Georgia DOT eyes tunnel, double-deck for Downtown Connector(Atlanta)

[DetroitMan]

The Downtown Connector is one of Atlanta's most congested stretches of highway. It combines interstates 75 and 85 as they cut through Midtown and Downtown.
Among the "innovative or unconventional ideas" that DOT will consider are additional lanes, new collector-distributor lanes, tunnels (under or parallel to the Connector), new location surface roadway parallel to the Connector, double-decked roadway, and theoretical policy changes such as tolling or implementing occupancy requirements on existing capacity.
Among the more "practical" and "financially realistic" ideas that DOT will look at are alternate routes (and improvements to alternate routes such as widening I-285 east and west), policy changes such as tolls, occupancy requirements, consideration of some type of commuter credits program, which could be used for encouraging the avoidance of trips in the peak periods and the shifting of trips to transit.
"Specifically, a High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) interchange on the Connector at 15th Street will be evaluated to explore the possible effects on traffic on the Connector (the mainline and at existing Single Occupancy Vehicle (SOV) interchanges and on the surface streets leading to the existing interchange access points," DOT says.

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/n...-downtown.html

[SpawnOfVulcan]

I can even fathom how they could possibly squeeze more capacity in certain locations. That road is so interwoven into the urban fabric in some spots that even thinking of weaving anything else in blows my mind.

If they're looking for something large scale there are certain stretches where underground is the only way you could go, right?

[BrownTown]

There's no way they can do anything to the Downtown connector itself without it costing an insane amount of money. The only practical solution is to expand the West side of I-285 and force through traffic onto it instead of going through the city. I guess that might require putting tolls on the connector to keep people off it who don't need to get into downtown Atlanta. Are 18-wheelers already banned on the connector? That would be a good start.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

There's no way they can do anything to the Downtown connector itself without it costing an insane amount of money. The only practical solution is to expand the West side of I-285 and force through traffic onto it instead of going through the city. I guess that might require putting tolls on the connector to keep people off it who don't need to get into downtown Atlanta. Are 18-wheelers already banned on the connector? That would be a good start.

I don't think they are. Birmingham does that too, diverting thru trucks onto 459 unless they're en route to 65.

What I found kind of funny was that the DOT officials in the article made no mention of transit improvement as an alternative. Yes, I realize that like many states in Deep South, state transportation fund can only be spent on auto-related construction. At least, I'm assuming that hasn't changed.....

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by tascalisa

es, I realize that like many states in Deep South, state transportation fund can only be spent on auto-related construction. At least, I'm assuming that hasn't changed.....

It's illegal in Georgia to use money from the gas tax for anything other than roads. Even if it didn't nobody would support expanding MARTA anyways. However, the Downtown Connector carries a LOT of through traffic which couldn't be diverted to mass transit so I'm not sure how much that would help anyways.

The problem was the Atlanta "freeway revolts" which resulted in I-485 being canceled which was supposed to provide the parallel path to the Downtown Connector. With only one North-South freeway pretty much every car going that direction gets funneled into the same spot. The only solution available with current NIMBYism is to FORCE people to take the longer I-285 routes East and West of the city which would then have to be expanded to accommodate the higher traffic volumes.

[fflint]

Okay, so non-road alternatives are not practicable, but all the same, it's still too bad the solution couldn't be better transit connectivity. What percentage of that downtown traffic is 'through-traffic?'

[untitledreality]

How is this even an question? Leave capacity as is, and just toll the hell out of it.

No need to spend billions of dollars to "ease congestion" only to see it fill up again in five years.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by untitledreality

How is this even an question? Leave capacity as is, and just toll the hell out of it.

No need to spend billions of dollars to "ease congestion" only to see it fill up again in five seconds.

Fixed that for yah ^

It just goes to show how short sighted state governments in the Deep South are. We know for a fact that Georgia and Alabama are not allow to spend gas tax on anything other than roads, and the same is probably true in other nearby states (Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana maybe?). Those restrictions were initially introduced to limit funding for methods of transit most used by black folks but these days suggesting to restore that funding is seen as "increasing taxes" or "de-funding highway maintenance" so it's politically unpopular.

So, of course, now we have the Georgia DOT wanting to create a ~7 mile batch of spaghetti.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by untitledreality

How is this even an question? Leave capacity as is, and just toll the hell out of it.

