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  #5801  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 7:30 PM
turpentyne turpentyne is offline
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What will support occupancy, is the same premise as a shopping mall. There need to be anchors. A department store and a grocery store. These two things will provide the "life essentials" that convince people to move downtown. Problem is, no company will go, for fear of not having enough clientele.

Everything must be synchronized. This is why a large, taller than 6-stories, mixed-use building is so desperately needed. It gives a shot the the local infrastructure, whether its downtown or midtown.

Otherwise, we will always have either too many empty condos, or too many empty storefronts, as each non-mixed project adds a piece.

---------------------

A consideration for the warehouse district: With some creativity and ingenuity, why can't we keep these buildings, but use the space wisely by adding support structures and building higher? It will take some architectural savvy to not detract from the visuals of the buildings or the structural integrity. But I have seen some amazing results in other cities. See Toronto or New York for various ways of doing this. The closest I can recall that we've come to it in Phoenix, is the incorporating of the Orpheum Theater into its surrounding buildings, a few years back.
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  #5802  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 8:10 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
/\ He didn't say "not".

JS, it turns out that the warehouse we were bitching about down on 5th St and Jackson that has the demolition permit isn't actually going to be demolished imminently. I found the owners talking about it on some Facebook page and pulling the demolition permit is just part of "the process" so he says. He does want to figure something out for the space and doesn't necessarily want to knock it down. Maybe would something like that space work for the people you are talking about?
Thanks for both clarifications. Any chance you can post or send the Facebook link? Since they aren't looking to make a business out of any showroom area, a more remote location like Jackson/5th would work fine, and if the owner is able and willing - both financially and politically (HP laws) - to add storefront windows , that would create a nice synergy with IceHouse across the street.

I hate what the County has done to Union Station and the Chambers Warehouse; this part of the warehouse district actually has more potentially than Roosevelt Row ever had, IMO. Chambers alone has 6-7 perfect storefronts with 2-3 stories above for lofts, while Union Station would be the perfect hub for Arts events, with 1 acre of land that could stage tents and so on, with more permanent restaurants and galleries inside. There's also a set of perfect storefronts along S Central if you walk to the west of the underpass. They're in god-awful shape, but there's a warehouse with the typical parapet roof detail with space for a lawn in front, and then 4 small, amazing retail stores that would be turned into comic book stores, vintage boutiques, music shop, or small tapas restaurant in any other city. Instead, they'll rot until deemed "unsalvageable" by whichever developer stumbles into the land and they'll become rubble.

EXIT: I guess I don't understand your rationale behind not supporting retail now given the current vacancies; don't you think that's a shortsighted stance that could have negative impact on the city in the future? I just want to better understand why you think an inactive wall of apartment windows is better than a wall of empty retail that has the potential to one day be filled?

I truly stand behind the fact that the majority of the problem we have with retail has to do with the sporadic development patterns that occurred in Tempe and Phoenix last boom cycle. Mixed use development was a hot trend, and so developers built every residential project with retail on the ground level regardless of its surroundings. Many projects, particularly many of the student housing projects that weren't adjacent/near LRT stations, shouldn't have filled their entire ground levels. Someday, Tempe will have the density to support some retail in places like University/McClintock, but not now. Having so many of those developments built in a haphazard fashion diluted the inventory of retail.

When you look at a Tapestry, how could you possibly expect retail to survive, especially given the tenant complications? However, build a Grigio Metro across the street and a Vue on each side, and you started building the residential density and it becomes a matter of time then before a domino effect occurs because the draw of visitors to one store brings access and visibility to all of the stores. That's what is so important about creating these midrise apartments that bring residents close to the ground level and prompt them to walk and utilize whatever retail is available now, and why I think it's important that each project at least includes 1 retail use that's publically accessed (IOW, not a fitness center for residents); just 1 restaurant within a project is enough to break up a pedestrian's walk and helps give the impression of a walkable, shoppable corridor.

The other problem is, of course, the pricing, but with an increase in immediate supply, perhaps pricing can drop to a point where it's worth it for a local business to move in? Skyline/Alta had the only new retail adjact to the campuses, etc. but maybe with the new development, Roosevelt Pointe, etc., those prices can all even out? I don't know.

