train supposed to go? The answer is right on the surface of Richmond Road and Byron Linear Park,” the email said.

The NCC said Friday that the Richmond Road park, which it owns, is a better option for light rail than along the Ottawa River.

But it appears the NCC hasn’t taken into account where the train would go after leaving the field and that concerns those who want to see the Byron Linear Park remain as it is today — a long strip of greenspace with mature trees and a multi-use path popular with joggers, cyclists and dog-walkers alike.

“Our community has been loud and clear about our commitment to protecting Byron Linear Park, the wonderful pedestrian artery of our community,’” the email said.

It then encourages readers to send emails to numerous municipal, provincial and federal officials, including Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson and MPs John Baird and Paul Dewar.

Jeff Leiper, the councillor-elect for Kitchissippi ward — which includes the lands in question — said he’s still digesting the NCC’s announcement.

But he reiterated that at-grade or half-buried rail service in that area would not be acceptable to him or the community.

He campaigned on a fully buried tunnel along the Sir John A. Macdonald Parkway — something the city said Friday is prohibitively expensive.

The councillor-elect, who is to be sworn in Dec. 1, said he’s interested in exploring costing options and understanding what the implications of the NCC decision are.

“I don’t think we can jump to any conclusions about what the city might do at this point,” Leiper said.

[email protected]
Twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...group-seeks-to-protect-byron-linear-park

Oh, this should be good. Leiper had better make it right! Neighbours are angry!

As for that Chianello column, while nothing at this point can be ruled out, she doesn't have any evidence to support her 'feeling' that Baird is trying to stick it to Watson. There's literally nothing but speculation based on the fact that the two guys probably don't like each other.

She doesn't map out why it would be beneficial for Baird other than stating her feeling.

If the NCC made the western line more expensive, wouldn't it just mean the city would end up asking for more from the feds to build Phase 2? And, being that it's an election year, that would just make it more expensive to buy support for Baird and Gallipeau (in Orleans) with a limited surplus.

I know how it is in Ottawa, but I don't see how this would be to anyone in the CPC's advantage. As for the NCC being pompous pricks, well, I'm used to seeing that.

Lets keep in mind, as well, that the NCC is its own (snobby, prick-like) entity, and their makeup (and status quo mandate) doesn't magically change when a different party is in power.

God damn it, it would be cheaper to fly every single west-of-Westboro NIMBY, every NCC board member and every councillor to Calgary and Edmonton and put them up for a week so they can see what LRT actually looks like than continue on with this nonsense.

Whether on the CPR corridor or on Richmond, everyone seems to have it in their heads that LRT is a "barrier" and needs to be a barrier.

What options are left, subway under Richmond Road? The most expensive option of all?

Agreed, pure speculation and hard to see what the motive would be. Perhaps the Feds want to muddy the waters so the city wont be ready before the election to even ask for money. Or kill the western extension at this point and have even more money for the east which is where the real vulnerable CPC seat is.

Can you imagine the city continuing on with building and expanding the LRT system and just ignore the west? Have trains stop at Tunney's Pasture and future phases to add to inner-city central, east, south neighbourhoods? LOL

Maybe then residents would see the benefits of transit and LRT and they too would put pressure on the NCC to let them know that their demands are getting unreasonable and that the west wants LRT.

Well this all speaks to perspective. 700 metres of buried LRT behind Westboro 'along' the greenspace is much more of a barrier than a Parkway running the entire length of the greenspace with cars every few seconds traveling an average speed of 80Kph. Whereas a train through there, with the exception of the buried 700 metres, and the likely over passes that would be constructed, every 10 minutes is so traveling at the same speed much worse.
As for the added expense, the entirety of the NCCs preferred alternate would have to be buried because despite Rochester Field being offered, it would still have to remain as a green space thus the LRT would be buried from Dominion until just before Lincoln Fields instead of from just before Cleary to just before Lincoln Fields. I would assume that the ground is not the best for digging in and likely due to the water table would need to be deeper than that of the DTT.
Ideally he City and the NCC would be able to agree on one or the other with the Feds ponying up the extra cash, but that is highly unlikely, so as long as we get our act together by 2017, we should be ok...

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm kind of with the NCC on this one.

Firstly, I'll call them out by saying that the "impeded access" to the waterfront argument is nonsense.

