Southwest Calgary Future LRT
 

Hello everyone,

What are some comments about fantasy LRT plan for something like this, I know some on here have mentioned a few of these ideas before:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/77206661@N07/6921539483/

As seen here, total line length from Westbrook to 50th transfer around 8.5km, with around 4km below grade. Potential few more km to connect to SE LRT in future. Obviously not a short/medium term project (momentum for SE LRT, downtown subway etc.) but perhaps on a 2030-2050 timeline?



Rationale:
- Southwest is already going through the first round of infilling and growing density, more than likely to continue, making this project even more attractive in the future as the population grows
- Grid street network supports higher density activity
- Continuing traffic congestion on Glenmore, increasing east-west traffic
- Links to other major infrastructure: MRU, South line LRT, West LRT potential SE line, even a potential Westbrook to University Gondola
- Timeline of 30 to 50 years out, meaning increasing congestion downtown routes, provides bypass for routes
- Stations are roughly 750 to 1000m apart, right in the appropriate distance range for LRT stations
- Price range today of similar to West LRT (plus more for subway portion), perhaps 1.5 to 2.0 billion?

Discuss! I have always thought of this idea as I am parked on the Glenmore Causeway during a snowstorm :)

I like your idea, but there would likely be issues with interfacing (ie interlining, or crossing) the existing WLRT as it would likely be at or near capacity by the time this comes the top of the list, and building under what will likely be a fairly dense area will create a significant cost for the project

That definitely true, it would be much more costly by the time this comes up. Perhaps an associated station can be built underneath Westbrook and not link tracks, just transfer passengers. it could face a similar problem with the connection to the SE lrt, depending on what technology was used. I can see something like this being increasingly necessary with the huge east-west traffic flow.

I would prefer this line to link to Chinook station, as it already serves as a bit of a hub, I can only imagine the Chinook area to busier and denser. However, the nightmare of connecting an east-west line to chinook through the mall and lake just seemed too daunting.

Good luck trying to get people living in Willow Park, Britannia Altadore, Glenmore Park and Elboya to have a CTrain run through their precious parks and backyards.
They were quite successful in killing the proposed freeways in the 60's and 70's (which is why Glenmore Tr has its current alignment crossing Glenmore reservoir, and why 14th St ends at Glenmore Tr), so they'll be in full battle-cry again if CTrain is proposed for the same 50th Ave alignment.

It may be easier just to have let the CTrain continue south of Mt. Royal skirting Lakeview on 37th St and down to Oakridge, Cedarbrae and Woodbine.

We would certainly be entertained by the spectacle of Money (ie: Lakeview) battling Old Money (ie: Britannia) over preservation of their respective neighbourhoods.

Well, as this is not tabled or proposed in any form by the city administration or , I can only expect a 30 year delay before even the preliminary actions are taken on this route. Assuming people opposing the freeways of the 70s were in their 20s, they would be pushing 50 or 60 now and over 80 by the time this could possible become a reality. Due to the influx of infills and young people in all the areas around this route, the old money would be losing some of its staying power.

Interestingly, the President of the Lakeview community association talked about this exact thing last year. Said it was something that could be considered.

I think serving south of the reservoir would make more sense than curving it back towards MacLeod. The people that close to the core could be equally served with better bus systems, I think.

Forget freeways of the 1970s. People in their 20s are fighting freeways of the 2010s. Besides, it's not about age, it's about home ownership. That isn't likely to change with new generations.

Thanks for that! I can really see the Mount Royal University becoming quite the hub. Why it was never connected is beyond me! You know that after University is finished in May, morning traffic on Crowchild actually settles down quite a bit (believe it or not).

And I can only imagine it continuing to grow as a hub, with that new office park being built there, along with future university related developments. It is amazing how much traffic is generated by schools and universities. The first week back to school/uni for the city in September feels like a snow-day with everything backing up on glenmore and crowchild until people get used to the increased traffic.