Capacity in Atlanta is insufficient. They have to build something somewhere, the only question is how to do it in the cheapest possible way. This sort of NIMBY attitude isn't going to fix the problem. In fact this attitude is what CREATED the problem as I referenced earlier.

Originally Posted by untitledreality

No need to spend billions of dollars to "ease congestion" only to see it fill up again in five years.

Population growth is a much bigger problem than the scope of this forum, but you're not going to solve it just by not building roads. All that does is push the problem to somewhere else. Avoiding badly needed transportation spending in the country is the problem, not the solution. Billions of dollars in economic activity is thrown down the drain every year by hundreds of thousands of Atlanta workers being stuck in traffic every day. Not to mention the wasted gas from all that stop and go driving.

Originally Posted by tascalisa

It just goes to show how short sighted state governments in the Deep South are.

They actually had a vote for a new tax to fund MARTA expansion, but it lost. So, it's not like they didn't try, people just don't like MARTA.

Originally Posted by tascalisa

So, of course, now we have the Georgia DOT wanting to create a ~7 mile batch of spaghetti.

LOL, the cats already out of the bag on that one. It's just physically impossible to expand the Downtown Connector though and the I-485 tunnel is too expensive. Nothing of note will come out of this study because people have been looking into it forever and there is no magic bullet here.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by tascalisa

Fixed that for yah ^

It just goes to show how short sighted state governments in the Deep South are. We know for a fact that Georgia and Alabama are not allow to spend gas tax on anything other than roads, and the same is probably true in other nearby states (Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana maybe?). Those restrictions were initially introduced to limit funding for methods of transit most used by black folks but these days suggesting to restore that funding is seen as "increasing taxes" or "de-funding highway maintenance" so it's politically unpopular.

So, of course, now we have the Georgia DOT wanting to create a ~7 mile batch of spaghetti.

The tunnel and double deck are not the only options mentioned in the article.

From the article, "Among the more "practical" and "financially realistic" ideas that DOT will look at are alternate routes (and improvements to alternate routes such as widening I-285 east and west), policy changes such as tolls, occupancy requirements, consideration of some type of commuter credits program, which could be used for encouraging the avoidance of trips in the peak periods and the shifting of trips to transit".

The above is more likely to happen. Seeing that raising money to just maintain/repair the highway system was a major issue in the last Georgia Legislature session.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

I'm understanding and agreeing that what L41A is most likely. As anyone who has driven down the Connector would know, there is simply no way to expand capacity in a dramatic/efficient way.

In the end, though, the only option is to truly control traffic on the Connector and increase transit availability for those who travel it. But how is that going to happen? As previous posters have said, you could toll the hell out of it; but honestly, I don't think that necessarily would work. Southerners will always find a "cheaper" route to their destination, and if the toll is "too high" they will indeed find the right route. So, do we want them exiting to local streets that will inevitably be expanded because of their increased congestion? The unavoidable result is disaster; the state DOT can't look to increasing capacity, or tolling, to fix the Connector problem. Increasing capacity just encourages the problem while tolling just diverts the problem to a different location that will eventually require attention.

I'm not trying to criticize Georgia at all, BTW, I live in a state that is much more regressive when it comes to transit funding.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by tascalisa

I'm understanding and agreeing that what L41A is most likely. As anyone who has driven down the Connector would know, there is simply no way to expand capacity in a dramatic/efficient way.

In the end, though, the only option is to truly control traffic on the Connector and increase transit availability for those who travel it. But how is that going to happen? As previous posters have said, you could toll the hell out of it; but honestly, I don't think that necessarily would work. Southerners will always find a "cheaper" route to their destination, and if the toll is "too high" they will indeed find that route. So, do we want them exiting to local streets that will inevitably be expanded because of their increased congestion? The unavoidable result is disaster; the state DOT can't look to increasing capacity, or tolling, to fix the Connector problem. Increasing capacity just encourages the problem while tolling just diverts the problem to a different location that will eventually require attention.

I'm not trying to criticize Georgia at all, BTW, I live in a state that is much more regressive when it comes to transit funding.

Georgia is adding managed toll lanes on I-75 in both south metro (Henry) and north metro (Cobb) plus toll lanes already exist on I-85 on the north side (Gwinnett). My point is that folk seem to be concentrating so much on the title of the article (which is an attention-getter), but when you read the article (at least to me), the message doesn't seem so extreme.