All I know is that Phoenix will never have a Mill Ave or Michigan Ave. So, creating these small districts of retail is extremely important if there is ever going to be street life beyond 5pm. A pharmacy, deli, bakery, bicycle shop, dry cleaners, cafe, home furnishings, possible grocer, etc. store cluster beneath Alta, the Biomedical Garage, McKinley/4th would be great leading into the more nightlife scene toward the north. Otherwise, you have a small cluster of nightlife and deadzones to the south outside Central until you hit CityScape really. And, that isn't what the city should be on build out.

I agree something needs to be done if pricing is still out of control. I mentioned in another thread the possibility of Valley Metro renting out stores in key locations by partnering with someone like Aramark - and eventually pass along ownership - to create small grab-and-go markets with public restrooms, etc. but it seems like even they don't have the funds to plant that seed. At least in that case, you get residents stopping in for goods, riders coming in to use the facilities or shop, and the chances of other stores following goes up exponentially.

Otherwise, I don't know if the developments themselves are willing to set up temporary spaces? Maybe hire a yoga instructor and hold classes next to their fitness center as an added perk for residents and money-maker for guests? Or, open their fitness center to non-residents for a minor fee?

Last comment, I swear - but, signage seems to be a huge issue as well. These new developments really suck at leaving a nice space for retailers to show off their name. Skyline is awful - I had no idea a yoga place was ever there, and still can't tell what's there. Another random example is the Tempe City Garage which also happens to be a yoga studio. They just have posters in the window essentially. These stores need signs outside, lit up, above the entry and off the side if wanted.
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  #5803  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 8:19 PM
soleri soleri is offline
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I think we have too much vacant ground-level retail, but you've argued that these spaces would be filled if only the landlords set realistic rents and expectations. How do we get from here to there? Are there zoning requirements, incentives, or other mechanisms that could actually lead to ground-floor retail being occupied instead of just becoming more vacant space? I can't support more ground-floor retail until I'm convinced something has changed to promote its occupancy.
All you have to do is look at Tapestry to see what a problem it is. Putting two huge ventilation boxes on the front of the building? WTF? If this isn't architectural malpractice, nothing is. Then there are the spaces themselves, which might be usable if there were parking in front of them. But there isn't. So, Phoenix is back to its classic chicken-or-egg problem in terms of finding the density to support the retail which might in turn lead to people wanting to live there, which creates density and walkable urbanism. Retrofitting sprawl is a bitch, needless to say. It's doubly hard when even ground-floor retail is badly designed.
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  #5804  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 8:38 PM
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PHX31 PHX31 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
EXIT: I guess I don't understand your rationale behind not supporting retail now given the current vacancies; don't you think that's a shortsighted stance that could have negative impact on the city in the future? I just want to better understand why you think an inactive wall of apartment windows is better than a wall of empty retail that has the potential to one day be filled?
Just think if you were the owner... would you want to pay for dead space for years (retail sitting empty), or would you want the income from an occupied apartment?

I do think your idea of a community gathering space (like a restaurant) on the ground floor of the future Deco would be a good idea to create some vibrancy which could lead to more... however, look at the retail/restaurant space at Artisan house on Central that used to house Cheuvronts. That place is immediately next to a light rail stop, directly across from the main library, and next to another restaurant (Old Spaghetti Factory) that should create some synergy. Not to mention it's below dozens of residences. The new pizza place looks like it's struggling and Cheuvronts never seemed that busy. If a retail spot in a mixed used development that has seemingly everything going for it isn't very busy and isn't propagating more and more development and retail interest isn't sprouting up (an old historic looking street-fronting retail looking building immediately next door has been closed up for years - I would think that would be a prime candidate for something to go in there with all that's going on around it) I highly doubt a developer is going to waste his money and float "have faith credit" to the City by having his retail sit for years and years unoccupied simply as a good gesture and as a hope that some day the City around will support it. I can't imagine any developer/owner would spend money on that with zero return.