I think the major selling point for an idea like this would be the additional link across the Elbow River, and as far I can see it this would probably be the only simple way to provide that access (nimbyism aside of course) with the least expropriation as possible.

Good work MasterG! A connection over the Bow at 50th Ave and service to MRU are vital. At 15k students and growing I think a station at MRU would take a lot of cars off the road, and this provides good connections to other lines.

I agree connection to a hub like chinook might be better as that area is already the destination of a lot of commuters/shoppers, but how can you argue with the utilities right of way along 50th ave! There are already new multi-story developments going in by Elbow Drive at 50th Ave. Maybe 50th Ave and Macleod Can become some kind of TOD hub.

I think you labeled 26th Ave as 33rd Ave.

From Westbrook this line could be extended north to Foothills and meet up with the NW line somewhere.

In addition, if the SW ring road goes through Tsuu T'ina land, there are plans for 150+ acre business park developments just west of 37th street, from the Casino to the reservoir. With no stated plans for mass transit in that area (besides the SW BRT), an LRT like you propose would help the increased congestion in that area.

You are correct, that should be 26th Ave, Thanks!

It would be interesting to see what ends up happening from a Westbrook - Foothills / U of C connection. I like the idea of the Gondola connection, certainly would be cheaper and easier to build than a train with the steep grade of the valley. However, a train would be ultimately faster and better integrated to the system.

I agree. I never thought of what a gondola would be like...
Portland's gondola cost $57 million USD(2007) to build, 2 stations, 1 km distance (and 150m up), 3 minute trip.

Westbrook to Foothills is about 3 km as the crow (or gondola) flies
You could:
-Westbrook-3km-Foothills-1.5km-Banff Trail,
-Westbrook-3km-Foothills-2km-Lion's Park,
-Westbrook-3km-Foothills-2km-University station,
-Westbrook-3km-Foothills-1.5km-Somewhere at UofC-1km-Brentwood,
-Westbrook-3km-Foothills-1.5km-ACH-1km-MarketMall-1km-Northland (where you could build a cxn to ctrain)
...or some other combination of these. Thoughts?

Personally, I like the idea of a real ctrain to Foothills, but I also like the idea of UofC linking up its campuses better (I'll even settle for a better, direct, pedestrian route!) and a gondola may achieve this. What a cool gimmick to attract engineering students!

Foothills (incl. FMC, Tom Baker Cancer Centre, UofC Healthsciences Ctr & Vet School, Stadium strip mall, Foothills Professional bldg, Brentwood internal care ctr, etc) employs thousands and continues to develop. Parking is $13, and routes 20, 91, and 40 buses are busy all day. A large portion of visitors are students and seniors, demographics known to use transit. A direct link from UofC and Foothills to MRU via ctrain would be awesome. 2-way, all day traffic.

By the way, here's a couple links:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/02/15/calgary-gondolas-proposed.html

http://gondolaproject.com/2010/05/18/calgarys-plus-15-network-the-key-to-urban-gondolas/

ffwd to about 15:30:
http://www.cbc.ca/eyeopener/episode/2012/02/15/eyeopener-podcast-for-february-15th/

It would be possible to reach Chinook by using elevated track through the parkland that remains north of Glenmore Trail from the GE5 project, the extreme southern portion of the Chinook Mall parcel (a station attached directly to the mall could probably convince them to play ball) and what google maps calls 65e Ave S with an elevated station over the south part of the Chinook station lands. That would allow the line to serve Rockyview Hospital, after veering slightly south west around 14 St, with a transfer station (also served by the 14 St Rapid Transit Line) somewhere just north of the main hospital building. The line would then cross the reservoir and head west along the north edge of the Earl Grey Golf Course, turn north at Crowchild Trail and have a station where the retail area is. It would then continue along Crowchild until Glenmore where it would veer west, transition to tunnel and turn north following Richard Rd until it joined the ROW that you outlined to reach Westbrook Station on the W LRT.