[Atlriser]

Browntown, your comments while mainly true aren't the full picture of the connector/transit issues as you lay them out. Living 4 blocks south of 20 and 8 blocks east of the connector for 13 years now, the two interstates are my neighbors. As a City dweller I can tell you hardly no one local uses the interstates to move around intown. The city streets are much quicker more relaxing and enjoyable to maneuver (except the potholes).

With that said, I've seen reports from GDOT that up to 60% of weekday traffic is just nonlocal North/South traffic. On weekends, it can be over 80% especially holidays. Even in south GA where the population is very very low and 75 is 3-lanes in each direction I've hit 3 and 4 hour traffic jams at 2:00 AM because of the amount of pass-thru traffic. That's one reason I will only fly to Florida now from ATL.

It is illegal for trucks without a downtown itinerary to travel inside 285. Laxly enforced in the past, you will frequently see semis pulled over with a GDOT rep sitting behind them now all over the city. So the trucking community is beginning to change their usage. The truck issue on all of the metro freeways is a true huge issue as Atlanta is one of the largest distribution trucking points in the country. Combined with the Savannah and Brunswick Ports distribution unloading and flowing across the country from GA, you can quickly see the majority of traffic on all of GA interstates is thru traffic. GDOT is also considering truck only North/South (desperately needed) and East/West highways and additional divided lanes on interstates for trucks,which actually is probably a financially and logistically viable options to help solve a large portion of the volume problems and maintenance issues on all of GAs freeways.

285 is already 5-6 lanes on the east side from the airport to almost I 20 on the west and portions of it is now 5 lanes south of Camp Creek on the west side. Both are just as congested and even more congested weekdays from 7 to 10 and 3 to 7. Personally east 285 I refuse to drive even more then the connector due to constant round the clock heavy local traffic. For over 10 years, I used west 285 almost daily from i75 Cobb to I85 South but I've turned to the local roads on portions of this section of 285 especially during rush hour periods due to extremely heavily sitting traffic and hour long waits because of the local commuter traffic. Additionally significant areas of each are also impossible to widen more without being cost prohibitive because of the dense development of the older suburbs 285 links becoming not just high rise offices but also high rise residential living the past 10 years.

THANK GOD 485 WAS NOT BUILT. After 30 years of lawsuits, GDOT caved and we now have freedom parkway and freedom park. Gems in the city! Building 485 would have completed and I mean completely destroyed all of what became the east side after 75/85 split downtown in half. 1/2 of downtown Decatur and the high dollar Atlanta/Dekalb neighborhoods down Ponce would be asphalt under 485 as well if built as envisioned. Coincidentally this same east side is the booming area where in the past 5 years over 10,000 residential units have been built that was decimated and mostly vacant since the 60s and the GDOT lawsuits. Ponce City Market is finishing up and office mid rises are now beginning to infill on what land is available finally beginning to create a true walking city which is all connected by the belt line and freedom park/parkway as a means of transit. All this would have been another 20 lane traffic filled smoggy nightmare if GDOT had won in the 60s and 70s with I 485. Thus resulting in even more people living 30 miles away driving into downtown for work. If this freeway was built, it probably and most likely would have drove the final nail into the originally Marta. Marta barely survived back in the late 60's after Cobb, Clayton and Gwinnett withdrew from the system during the initial planning. Speak with transportation officials from that time and they will tell you that 485 would have killed Marta completely since Decatur and the east side areas were a stronghold pushing for Its creation. They wouldn't exist today if 485 did.

Because of the current connector, many of these neighborhoods have never recovered from being decimated by the interstates and they destroyed the walkability and beauty of the city for its residents which is just now being acknowledged by the Feds and addressed by local government 40 years later. My neighborhood, Grant Park, the largest historic district (I believe) has ⅓ north of 20 and ⅔ south of it and it's very frustrating and difficult keeping the needs of both sides in sync and held together when they are separated by 20 lanes of asphalt, connection/distribution, roads, ramps, bridges and 300,000 to 400,000 cars a day driving between them. Once being all Victorian style with some craftsmen, much of the north looks very different and suffered heavily becoming substantially abandoned and crime filled until the slow recovery the past 15-20 years which has brought it more in sync with the south portion. The south section held onto the park, more of the street grid, trees and neighborhood mentality but became physically disconnected via foot and transit from the rest of Atlanta (one reason while its true we are disconnected and used as an excuse but isn't the true reason the Braves are leaving the area to Cobb. ((Most of us can't wait for them to pack in the neighbor so be ready Cobb locals, you'll regret it soon enough, go today if you want!))