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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Last comment, I swear - but, signage seems to be a huge issue as well. These new developments really suck at leaving a nice space for retailers to show off their name. Skyline is awful - I had no idea a yoga place was ever there, and still can't tell what's there. Another random example is the Tempe City Garage which also happens to be a yoga studio. They just have posters in the window essentially. These stores need signs outside, lit up, above the entry and off the side if wanted.
I think this has more to do with restrictions and standards by the City on signage... that, or developers don't try very hard to get what they can (or ask for signing variances).
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  #5805  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 8:49 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Just think if you were the owner... would you want to pay for dead space for years (retail sitting empty), or would you want the income from an occupied apartment?
Likewise, if I were looking for an apartment or condo, I'd rank buildings in the following order:

1) Building with occupied and useful ground-floor retail (dry cleaning, deli, restaurant, convenience store, shoe repair, etc.)

2) Building with no ground-floor retail but good urban design otherwise

3) Building with mostly vacant ground floor retail

Why? Because vacant retail space is a form of blight. It says any number of things, none of them good: badly designed retail space, unmotivated building management, or lack of vitality in the neighborhood.

For a brand new building, I'd be more forgiving, but for something that has been around several years -- like Alta, Skyline, or many of the buildings on Apache -- the vacant space at ground level would be a negative if all other factors were equal
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  #5806  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 9:19 PM
turpentyne turpentyne is offline
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Exit is right... It's a damned Catch-22. Retailers won't come and fill space because they don't want to sit and wait for the community to be strong enough to support their business. And the community won't come because there's not enough retail to make living in the center of town truly viable.

There needs to be a concerted effort for a grocery store, and a department store. These will anchor the area. Every single thing we want is tied to this. It will signal to smaller shops that there's a growing community. And the area will win over new residents in droves. Problem solved.
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  #5807  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 10:48 PM
dtnphx dtnphx is offline
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Originally Posted by turpentyne View Post
Exit is right... It's a damned Catch-22. Retailers won't come and fill space because they don't want to sit and wait for the community to be strong enough to support their business. And the community won't come because there's not enough retail to make living in the center of town truly viable.

There needs to be a concerted effort for a grocery store, and a department store. These will anchor the area. Every single thing we want is tied to this. It will signal to smaller shops that there's a growing community. And the area will win over new residents in droves. Problem solved.
Exactly, most retailers and/or developers don't want to be first to do anything. It's rare to find the ones willing to take chances. Most people want stuff spelled out with guarantees before they're willing to commit to anything outside their comfort zone.
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  #5808  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 10:55 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Just think if you were the owner... would you want to pay for dead space for years (retail sitting empty), or would you want the income from an occupied apartment?

I do think your idea of a community gathering space (like a restaurant) on the ground floor of the future Deco would be a good idea to create some vibrancy which could lead to more... however, look at the retail/restaurant space at Artisan house on Central that used to house Cheuvronts. That place is immediately next to a light rail stop, directly across from the main library, and next to another restaurant (Old Spaghetti Factory) that should create some synergy. Not to mention it's below dozens of residences. The new pizza place looks like it's struggling and Cheuvronts never seemed that busy. If a retail spot in a mixed used development that has seemingly everything going for it isn't very busy and isn't propagating more and more development and retail interest isn't sprouting up (an old historic looking street-fronting retail looking building immediately next door has been closed up for years - I would think that would be a prime candidate for something to go in there with all that's going on around it) I highly doubt a developer is going to waste his money and float "have faith credit" to the City by having his retail sit for years and years unoccupied simply as a good gesture and as a hope that some day the City around will support it. I can't imagine any developer/owner would spend money on that with zero return.



I think this has more to do with restrictions and standards by the City on signage... that, or developers don't try very hard to get what they can (or ask for signing variances).
I wasn't speaking from a builder's perspective. Of course, I understand the financial implications there. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Though in terms of "floating" a gallery or small store wouldn't have 0 return if it led to the other spaces being rented out.

As far as a space like Cheuvronts, 1) let's face it - the Phoenix market is saturated with restaurants. You need something really great to stand out right now, which is why we need to start building infrastructure for other business like neighborhood, service, clothing, etc. if we want to have a healthy retail mix. And, 2) Look at the list I posted above of the residential projects on tap; some won't get built, but some definitely will. Downtown is still relatively sparsely populated, especially when you take away ASU students who are forced into meal plans. Spaces with great locations like that should rebound just fine.

