Palladium/Corel Centre/ Scotiabank Place/Canadian Tire Centre
 

I was very interested while reading about the Amway Arena in Orlando being replaced 21 years after opening due to inadequacies in it's design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway_Arena

It has now been 16 years since Scotiabank Place has opened. i wonder if it will also be a victim of poor planning and execution. I don't think we have had a serious discussion on here in a while about the ridiculous location and design of Scotiabank Place. If you people are interested, let's open up a debate!

Certainly an interesting discussion. But I doubt the taxpayers or Mr. Melynk have any interest in contributing to the cost of a new arena(especially with Landsdowne). Secondly, while the arena has some critical flaws, i.e., geographical placement, a insufficient parking ring road which is tasked to absorb nearly 100% of vehicles at SPB, lack of a 417 onramp directly connected to rear parking lots(they planned it originally but it was not up to MTO standards), limited hallway size & vendor and washroom areas, inadequate amount of stairs & elevators, insufficient smoking zones, lack of communal area, etc.

Most of the aforementioned problems are customer service related that dont directly effect the Senators management and bottom line; as long as citizens continue to show up in droves willing to pay the price of admission it won't matter much.

Orlando Arena's problems were more detrimental to their operating conditions:

Experts stated that the arena was outdated since the day its doors first opened. Although it was built to NBA specifications at the time, construction began right before mid level luxury seating and lower level club seating became the de facto standard (the arena lacks both of these features). The Orlando Magic's desire for a major renovation of the building dates all the way back to 1994 when it was only five years old, as the team was seeking to increase revenue by expanding the limited retail & concession space and luxury seating .In 1996, the team spent $100,000 to have Conventions Sports & Leisure of Minneapolis study and determine renovation ideas. Major renovation was beginning to seem unfeasible in 1997 when the task-force determined that the cost of implementing everything that the team wanted would reach up to $75 million.

And

The arena originally seated 15,291 but all the original seats were replaced with narrower ones between 1994 and 1995, increasing capacity by over 2,000 to 17,519.

I doubt it will be replaced for at least about 15-20 years personally, and when the time comes, I am guessing it will be replaced by another building in the same general site.

Agreed, unfortunately the formula has been proven and the citizenry has demonstrated its inclination for the status quo; hopefully that can change with time and the growing presence of sustainable living and the principles of urbanism in our societies. Extra consideration should be given to the fact that there is little chance that a suitable land parcel will still be available within the greenbelt in 15-20 years from now. (Insert NCC & Lebreton Flats joke here)

This is a timely discussion that should be seriously considered.

There is no doubt that Scotiabank Place has no more than 10 or 15 years left for its glory. Finestone wanted to build the Palladium at LeBreton Flats and building it 30 kms out of downtown was an urban design mistake.

It is timely because the City is contemplating a casino downtown. Since the east-west LRT is crossing the north-south O-train in the Bayview Yards/LeBreton Flats area and there is presently planning for a mixed used development also, as well as having about 8 major hotel chains next door and Little Italy and Chinatown within a stone's throw, why not start planning for a combined arena/casino operation to envigorate downtown?

Also, the O-Train could be extended south to the airport and north to Gatineau to link with the Rapibus/Lac Leamy Casino operation.

Let's plan ahead and not wait for another Lansdowne Park kerfuffle.

I will stand corrected if necessary but I don't seem to recall Bruce Firestone wanting to build it at LeBreton. He was Kanata all the way because his company, Terrace Investments, owned a lot of land he wanted to develop out there around the arena, and that would provide financial leverage for the team and building.

In an article he wrote about the construction of the venue in the last couple of years, he said that he did inquire with the NCC about building it at LeBreton and for all intents and purposes they said no. He didn't pursue it any further, choosing to try for a bigger development out in Kanata, which got reduced due to an objection to the OMB.

I think it got either posted or linked to here somewhere.

The late 80's NBA expansion came at what ended up being a bit of a transition time for arena construction. I think the Palace of Auburn Hills in Detroit was the first to have those revenue sources - if not, there weren't many around. The big boom of mid-level luxury suite construction didn't really take off for another few years. So the arenas being built for the expansion still subscribed to the older model with fewer suites, all in the high levels. The Target Center in Minneapolis is the only one of the 4 arenas linked to that expansion that still hosts an NBA team. And it was was built a year or 2 later, with the Wolves using the Metrodome in the interim.