That much elevated track would be expensive but it would be a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the section buried under 37 St. The entire project would probably cost somewhere north of a billion 2012 dollars with two thirds of that cost going towards the ~3 km and four station underground section and one third of that cost going towards the ~6 km (and 4-6 station) elevated section.

I would also continue the line north from Westbrook across the Bow river. It would then be able to service major activity nodes like Foothills Hospital (with a transfer station to the 16 Ave Rapid Transit Line), the UofC (with a station near the Olympic Oval), and the Brentwood TOD with a transfer to the NW LRT. The line could also eventually be expanded east from Chinook to reach the SE LRT and north east from Brentwood to reach the Centre Street Subway (possibly elevated over McKnight Boulevard). It could eventually even from a complete loop linking all of the radial LRT lines and some of the crosstown Rapid Transit Lines (be they Bus or Rail).

I could definitely see such a line being very useful in the 25-50 year horizon. Between Chinook and Brentwood stations it would link together three major TODs, two major hospitals, two universities, and the city's largest retail destination. Just between the schools we are already talking about nearly 50 000 relatively transit dependent people; those numbers will only go up as the CMAs population doubles over the next 30 years.

Ignoring for a moment that that the SW cross town line and the SW BRT/LRT Lines are two different lines so technically this entire conversation is off topic I'll stay with the train of thought.

I don't see this working the main hospital complex is just too far south and you have the holy cross ambulatory center in the way of a pedestrian link unless there is to be a rediculous deviation to service the hosital and if your going to do that you might as well just send that down 14th instead of going onto MRU and Westbrook.

I think that the cross town alignment using Heritage is far wiser in terms of overall benefits, yes Chinook center gets missed but you also pass through a more transit friendly corridor along Heritage rather than Glenmore for future extensions. After Chinook you have to deviate back down to Glenmore which is a pain in of itself and you wont have any obvious station locations until you get to the other side of the the river. Following Heritage you can have a Staions at Fairmont, Blackfoot (services all the development planned for the bluffs), Deerfoot meadows, then depending on the what you want the ultimate network to look like it can cross the river and either run down glenmore and connect with the SE corridor at either South Hill (far easier, and opens possiblity for further extension) or Quarry Park (employment node, but much harder to access & would be end point of the cross town)

Heritage in my opinion is prime corridor, it has just enough width if memory serves me correctly that an elevated line could run down it no problem and transit fueled density in the short term it will have the 303 and the 20 providing excellent frequency (though I guess technically you could end up with less frequncy when the 303 start up because it is duplicating the 20 upto MRU so depending on the headways frequency could hypothetically be reduced as equally so it could be increased should ridership stay constant.) Should frequency and other ridership baiting amenities come about because of investment for the 303 then it could lead to further densification along that corridor, should you then proceed to shift the rapid transit corridor up to Glenmore then you would be punishing all the built up density that had been built up. Thats the part of the logic as I see it for the majority of Riverbend being skipped in the 302 routing as they wouldn't put rail down 18th because cost just doesn't warrent it unless you were to tear the entire community down and rebuild it as all midrise apartments, so as to actually enourage development along the future rail corridor putting the BRT along 24th will help that (the deviation onto Quarry Park Blvd is temperary and once there are actually buildings built near the final station location will the 302 go to its permanent alignment, if my memory of the planning documents are correct)

I'd be interest to see a cost/benefit analysis comparing these route options.
-50th Ave
-58th Ave
-Glenmore
-Heritage

It depends on catchment and cost, but also should consider the importance of linking destinations (not just transfer points) as well as eventual extension eastward.

I agree with Bassic Lab that given the price of the project it would be a shame to miss Rocky View. Connecting 2 Universities and 2 Hospitals would be huge, as not only are all 4 destinations major employment centres, but a large number of students, patients, and health care professionals make daily trips between any 2 of these 4. I wish I lived in the distant future...

I think we could do a basic analysis ourselves of those four basic routings (or a slight mixture).

50 Avenue S

Cons:

-The 50 Ave ROW between Crowchild and the 14 St ROW would essentially need to be underground. At grade would not work without massive expropriation and there would be significant opposition to elevation.