In terms of signage, I'm sure the city has rules for the way these places have designed their lower levels. But, an awning with a sign on top and/or written on it has to be allowed. I agree with soleri that the designs are terrible, too. Why recess your retail into the shade like Skyline has done? And, not figure out a way to make the filled spaces visible (they average 3 tenants at a time yet everyone here thinks they've been empty forever)? And, amen on parking- I was just thinking of retail along Central and realized there's no parallel parking. Visibility and accessibility - these are key and the combo is too damn rare to find.

Exit: In 30 years, Skyline will be part of a filled in, dense urban neighborhood. At that point, wouldn't you hope that, as a resident, you'd be able to walk to a store to get toothpaste? Or drop off your dry cleaning? Grab coffee before work? How will that be possible if we don't build the infrastructure now. Again, I think retail needs to be designed better (aligned with the upper levels, no setback, high visibility) and developers need to be more strategic about how it is used (aka not every mixed use project needs its entire 1st floor dedicated to retail; using the corners, or spaces next to the lobby, or only 1 side... works just fine) so another Skyline isn't built with a wall of retail facing a parking lot, theater back, and parking garage. The mistakes made by developers during the last boom who gave us templates designs to make a quick buck shouldn't stop us from laying the groundwork for successful central city nodes/districts.

A grocer, or the closest we are going to get, will be coming to Central and Roosevelt. I honestly worry we don't have the market for such a great idea, so I pray it sparks residential projects along Roosevelt, Central, and 1st. Roosevelt has done exceedingly well given the lack of residential along that corridor, but enough is enough: some great looking lofts need to start filling in the dirt lots.

As for a department store, CityScape was probably our best shot at that happening. That project had the momentum and dynamics of retail-residential-hotel that could've made the location somewhat attractive to a big box store. If Colliers builds an iconic looking tower, 2-story retail at the corners would be nice and allow for either a department store or flagship retail store. Otherwise, Van Buren is zoned to become Phoenix's shopping strip with your typical retailers. And, given the state of that street, we are a long ways off. If the Security Building can't lease a space, we aren't getting Macy's on a former auto shop site. This building now has "flagship retail space" on the glass corners, which made me think of getting a multistory department store in an ordinary tower, rather than needing some gigantic footprint or something.

http://www.google.com/search?q=eleve...IFv501XLGJM%3A

Last edited by Jjs5056; Apr 16, 2014 at 11:10 PM.
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  #5809  
Old Posted Apr 16, 2014, 11:19 PM
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pbenjamin pbenjamin is offline
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Maybe it will take the place of that terrible 1 story stucco building on the SWC of Central & Lewis. Assuming the Child help center is no longer in that building, it would be nice for once if a new development that required existing building demolition involved demolishing a horrible building, instead of something relatively nice and historic.
For what it's worth, the Child Help building appears to be 2 stories, at least the southern portion of it.
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  #5810  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2014, 3:21 PM
KevininPhx KevininPhx is offline
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[QUOTE=turpentyne;6542535]What will support occupancy, is the same premise as a shopping mall. There need to be anchors. A department store and a grocery store. These two things will provide the "life essentials" that convince people to move downtown. Problem is, no company will go, for fear of not having enough clientele.

I am not attacking you personally - but I never understand this idea that downtowns need grocery stores. They don't. I've lived in downtowns in NYC, Chicago and LA. Only Chicago had groceries downtown (others didn't then but might now, not sure). I can't imagine that being a dealbreaker for most people. You have delis, restaurants, convenience stores, that kind of thing. Even in Chicago, the grocery stores are tiny and expensive. Every few weeks, you get in a car or cab and head to a big supermarket outside downtown. My personal experience was that people living in downtowns never brought this up as a problem.
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  #5811  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2014, 6:53 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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[QUOTE=KevininPhx;6543637]
Quote:
Originally Posted by turpentyne View Post
What will support occupancy, is the same premise as a shopping mall. There need to be anchors. A department store and a grocery store. These two things will provide the "life essentials" that convince people to move downtown. Problem is, no company will go, for fear of not having enough clientele.
Quote:
I am not attacking you personally - but I never understand this idea that downtowns need grocery stores. They don't. I've lived in downtowns in NYC, Chicago and LA. Only Chicago had groceries downtown (others didn't then but might now, not sure). I can't imagine that being a dealbreaker for most people. You have delis, restaurants, convenience stores, that kind of thing. Even in Chicago, the grocery stores are tiny and expensive. Every few weeks, you get in a car or cab and head to a big supermarket outside downtown. My personal experience was that people living in downtowns never brought this up as a problem.