Since the majority of NHL and NBA teams have buildings that are less than 20 years old I think the question of replacing arenas from the most recent construction boom would be related to what new amenity can be offered that teams feel they can't do without. At least rather than buildings showing age and needing to be replaced. I don't know what that new amenity would be at this point though - but that would be an interesting thing to discuss too.

Planning a casino/arena entertainment area in Le Breton would certainly be a good idea, but don't expect any foresight on the part of anyone... ever.

Besides, Melnyk is always looking to build around the Palladium, from soccer stadiums to casinos, so I highly doubt that he would ever want to move the team in the city.

That said, it should be in Le Breton

Ottawa is a car city, SBP needs to have a sea of parking around it and decent highway access, period.

For the newbies who haven't seen this article before:

http://www.obj.ca/Opinion/Bruce-Fireston...8677/Why-Scotiabank-Place-is-in-Kanata/1

I reference it quite frequently when people ask the usual question: "Why the hell did they build your arena so far outside of town?"

I wish things happened differently, but now we are pretty much stuck with the current location for at least 20 years. I would love to see LRT out to SBP within that time, but that's probably a pipe dream. It would actually be quite fun taking a nice smooth train ride on a grade-separated line to and from the games. Not to mention that a line to Kanata would serve well over 100000 commuters every day!

Don't need to be stuck there for 20 years
 

20 years is a very long time in the world of business and of professional sports. Eugene Melnyk was just starting out in the time-released drug business 20 years ago and his business developed 100 times in the following 10 years. He then bought the Senators and could very well sell the Sens for a profit....or he could dump Scotiabank Place and build a combination Hockey Arena + Casino + hotel in the downtown core..who knows!!!

What I would consider a more realistic development concept would be for a smooth grade-separated line from Kanata as well as from Orléans and also from Barrhaven (maybe also from Gatineau), all converging toward downtown Ottawa where tall condo buildings are presently sprouting up like mushrooms with no end in sight.

If that area develops into what is planned - a retail, business and entertainment area - then once the time comes to replace, it might be best just to replace with a new building in the existing parking lots.

I wonder just what would happen if someone actually did go ahead and build a casino+arena complex at Bayview/LeBreton even without a commitment to move the Senators?

Just how long does anyone think the Senators could realistically remain at SBP in Kanata?

For one thing, the new arena would likely vacuum up most major non-NHL events, other than maybe whatever event that was this summer that saw hundreds of camper trailers parked at SBP. Whatever loyalty people have to going to SBP for Sens games, the same cannot be said of most other events or the people who plan them.

Any international hockey games would almost certainly be played at LeBreton, especially if someone at the City comes to their senses and extends the O-Train to the airport. Again, if you're organizing an international hockey tournament in which you expect fans to fly in from abroad, you're probably going to prefer a location in downtown Ottawa that people can easily get to to one in Kanata.

Once people become habituated to going to LeBreton for most events other than NHL games, the pressure to move the Sens would inexorably mount as well.

With the current economy, who in their right mind would come up with the money to build a second NHL calibre arena in Ottawa? I cannot see a business plan that could possibly support this. The only situation where I could see this happening is when Scotia Bank Place is booked most days of the year.

How about large conventions?
 

Ottawa is a Capital city with a lot of tourist-oriented amenities in the downtown core and regional area. Now that the Ottawa Convention Centre has made its mark as "Canada's Meeting Place", what's to prevent Ottawa from building up on this momentum with an arena/casino structure to accomodate large crowds for high level conventions and high-class entertainment?

The Ottawa area is presently said to be the fastest growing area in Canada. It's population is 1.2 million with 300,000 in Gatineau and 100,000 in Orléans. The central cores of Ottawa and Gatineau are getting denser with many tall condo buildings being built in both cities.

The LeBreton-Bayview district is within walking distance from the entire central urban area which includes government, hotel, business and condo buildings, including the Convention Centre, the Westin Hotel and the Rideau Centre on the east side of the Rideau Canal and its locks.

The NCC has been promoting Confederation Boulevard, the Museum of Civilisation and the Art Gallery for decades and the Chaudiere Falls beside the War Museum are just begging to be developed into a world-class tourist site second only to the Niagara Falls.