-The route would bypass Rockyview Hospital. This would also be a natural transfer point to the 14 St Rapid Transit Line that would be missed.

-If the utility corridor is utilized as an at grade or elevated ROW it would negatively affect plans for urban redevelopment in the area between Elbow Drive and Macleod Trail.

-It would bypass Chinook Mall and the future adjacent TOD.

-There is no existing station for transfers with the SLRT.

-General NIMBY opposition, much of it justified.

Pros:

-No need for bridge over Glenmore Reservoir.

-Using the utility corridor could reduce costs especially if done at grade or elevated, even if buried underneath it could still be done in conjunction with development on top to reduce costs.

-50 Ave would make sense for an infill station along the SLRT, particularly if utility corridor is not used at grade and a major urban node develops in the area.

-Relatively direct route to transfer with SE LRT at Lynview Station if line is to be extended east.

58 Avenue S

Cons:

-Similar issues west of the Elbow River to 50 Ave. In fact the route would likely have to take either 50 Ave or Glenmore Trail until the river to get around North Glenmore. The former would be expensive; the latter would involve a somewhat convoluted routing around the north edge of the reservoir to get to 58 Ave.

-Again, it would bypass Rockyview Hospital.

-Again there would be issues between Elbow Drive and Macleod with ROW and resistance to elevation from residents.

-It would be extremely difficult and convoluted to reach Chinook Station for a transfer and 58 Ave would be too close for another station and yet a long walk, so massive issues with transfers to the SLRT.

Pros:

-No reservoir crossing.

-Route would pass Chinook Mall and the northern edge of the TOD.

-Most Direct Route to SE LRT transfer at Lynview Station if line is to be extended east.

Glenmore Trail

Cons:

-NIMBY opposition to using the parkland that remains from the GE5 project between 14 St and Macleod.

-ROW east of 5 St could be convoluted and there could be property issues.

-Issues with transfers to Chinook Station and the SLRT if line is to continue along Glenmore ROW east of Macleod. There would also be issues with ROW along Glenmore in that instance.

Pros:

-Relatively simple detours to serve Lakeview, Rockyview Hospital, and Chinook Station/TOD.

-Could be entirely elevated, reducing costs from tunnels.

-Lowest likelihood of causing major NIMBY opposition. What opposition that might exist would be the least justified.

-Choice of transfer at Lynview or Ogden stations if line is to be extended east. Ogden will likely have a larger TOD and more potential for redevelopment.

Heritage Drive (assuming Glenmore type ROW until 14 ST)

Cons:

-ROW issues along Heritage Drive, particularly west of Macleod.

-Bypasses Chinook Mall and TOD

Pros:

-Best able to service Rockyview Hospital.

-Could utilize 14 St Rapid Transit ROW between Glenmore and Heritage, with rail embedded in pavement to allow bus/train operation unless both would be one or the other.

-Service to Heritage Park.

-Service to Deerfoot Meadows, if that is a good thing.

-Likely transfer to SE LRT, if line is extended east, at Ogden instead of Lynview.



Beyond that 50 Ave, 58 Ave, and Heritage Drive would actually make a great deal of sense for BRT instead of LRT. Costs could be massively reduced by allowing in street running in certain choke points where rail would need to be buried or, at a minimum, elevated. I think rail would be better in the long term (50 years out or so), especially if the three TODs will include significant office developments, but gradually improved BRT could probably suffice for a long time. While the route probably has close to the same amount of jobs/school spots as downtown the massive number of students, along with hospital/retail as the major employment sectors, means there really isn't the same kind of peak hour demand.