However, the visual pollution argument is very valid. The parkway is the city's most scenic stretch and must be protected. Forgive my ignorance here, but I'm assuming the LRT will operate via permanent overhead wire fixtures. If so, then I wouldn't want this infrastructure to visually degrade what is an otherwise stunning stretch of the city. It is for this reason that I'm all for burying this stretch. I don't pretend to know the logistics of doing that, and I know that the costs will be much higher, but I think the end result will be better.

If I need to shell out a few more bucks on my already extensive property taxes to make that happen, then so be it. Great transit makes great cities and for me it's a worthwhile investment. However, let's not allow the governments to get off scott free here. For the Feds, lets pick their preferred plan and then tell them to pony up the money to make it happen. As for Kathleen and co. at Queen's Park, I remember quite well your promises to Ottawa for transit funding; time to put your hands in your pockets.

But whose view is being affected? The line is on the south side of the Parkway travel lanes, in the opposite direction of the water, so it can't really be anyone travelling on the Parkway. Similarly anyone on the river shore pathway will not be affected. And even if there was some case there, planting a few lines of trees between the parkway and the rail line where they don't already exist would largely get rid of that issue.

The one group that would be affected are those who own the townhouses along there. But then... why does the NCC care about that particular group of property owners and not, say, those along Richmond or Byron?

Truth be told, it's not all that "stunning" along this particular stretch anyway. The growth of shoreline trees has largely screened the vista in the summer months if you're travelling at 60+ km/h.

This just isn't a stunning view, even if it once was. It's basically just grass and trees now. It's a bit more "stunning" further east at Westboro Beach and also near Pinecrest Creek, but not here.

I see the NCC's point on this one, too, but not for aesthetic or waterfront access reasons. I just think that transit belongs on Richmond. Heck if it weren't for Tunneys Pasture, a subway on the West Wellington-Richmond corridor would be far more desirable than the Scott Street trench. This is a chance to actually steer it back towards that axis, closer to a walkable main street.

Using Rochester Field and the Byron strip was part of the long range RMOC plan for the Transitway, they would not have sold the bits of railway ROW in the 1980s otherwise (or maybe they did it deliberately to eliminate other options). The amalgamated city of Ottawa just does not have enough long-term memory to remember this, and although extending the trench would never fly today, the NCC is just making the municipality stick to this corridor and modify it to be acceptable in the contemporary context by burying the line.

Dominion Station was an afterthought, it and an ill-fated New Orchard station were proposed in the 1990s to fill the long gap between Westboro and Lincoln Fields. Even in the city's latest presentations, they seem to side step and ignore its future. Curious how it's never part of the renders for the western extension. I really do hope it gets moved towards Richmond and Denbury, and that the linear park between it and Golden gets landscaped better to host events like the farmer's market and activities around the cenotaph. Great potential for a western anchor and focal point for Westboro Village here.

It's too bad the NCC botched up its PR once again, which is surprising as they are well aware of how sensitive this issue is. They should have come out with a more detailed rationale behind their decision. Maybe the City and the NCC should just hire a mutually agreed upon and impartial engineering consultant to lay out the issues and cost differences properly.

It isn't about anyone's view or any single stretch per se. It's about opening the door to development, which would set a precedent. Today it's this stretch, tomorrow it's another (for whatever purpose). All of this needs to be very carefully considered.

I'm no fan of the NCC, but the parkway is one thing that they actually do well. Some may not think it's stunning, but I do. Besides, what are we arguing about? This isn't even the best route for the western extension. If it were, I'd be on board with the "build it" crowd.

Western Corridor LRT EA - Bayview to Baseline
 

Creating a dedicated thread for the Western Extension and going to move posts here

Here is the City's website for background. The EA is actually from Bayview to Baseline because originally they were also looking at a Carling route through the O-Train corridor.

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-con...ht-rail-transit-environmental-assessment

here is the link of the alternative corridor evaluation
http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/public-con...ent-and-evaluation-alternative-corridors

I know Ken Gray is still pushing the Carling Avenue option, but that has so many serious flaws:

1) How to get it back to the main corridor? Would require a long bored tunnel somewhere between Holland and Churchill.

2) Much of the route along Carling would need to be elevated or underground, again increasing costs.