To top all of this, the LeBreton-Bayview district is at the intersection of the O-Train and the Transitway, planned to be converted to LRT. The federal government is contributing a third of the cost of the LRT. To get value-for-money on its investment, it should want guaranteed high use of the planned underground transit line. That means usage of the tunnel 24/7, not just to go to work in the morning and back home at night.

We could go on and on....how much material do you need for a business plan?

As for the "current economy" argument, that's very debatable fiscal matter!

Common sense and political savvy say that the time to spend and invest is when the economy is slipping down. Harper knew that two years ago when everybody and his brother were buying and hiring to fix up and renovate their homes to get tax credits. That's why OSEG is going ahead with Lansdowne Park with few retail and office tenants in sight. Bill Shenkman's grandfather, Wolfe, was investing in building apartment buildings in Centretown during the Great Depression.

Ottawa needs to bring life back to an area that was the cradle of its very existence. No lumber industry, no Capital City. An arena combined with a casino with rapid transit at LeBreton/Bayview should flourish and NHL hockey would then follow and come back to its home turf.

Talk of replacing SBP is ridiculous. There is no business case for replacing it until some new money making in arena innovation comes along making all the current arenas obsolete. When that happens is something no one can predict.

But who the hell is going to be stupid enough to spend all the money on building an NHL sized arena, and the land it sits on, without a tenant? And it's not like the city is going to help out whoever attempts to build this. It's not like Ottawa is a city like Markham that needs to put itself on the map.

If and when SBP needs replacing, it will probably be done on the current parking lot since it is owned by the franchise. To buy the land in a better location to build a new arena would cost far too much to make it viable.

1.2 Million is the Ottawa CMA.
Gatineau and Orleans are included in that number. In fact, Orleans is also included in the 883,391 people that make up the City of Ottawa. Trying to inflate numbers to make us appear bigger is not a good strategy.

depends what metric you are looking at...the NCR has almost 1.5 million and we are talking about Eastern Ontario's hockey arena here effectively...so really we are talking about an arena that serves around 1.7 million people.

I don't think that's what he was doing. "It's population is 1.2 million with 300,000 in Gatineau and 100,000 in Orléans" to me is simply stating the total population of the region and pointing out that 300,000 of that 1.2 million is in Gatineau and another 100,000 is in Orléans.

Past discussions on SBP have often made mention of the fact that it is downright inconvenient for people in Gatineau and Orleans to get to, so I think he was just pointing out that about a third of the metropolitan population has a very inconvenient journey to get to SBP, whereas a downtown location would be far more convenient overall to the entire metropolitan population.

I see no sign that backwater Ottawa shows any more appreciation of urbanism now, than it did in 1973.

I've gotta say that SBP doesn't seem old to me at all. It's not a particularly attractive building, but it never was. The amenities on the inside are all nice. The washrooms pretty much look they way they did when they were new. The concession keep getting updated. If they haven't already I'm sure they're working on replacing seating regularly. The scoreboard is new.

Literally the only thing they could do to improve it significantly would be to move it to a central location, but that isn't likely to happen, and it would also strain the parking situation. Does anyone want a see of parking (mostly unused) in a central location? Didn't we just get rid of that at Lansdowne?

Here's an idea. Just drive it down the Queensway to Hurdman!

We could build parking garages or put it underground. And even with surface parking lots, they would probably be used every day by office workers/visitors/tourists (I'm thinking it would be built at Bayview).

The problem with Lansdowne was that it is in an area that sees (currently and in the past, until the redevelopment when parking will be scarce) little action outside of events.

If the Arena and related parking is in a business and touristic district, it will be used much more often.

I've always thought of Hurdman as a great location for the NHL arena. It's a big transit hub AND its close to downtown AND it's right off the Queensway (albeit in a pretty congested section). We could give the entire land over to the Sens, the arena would take up only some of it and the rest could be leased for profit (and at Hurdman it would make quite the pretty penny!) In the perfect world in which we moved the VIA stop back to Union Station the current train station lands could be added to that site as well, providing even more land to lease and make money from.

It would be great if someone could make a business case for all this. I'd imagine such a location, with all the leasing revenue would be significantly more profitable than the current SBP site. If the difference is large enough to repay the capital cost of relocating SBP within 20-25 years it could be quite viable.