Grocery Store

I somewhat agree; downtowns are livable without grocery stores. However, not having one gives means it lacks the number of residents they consider a requirement for opening, which can't be a good signal being sent to other retailers. It also gives a more work-play vibe to an area, which could discourage residential development, thus causing the chicken and egg problem.

Lastly, the fact that a grocery store isn't needed to live downtown is one of the main reasons it's lacking - the only people who can afford to live there are the ones who don't need to use a market and prepare their own meals. But, in real cities, that class does exist and a grocery store in the area or on the light rail becomes crucial.

Skyline Retail
Also, can we PLEASE put to rest the tale that Skyline is having a problem with retail? I just checked and they now have Sway Events, Accupuncture, a hair salon, and Holistic Heart. If Yoga Den, which just closed after 3ish years, were still around, they'd have 100% occupancy on the north side - the side facing neighborhoods.

Turpentyne + Warehouse District (thoughts, ideas, drawings)

Building on top or around the existing warehouses is definitely a consideration. There are huge investments and profits that could be made when purchasing in that area. But, there's also risk - in the older structure's rehab, and in the success of whatever the final product is given how desolate the surroundings are likely to be.

**I included some mockups I did of what I'd love to see in these places; 1) I'm not an artist, 2) I'm not an architect, 3) I'm not a planner. These were simply for fun!**

10 E Jackson
For example, this building is 3 stories + a basement, and has been studied and shown to withstand an additional 3 stories on top of it. In addition, there is land to the west of it that could be developed if using subterranean parking. At 1st/Jackson, this could've made an awesome project if we had those visionaries and if the hotels in front of it were allowed to be converted to artistic spaces and not razed.



45 W Buchanan
Another example is this building at 45 Buchanan. 1- the space is huge and could be subdivided into so many spaces with potential monthly rent, or turned into a nightclub of proportions not seen in Phoenix. But, more importantly, the size of the lot is massive, extending north, west, and south: all 3 big enough to fit their own building.

Lincoln/Central
Then, there's just the problem of lack of word of mouth about the businesses down there; several cool venues give it a go, but with the lack of residential and nothing downtown serving to help visitors navigate to the south, it's tough to survive. The Phoenix Produce building on Central and Lincoln is a good example - I had never heard of them, and from the look of the building, I wouldn't believe they had fresh veggies in there. But, they do, as well as e-bikes (motorized bikes) and Chinese herbs and supplements. With that mix, why not call the building "The South Central Green Marketplace," and actually add windows showing off these products (after restoring the gorgeous brickwork)?



Branding The Warehouse District as part of Legends Entertainment District
That's why I think the demolished lot Sarver created on Madison/1st should be turned into Legends Square. There's Legends branding everywhere, but nobody knows what that is, where it begins, etc. In my vision, a high class hotel would will the west side of the St James (to make up for the lost W), with the St James itself serving as either a restaurant/bar for the restaurant or just an eatery. Then, a modern glass addition to the St. James would house the Legends Museum, Speaking Engagements by 'legends,' and serve as the HQ for Legends and Legends Media. The remaining lot would be a park with paved stars, a food truck area, basketball court (and volleyball if able to fit), and a massive touch screen rotating our legends and allowing users to select "music, sports, entertainment..." and get a map with the appropriate locations between Washington and Lincoln. I think building on this brand is our best bet at unifying the warehouses and gaining traction.



It just sucks when you have Michael Levine rebuilding a warehouse brick-by-brick as others sit on gold mines and do nothing, or worse, harm them (aka Ecotality, APS).
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  #5812  
Old Posted Apr 17, 2014, 8:24 PM
turpentyne turpentyne is offline
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KevininPHX. No worries, no offense taken.

I agree it may not be a necessity, but I think at least one medium to large grocery in downtown is key to our success - in large part due to Jjs thoughts on the matter. Also, because we are trying to get a viability threshhold for a walkable/livable downtown. There are many factors in the cities you gave as examples, that balance the lack of stores downtown.