3) Some of the curves would be very sharp, and the geotechnical part at the north end of the line would be very disruptive.

I know he wants a route that runs the length of Carling or at least starts at the O-Train station, but using that corridor is not an option, due to two main failing factors: it skips Tunney's Pasture (a major ridership magnet) and its alignment going in and out of the O-Train trench would be very expensive and disruptive.

While I have heard that from numerous quarters, not least of which Alex Cullen, I can't actually find any documentation from the early RMOC Transitway planning and design era to back it up. I looked into this issue extensively many years ago and everything just seems to leave what to do about that stretch silent. It may well have been discussed behind the scenes, but if it made it into documentation I haven't been able to find it.

One problem with that routing is that to bring a trench across Rochester Field and under Richmond would almost certainly involve dipping into the water table. Rochester Field is at something of a low point between Westboro to the east and Cleary further west; I'm pretty sure there's a covered creek passing through it, part of which you can see in a "well" of sorts just west of Dominion Station. Roughly speaking Rochester Field is at about the same elevation as the bottom of the Transitway trench. All these discussions amount to tunnelling into a low point.

That's one of the reasons going via the old CPR corridor is so attractive: it comes out of the trench virtually level, goes along at grade past the Rochester Field "valley", then continues at grade along the base of the long hillside leading up to Dovercourt, reenters that hillside at Cleary and then emerges again near Lincoln Fields.

If we could get over our irrational hangups about grade crossings, going via Rochester Field would be a lot simpler and a lot less costly. Another option might be to extensively rework Richmond by raising it from Windermere to Broadview, but that might make for some awkwardness in dealing with Fraser, Mansfield and Westminster.

I honestly don't think they've given much thought at all to the location of existing stations.

^ I found this article (scroll to top right of page) that gives that feeling... they only had a rough estimate of the cost based on other Transitway construction, assumed the NCC would continue to let them use the parkway for the first phase, and the connection sounded more like a conceptual link

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aK8yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pe8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=4198%2C196476

Best compromise would be a fill 1,200 km shallow tunnel. This would eliminate any sort of "visual obstructions" and include a few added access points between Westboro and the River.

The NCC's ridiculous demand of a deep tunnel under the ORP or Rochester Field (and deal with the Richmond issue yourselves cause' it ain't our problem) is nothing but a jackassery. I'm sure anyone with half a head can agree that even a full 1.2 km trench along the ORP (which is not what the City is suggesting) would be less of a visual or physical obstruction than a at grade train on Richmond. And we can't forget the whole point of the O-Train expansion; a full fledged, fully grade separated rapid transit system that stretches as far as financially possible. It's not fair to jeopardize the chances of other communities getting LRT.

First of all, there is absolutely no possibility of a surface rail line on the old Britannia tramway right of way. What we are proposing is not anything like the old Britannia streetcar. The trains will be bigger, much more frequent and running faster. The line has to be grade separated with no level crossings. We just have to look at the issue of the level crossing in Barrhaven and there is something like 7 trains a day in each direction. It is a safety issue but it is also traffic issue. Just go over to the Edmonton board and read about the traffic chaos being caused by ETS trains at level crossings. They created a bad design to save money and it is going to be very difficult to fix it.

So we might as well look at all options based on the assumption that grade separation is needed. Is that we have done when we studied the issue? It seems to me that we going to be tunneling the entire distance beyond the Transitway trench to almost Lincoln Fields. What is this going to do to the cost?

I have been a supporter of the Carling route in the past. I also predicted that the Tunney's Pasture terminus in Phase 1 was going to prejudice the routing for Phase 2. I was right. My preference for the Carling route was about being more central to the west end of the city. However, it is also now clear that a Carling route would also have to be 100% grade separated, whether buried or elevated. The costs are increasing no matter which route is chosen and one has to wonder how this will ever be funded within the desired time schedule.

It will be very unfortunate if the cost of this project puts it beyond the city's ability to pay or the other levels of government political will to support it.

How about keeping the Rochester Field & Byron alignment because it's closer to the action on Richmond, and there's no landowner (NCC) requirement for a complete burial. It can be at grade with frequent stops (like downtown), or trenched with a "walkable roof" (metal grates or even a green roof) for pedestrians.