I can pipe-dream, can't I? :P

Hurdman would be a great spot. I thought of it myself. The only way I could see it happen is if we won a bid for an international event requiring a new NHL sized arena downtown.

We couldn't give the land to Melnyk though, or even have him decided on the development around it. I'm getting sick and tired of procedure like Lansdowne and the Casino.

BTW, can anyone change the name of the thread. I'm thinking Palladium replacement so that we don't have to change again every few years.

I created the thread but I can't figure out a way to change the name.

I agree Hurdman would be an awesome location for an arena...I can just imagine a redevelopment of the waterfront there with bars and restaurants, which is something Ottawa is sorely sorely lacking. A river city without access to the rivers.

Totally.

BTW, I believe only moderators have the power to change the name of a thread.

I'm sure if you suggested doing such a waterfront development, you would get a lot of complaints from people who feel that access to the river should be unencumbered. That way everyone can go down to the river, not the privileged few who can own property there.

A lot of the greenspace along Riverside Dr. is protected for floodplane, and given Calgary, we should probably be thankful for the NCC's foresight there.

This is not a thing for another 20 years. Being it's Ottawa, make that 30 years.

JeffB wrote

I was looking at an artists representation of the TOD plan for the Lees AV LRT station.
It shows some big buildings on the uOttawa Lees campus, including where the football field now is.
And it shows quite a bit of development across the river where Hurdman is. So perhaps there is hope that an arena for the Sens could be built there some day.

The NCC considers Hurdman to be "development lands" in their land use plan, but they're in no hurry.

What does the future hold for the Canadian Tire Centre?

Dylan Dyson, CTV News Ottawa
Sept. 21, 2024

A potential move to LeBreton Flats for the Ottawa Senators is still years away, but questions and concerns are already being raised about what to do with the Canadian Tire Centre.

Being a massive building with wide open parking lots surrounding, Kanata South councillor Allan Hubley has grand ideas for the space.

"There was talk about turning this area into an entertainment district. There was some discussion that it could become a theme park,” Hubley told CTV News on Saturday.

“Ottawa is over a million people, we could use a theme park in this area, it would be well supported. Picture a waterslide coming off the fourth level."

"I'd like to see it maybe get turned into a casino or a concert venue,” said Sens fan Robbie Williams. “Or you can even do festivals and stuff like that in the parking lot.”

Currently, the Ottawa Senators say they do not have a plan for the CTC if or when they leave the area.

“We know that this is an important site for the city. We have had those conversations, and it's been clear to us by councilors in this area and the mayor that if and when we vacate this site, we're going to need to do something special with these lands,” said team CEO Cyril Leeder at Friday’s press conference.

“So that'll be part of the process for the work that will go on now, that we'll be able to get into what we will do with this site as we move forward.”

At this time, Hubley believes there is no desire to tear down the CTC if the Senators were to move out.

But the area councillor says "the last thing we want to do is level this and build more housing. We've got lots of housing going on."

Community concerns

But with the eventual move of Ottawa’s NHL team out of Kanata, local businesses fear they will take a hit from lost revenue.

"The last Toronto game we had (in Ottawa), it was about 10 to $12,000 just in jersey sales for the Leafs,” says Matt DiMillo, manager at Pro Hockey Life in the Kanata Centrum shopping centre.

“On a Saturday night at 6 p.m. or 7p.m., you can see all those people leaving those restaurants, making their way (to the game). And on your Saturday afternoon games, for sure, we'll lose a little bit of the atmosphere because in here we get piles of people coming in.”

During home games, Kanata restaurants are often packed with attending fans getting meals in before puck drop.

"I know we will definitely miss some of those rushes,” said Jamieson Bridal, manager at The Cheshire Cat Pub on Richardson Side Road.

“We are definitely going to be rooting for those years before the move."

While there are many seasons of pre-game rushes to come before a potential move, the restaurant sees the team’s departure as a backwards step for Ottawa’s west end.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/here-s-what-the-future-holds-for-the-canadian-tire-centre-1.7047496

Good lord.

I'd say he probably just means he doesn't want the entire site to be housing, but Hubley is probably out of touch enough to think we don't need housing at all.