While it's true the transportation tax failed 2 years ago, to say no one wanted transit is a complete falsehood. The way it was set up combining booming just developing rural to suburban counties, denser yet ring suburb counties with developed highrise office districts and urban mostly fully developed core counties under one tax with 1 project list created by all the counties was a farce vote the GA legislature should have never even wasted time and resources considering. It should have failed eventhough I voted yes. There were plenty of big ticket transit items on the list and the vote in the core counties was in favor. The more suburban counties which do mainly need additional road capacity as well as the beginning of transit routes said overwhelmingly no because of the expensive transit intown that they would be paying to build and would never ever provide function to them or even connection points in the future to the network. Furthermore, the vote was conducted at the height of the Atlanta downturn and it was not a good time at all to ask more from the citizenry that was struggling probably the worst that Atlanta has ever struggled from a financial perspective. I tend to agree with the no vote logic. Shame on the legislature for the stupidity and lack of true resolve and honest debate to start solving the issues on mobility in GA 10 years ago and then the suburban republicans knowingly drafting the tax to ensure failure and further creating this us versus them mentality within the metro to create divisions is PATHETIC. Opinion here, but I think most of Atlantans are getting sick of the old suburban republican versus city democrat attitude the legislature constantly tries to insight and we the actual people all see the same issue and want the same things out of life. The problems is really that damn gold dome and the jerks inside it. Sorry side tracked!

Since then, Clayton County (core mostly developed) has actually voted to join Marta outright through an additonal tax. The phase 1 bus network has already been implemented, additional bus and BRT routes based on usage and flow needs are being planned for next 2 years and part of the tax proceeds are being saved for rail as they are beginning the long planning and permitting process with extensions and new stations south of the airport coming online in 2020 hopefully. Marta has its highest customer satisfaction scores in its history, has eliminated yearly deficits, is receiving positive word of mouth among Atlantans when you hear about it usually and is operating in the black consistently. North Fulton residents and businesses are pushing hard for a 12 mile extension into what is essentially white upper middle class corporate neighborhoods that I never envisioned accepting Marta, the on/off/on/off/who knows Clifton/CDC/North Decatur linkage is hunting for money sources as everyone seems to agree and want this built (part of area 485 would have killed). Marta can be useful to be the backbone commuter rail type connection to the city. Marta isn't the answer for the connector problems though and while I hope it expands as a backbone system for distance travel within the metro it just simply will never be a convenient means for local short distance neighborhood travel within Atlanta since it is heavy rail and is just as disruptive to neighborhoods as the interstates. (Another issue which came just as the initial interstates were built and completely wiped out and separated more sections of neighborhoods where it ran through the city in the 70s.)

[Atlriser]

After that extensive wordiness, the issue for the 485,000 people living in Atlanta is that the connector destroys the city and splits us apart preventing local point to point connections east/west and easy mobility outside the realm of using a car. You try crossing one of those bridges spanning 20 to 24 lanes of baking asphalt with bumper to bumper cars in the GA summer even at midnight (you'll fry your brain worse then those silly drug commercials from the 90's).

To us we would like to see it gone and the city streets returned but that's impossible.

My thoughts: First though unpopular to environmentalist but would probably long term help the environment the state/Feds need to create a "freight moving" interstate to eliminate huge volumes and safety issues off the "people moving" current interstates in GA. Then there must be a new rurally routed additional North/South interstate. ( maybe even very very limited exits so is a free flowing non local used roadway built for the millions of Northerns to travel in and out of the coastal southern areas which currently travel via the the urban constrained I75, I85 and I95 which all pass through GA. The current network will still be maxed out by the continued development from DC to Atlanta and that's even beginning to now finger out to Birmingham, Montgomery, and Columbus like one huge developed metro resembling the northeast corridor. This is the only way to solve the pass thru and logistic transit issues that the connector suffers from today and thus giving new capacity room for the continued development of the local commuter use growth. These are the true issues causing much of the capacity needs on the connector and 285. What other road ways are there for the millions to the north to reach the coast? I95 is even worse along much of it!. Fixing the real issues of logistics and distance travelers could result in additional capacity needs not being needed on the connector. But adding capacity by any method GDOT thinks of on the existing route does NOTHING for the actual citizens of the city who suffer this current roadway and will only continue to build the congestion because it's not addressing the true problems facing the whole transportation network within our state. Additional routes with extremely limited local access are needed especially north/south in GA for the whole eastern seaboard and coastal transportation networks to function more optimally everywhere not only within GA.