I also suspect part of the reason we don't see a grocery store of good size in certain downtown areas of these larger cities, is because the cities are more 'districted' than Phoenix - being a much younger city. But it can be done. A 4 minute stroll from the dead center of Toronto is the city's largest mall, Eaton Center. I have also seen a tower with a grocery, shops, and a movie theatre, then offices, topped off by condos, in this city.

I'm fine with several more smaller groceries, but they can't be like the failed upscale Oakville grocery store. They need to be affordable.

Maybe I'm just dreamin'! They went and landbanked everything.
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  #5813  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 12:35 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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If the market at DeSoto is profitable, that'll be more than enough to serve downtown's grocery needs. I can't wait - it could become one of downtown's first/only real tourist draw, and being at the foot of Roosevelt is great.

Also, what's going on at CityScape? Is Chloe's gone? Any other changes besides the salon and new barber? Google Maps is showing some crazy things.
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  #5814  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 12:48 AM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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[QUOTE=KevininPhx;6543637]
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Originally Posted by turpentyne View Post
What will support occupancy, is the same premise as a shopping mall. There need to be anchors. A department store and a grocery store. These two things will provide the "life essentials" that convince people to move downtown. Problem is, no company will go, for fear of not having enough clientele.

I am not attacking you personally - but I never understand this idea that downtowns need grocery stores. They don't. I've lived in downtowns in NYC, Chicago and LA. Only Chicago had groceries downtown (others didn't then but might now, not sure). I can't imagine that being a dealbreaker for most people. You have delis, restaurants, convenience stores, that kind of thing. Even in Chicago, the grocery stores are tiny and expensive. Every few weeks, you get in a car or cab and head to a big supermarket outside downtown. My personal experience was that people living in downtowns never brought this up as a problem.
As a downtown resident, I think it is vital for downtowns to have full-service grocery stores. There are actually several grocery stores in "Downtown New York," or Lower Manhattan to those who are familiar with the city. There is a Whole Foods, Food Emporium, and several Trader Joe's in Chelsea. There is an urban Ralph's (Fry's) in Downtown LA, as well. The trend obviously is toward downtown grocers and not away. How are people expected to live downtown without grocery options nearby? It makes no sense. Most people downtown don't want to hop in their cars or in a cab to go grocery shopping. You shouldn't have to. If you look at the MyPlanPHX website you will see that there are multiple comments about the desire to have a grocery store downtown.
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  #5815  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 4:11 AM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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I saw that some units in the Lofts on Thomas that were recently finished as apartments were recently listed for sale. Hopefully this is a good sign for the condo market. I'd love to see some progress on the Portland Place Phase II building.

http://www.redfin.com/AZ/Phoenix/535...obile_app=true

http://www.redfin.com/AZ/Phoenix/535...obile_app=true

http://www.redfin.com/AZ/Phoenix/535...obile_app=true
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  #5816  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 3:08 PM
turpentyne turpentyne is offline
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Does anybody know what's up with the Roosevelt Pointe building, there at 3rd/4th street and Roosevelt? I noticed a for-sale sign, and I've heard murmurs that they lost their pants on the project.
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  #5817  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 3:28 PM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Does anybody know what's up with the Roosevelt Pointe building, there at 3rd/4th street and Roosevelt? I noticed a for-sale sign, and I've heard murmurs that they lost their pants on the project.
Are you sure you didn't see a for-lease sign in some of the 1st floor retail spots? When large occupied commercial projects are put up for sale they generally don't just put a for sale sign out. Instead, they are listed and marketed with commercial real estate brokerage firms.

Where did you hear the project was not doing well? Last time I was at Bliss across the street from Roosevelt Point I saw a steady stream of people and vehicles going in and out of the buildings. Nothing really appeared out of the ordinary to me.
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  #5818  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 3:32 PM
turpentyne turpentyne is offline
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hmmm. Might've been a lease sign.. Ok. I got worried.

That's why I said murmur.. not exactly a reliable source. It just got me thinking, when I saw those signs out of the corner of my eye, driving by.
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  #5819  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 5:19 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Has anyone heard of any progress on Bitter & Twisted? I had forgotten about that place and walked by last Friday night. Doesn't seem like much progress has been made.
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  #5820  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2014, 6:27 PM
gymratmanaz gymratmanaz is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,914
I peaked inside the other week. There is a lot of cool looking brick work completed. The interior will be cool looking. The brick was classy.
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