Sure I want to see something more than just housing. Love to see the building reused somehow for an attraction we don't already have, but there's nothing wrong with a few thousands units on site on top of that.

It'll meet the same fate of Detroit's Palace of Auburn Hills...

Or perhaps Dynamo will take it over...

Not much use once a sizeable venue is downtown - hardly any concerts will go there.

Hubley is a sneaky big NIMBY. It just doesn't come to peoples' attention very often because there aren't that many proposals in his ward. Speaking of which, don't know why they even interviewed this buffoon considering the CTC isn't in his ward, it's in Gower's ward.

But recall how much of a stink Hubley and locals raised over that modest infill dev at Maple Grove / McCurdy. Outer-Greenbelt NIMBYs are just as bad, if not worse, than urban ones, they just don't get a chance to rear their ugly heads as often.

While I feel bad for businesses who've catered to CTC-driven patronage for the past 28 years, you can't open up a business in the burbs and expect to be propped up by major events traffic to be sustainable indefinitely. Oh no, Pro Hockey Life won't be able to sell leafs jerseys when the leafs come to town! Give me a break, if you want tourists and other non-locals to visit your business, you need to be more centrally located. The burbs are meant for chain restaurants and Costcos.

If nothing else shows up, they could have monster truck shows every sunday, Sunday, SUNDAY!

Maybe they could just keep it as is and finally have extra parking for the nearby Costco that everyone keeps complaining about.

Ottawa has so few indoor attractions it would be nice to have an indoor attraction that could take advantage of the existing infrastructure, although I guess much would depend on what condition the building is in 5-10 years.

I don't understand the disdain on this board for people who choose to live outside the old City of Ottawa boundaries. I am not trying to pick on one particular person, but I keep reading "you suburbanites" this and "those suburbanites" that or statements like the one above in countless messages. Gawd, if you're that pissed about where you live (or even worse pissed about where other poeple live), then move and stop complaining. Let's keep the discussion on point and keep political views and life philosophies out of it.

Broadly agree that a central location is most desirable for a lot of this stuff, but I'll point out that we had visitors from the Maritimes over this summer. And of the five days they spent in the capital region, a good half day was devoted to shopping at Tanger Outlets in Kanata. (Which is about 45 minutes from my house in Gatineau.)

I mean life philospohies and politics is intertwined with the fate of this project. SFH houses is probably the easiest and most profitable future for these 50 acres next to the highway. I am sure the City will make some claim it should be more dense or transit oriented. Like the request for no parking and a net zero arene there will be pushback. The debate will be more public and absolutely political.

More generally personally IMHO if you want to be annoyed with people voting for bike lanes that clog up your commute as a resident of Stittsville or whatever that is valid. I mean disdain is never a good look but if you think people are destroying the city and planet etc. shouldn't you be disdainful? A lot of people want to live in an urban walkable city but can't move to Toronto or Montreal because of family or work. They get to vote and agitate for their version of the city as long as they respect the right of the other side to do so too.

Why would it be more profitable to build SFH? Density means more money, as long as you can sell it.
Even the lowest density planned for areas like South March is still much higher than a ton of neighborhoods inside the Greenbelt. When prices are through the roof, condos and narrow townhouses sell well.

Townhouses might sell well, but they might not be as profitable as a SFH. People are willing to pay a significant premium for the latter beyond the size difference. Also, townhouses have to go on private roads which adds to cost and necessitates a HOA.

I think an indoor pool/waterpark/resort would work best. Would be really nice to have an attraction that works 12mo/year and it could really be a draw for the entire region. Something like Great Wolf Lodge...

I mean it is a car oriented location so let's let the market decide which I suspect is mostly SFH. Maybe Townhomes along the highway or even something a bit higher with mixed use.

Do townhouses have to be on a private road? Doesn't the DC cover connection to city streets?

Agreed, attractions like outlet malls are certainly draws for tourists and cannot be centrally located due to land needs. Same goes for water parks like Calypso. My comment was more directed towards businesses who claim to be reliant on CTC-driven patronage despite being located in the burbs. I can understand carving out a niche in the 28 years the CTC has been there, but when planning for the long term you need to realize it's a house of cards. If you're a restaurant that relies on tourists then maybe Kanata is not the best place to be.