[BrownTown]

Reading most of what you said I was going to point out that you have a very city oriented view of things and that Suburban Atlanta and Urban Atlanta never agree on anything, but then you said they now do so I'll take your word for it. I'm not sure I really agree, especially when it comes to the older generations who make these sort of politician decisions, but I can't really prove you wrong either. When looking at this earlier it was pretty clear to me that there was no solution within I-285 that could fix the problems on the connector, but your suggestion of an entirely new North-South interstate is quite interesting. It would have to be well outside of Atlanta though since the whole are is too sprawled full of suburbs to route a new interstate through. Connecting I-75 in Macon North to I-85 all the way up North of Winder looks open enough for a new interstate but that would cost Billions (of course so would anything in Atlanta). I actually think you are on the right track here. Ironically the "out of the box" thinking that this study is looking for is totally at odds with its inside the box focus only on the inside of I-285. I still think I-485 should have been built though. I know it's in YOUR backyard, but someone always has to get screwed by new transportation projects. A 100 mile North South interstate is going to screw with a lot of rural people who don't want it in their backyard any more than you want I-485 in yours.

[untitledreality]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Capacity in Atlanta is insufficient. They have to build something somewhere, the only question is how to do it in the cheapest possible way. This sort of NIMBY attitude isn't going to fix the problem. In fact this attitude is what CREATED the problem as I referenced earlier.

The problem seems to be poor urban planning and a overutilized/underpriced highway system. Adding capacity won't 'fix' anything, it will just induce demand and a continuation of previous policies that created the original problem.

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Population growth is a much bigger problem than the scope of this forum, but you're not going to solve it just by not building roads. All that does is push the problem to somewhere else. Avoiding badly needed transportation spending in the country is the problem, not the solution. Billions of dollars in economic activity is thrown down the drain every year by hundreds of thousands of Atlanta workers being stuck in traffic every day. Not to mention the wasted gas from all that stop and go driving.

Managing population growth is the responsibility of the planning and zoning council, not the state DOT. There needs to be a comprehensive effort to cluster job centers and population centers to best utilize the existing infrastructure network of Atlanta. Starting with a massive upzoning of the low density areas directly surrounding Midtown, Downtown, GT, etc. To simply continue the pattern of land use that has time and time again caused the same transportation problems is the definition of lunacy.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by untitledreality

To simply continue the pattern of land use that has time and time again caused the same transportation problems is the definition of lunacy.

That's purely a matter of personal preference though. People in the US (and especially the South) like their suburban lifestyle and are willing to spend the extra money it costs to support it. The city planners have heard the voice of the locals and are responding with what they want (more roads to support their suburban lifestyle). This isn't a communist country where we can force people to live how we think hey should. The people in Atlanta have a choice of how they want to live and this is the choice they have chosen. As you point out, it isn't the job of the GDOT to tell them how to live, it's just their job to provide the roads the people demand.

[Ryanrule]

fucking suburban south.

[cityscapes]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

That's purely a matter of personal preference though. People in the US (and especially the South) like their suburban lifestyle and are willing to spend the extra money it costs to support it. The city planners have heard the voice of the locals and are responding with what they want (more roads to support their suburban lifestyle). This isn't a communist country where we can force people to live how we think hey should. The people in Atlanta have a choice of how they want to live and this is the choice they have chosen. As you point out, it isn't the job of the GDOT to tell them how to live, it's just their job to provide the roads the people demand.

Do you really believe the masses choose their own lifestyle based purely on their high functioning, educated and independent thinking skills?

I don't. The support for the suburban lifestyle came into existence through as much social engineering as it would take to get them to live in a high rise.

This is a capitalist country where we can force people to live how we think they should based on advertising and media that capitalizes on their insecurities and cultural aspirations.