Personally my favoured alignment would involve deviations from Glenmore. Basically from MRU it would take Richard Road to Glenmore, transition to elevated track, take Glenmore to Crowchild, follow Crowchild south to a station in front of the retail centre. It would then continue south until the north edge of the Earl Grey Golf Course where it would turn east and then cross the reservoir for a station on the north portion of the hospital grounds. It would then veer northwest, cross Glenmore and 14 St and then continue east along the edge of Glenmore. There would likely be a station at Elbow or Chinook Mall (or both if Elbow should have a station for transfers to the #3 and Chinook requests one in exchange for the ROW). At Macleod it would veer northeast and then follow 65 Ave east until 1A St where it would veer northeast again (the properties would need to be expropriated) for a station over the current Chinook station. Those ~6 km would probably cost somewhere around 450 million 2012 dollars.

An eastward extension would take 62 Ave east, then Blackfoot north to a station at Blackfoot@58 Ave. It would then follow 58 Ave east, cross Deerfoot and the Bow River and end at Lynview Station. The junkyard along the west side of Deerfoot might be a good place for a storage/maintenance facility. If such a facility is required for the whole line it might make sense to include this extension with the initial segment (I would include a single track link between the WLRT and this line, and other lines it crosses, for the purposes of moving LRVs between lines as demand warrants so it might not be initially necessary).

For purposes of costing I am assuming 300 million/km for subway, 75 million/km for elevated, and 25+ (going a fair bit higher depending on the level of expropriation required) million/km for at grade track and station. LRV purchases and storage/maintenance facilities would be extra.

While missing Rockyview would be a drawback, I can't see a better way accross the Glenmore/elbow gap than the utility ROW of 50th. My main thinking when I drew up the 50th ave alignment was the need for another west-east connection, separate from the Glenmore causeway. Nimbys aside (which their would be serious challenges) I dont see it requiring (relatively ) much expropriation as well as causing little re-routing or detours on major throughfares during the lengthy construction period. Adding a transfer on 50th could offer a chance to redevelop that portion of the light industrial strip by chinook.

The routing through the inner SW by MRU and 37th will support the redevelopment of those neighbourhoods as well. I feel the SW north of Glenmore is really the quadrant farthest along in the densification and redevelopment process that everyone is hoping for. Might as well support it with a LRT line :)

I never though of routing a line into Lakveview, across Earl Grey and over the reservoir to the Hospital. The golf course is on leased land, so aquisition would be more straightforward than expropriation, and the crossing there is about as small as it gets when considering the reservoir. You would get a lot of pushback from the North Glenmore Park residents that back onto the golf course if an LRT line was there instead, but I like the general route.

Maybe I'm getting carried away, but... something like this once it's connected to the rest of the system:
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u467/RyLucky/SOUTHRING-1.jpg

Potential BRT or trams or streetcars:
-17th Ave SE
-14th St SW
-Richmond Road/33rd Ave SW

See my network plan here:

http://www.civiccamp.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Transitcamp-Route-Map-1.jpg

I have the BRT going from Westbrook, down 37th to MRU, then using 50th and then Glenmore to 14th (for Rockyview) and then Heritage all the way to Glenmore again.

IMO, missing Rockyview Hospital is a huge oversight. It is half of the point of the route (the other being MRU). There is almost no point for the route other than to hit those two destinations (at least west of Macleod).

Yeah, Rockyview is a must but I also think it is very important to try to cross the river and hit Foothills and the UofC. They are basically super sized versions of Rockyview and MRU.

It will also likely be very important in 50 years (with a CMA that could be pushing 3 million) to have effective ways of moving people around the city to these secondary nodes without directing them through a downtown hub that could be very overburdened.

I completely agree with regards to hitting Foothills and UofC. I also believe Chinook has for better or worse become one of the centre points of our city and a missing it you'd force a lot of people to backtrack for their transfer. In my opinion, a separated east-west ROW at Chinook would really spur urbanization of this TOD while allowing quick passage through this congested part of the city.

On the other hand, I like Heritage for a shared-with-traffic BRT because it avoids road congestion near Chinook, brings the station closer to Rockyview, and serves Heritage Park.

How about extending that little streetcar at HP to Rockyview, Heritage Station, Farmer's Market, and Deerfoot meadows?:P

Sorry about the huge image post. :shrug: