HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > Transportation & Infrastructure


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #181  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 11:38 PM
babs babs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65MAX View Post
If MAX was proposed for that elevated structure, the neighbors nearby would be very supportive.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that meeting. I'm not buying it. I'm not against it but I know people in that area and it would surprise me if they would be open to it. But it's not my call.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #182  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 7:07 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Powell-Division rapid bus proposal would be slower than existing bus



Regional planners thought they had come up with a promising plan to speed up service in an area where many residents rely on transit to get around.

A Metro regional government committee back in 2014 settled on bus rapid transit, which pairs high-capacity buses with a bag of other tricks to keep buses moving. Passengers would board through multiple doors, like on light rail, and priority signals would let the buses sail past other traffic at stoplights.

Just one problem: Two years into the planning, new numbers show it would actually be slower for many riders along Southeast Division Street and Powell Boulevard than the existing bus service.

The calculations from TriMet, the Portland-area transit agency, show it would actually take the bus rapid transit line 8 to 11 minutes longer to travel from Gresham Transit Center to downtown Portland than the Line 4 bus. That's largely because of the line heads south to a more congested Powell before going back north to downtown.
...continues at the Oregonian.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #183  
Old Posted May 26, 2016, 7:07 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
I'm curious about how they'll cross the river. If they use the Tilikum Crossing (as originally planned) the bus would have to cross the railroad tracks at grade to get to Division. If they use the Hawthorne Bridge (as the 4 currently does) the bus will be stuck in traffic on SW Madison during peak hours, unless they dedicate a lane to transit. The latter option is proposed as part of Central City 2035, and would have big benefits for the 14 as well.

Quote:
Powell likely to be dropped from Powell-Division rapid bus project



Rapid-bus service proposed for Division Street and Powell Boulevard in Southeast Portland might move ahead — but without Powell.

After learning in March that the Powell-Division proposal would be slower for many riders than the bus it would replace, a Metro committee is now considering the service solely along Division Street.

Eliminating the detour to Powell, planners for the regional government say, would likely provide faster service than the existing Line 4 bus.
...continues at the Oregonian.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #184  
Old Posted May 27, 2016, 5:13 AM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
To answer my own question: it looks like the Hawthorne is the more likely choice. Here's the latest report to the Steering Committee.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #185  
Old Posted May 28, 2016, 9:58 PM
Photogeric Photogeric is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 285
The only thing that should be considered for the Hawthorne Corridor is a new streetcar line.... Just sayin
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #186  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2016, 3:32 AM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
BRANDED REGULAR TRANSIT

What would happen if a local, well-respected bar owner decided to open up a new taproom in a part of the city that has historically lacked any decent bar options, and promises to have “the world’s best selection of craft beers, wines, and spirits” and be open to everyone’s feedback regarding the menu? The locals would get excited of course, but they might get a little confused as to why the new bar is named “Craft Beer Central” if it is to serve such a multitude of offerings. Then, just before opening, the owner announces that the bar won’t actually serve anything other than PBR on tap, and knew this for a long time without telling anyone. At the soft opening, the few people who have remained enthused get one last letdown, as the new bar only serves one thing: a room-temperature Bud Light poured from a can into a frosted Base Camp pint glass. This is the story of the Powell-Division Transit and Development Project, albeit with public transit and not private libations.

After the results of the last two national election cycles, and the unhindered escalation of capital project costs in the United States, the local regional government, Metro, decided to finally push for a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) project in Portland. This was music to many local transit wonks’ gleeful ears who’ve wanted to try this modality in their own backyards for decades. Now, unlike the Southwest Corridor Plan which actually did due diligence on mode choice, the Powell-Division project was custom-tailored to exclude all options except BRT. In addition, despite having a very wide, all-encompassing project boundary, the name and meeting materials hinted that they wanted a Powell and Division only project from the very beginning. The preordained mode and corridor choice was immediately spun as a monetarily efficient, short turnaround, and equitable solution for an area that is mostly underfunded, historically quick fixed, and politically unequal to its more affluent neighboring communities.
...continues at Places over Time.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #187  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2016, 3:34 AM
green_man green_man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
To answer my own question: it looks like the Hawthorne is the more likely choice. Here's the latest report to the Steering Committee.
I hate for my very first post on these boards (hey everyone!) after months of lurkerdom to be a whine about something, but seriously.... Hawthorne? A grade-separated crossing over the UPRR and MAX tracks, in the vicinity of SE 7th or 8th, connecting Division with Tilikum Way would be a worthy investment in this corridor and would allow Division BRT (though it's not so "Rapid" anymore) easy access to the Tilikum Bridge.

Last edited by green_man; Jun 3, 2016 at 10:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #188  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2016, 5:40 AM
cailes cailes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 314
As with any project that has the makings of being spectacular, it must be dumbed down by people's impossible need to not create dedicated lanes for buses.

It is disappointing how we cow toe to LOS for cars on these admittedly clogged arteries but we all know the answer to providing rapid and reliable transit service.

take the lane.... its calling to us.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #189  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2016, 1:55 PM
sergeim105 sergeim105 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 3
Letter from Metro

I got the letter below in response to an email I and others sent to Bob Stacey expressing our lack of enthusiasm for the direct of the Powell/Division BRT. It was nice to see a reply to this.

I was one of the person's interested in a larger scale (raised LRT, or BRT) project and am of the thinking that this sort of project is a short sighted. I don't really think just because there is federal money available we need to just take it and spend it unless it is actually going to be a real benefit.

"Dear Neighbors,

Thanks for sending me your thoughts and concerns about aspects of the Powell-Division bus rapid transit project, particularly the proposal to make it an all-Division alignment. I appreciate your insights, and am sharing your letters with project staff here at Metro so that they will be part of the public record to be considered by the project steering committee, which I co-chair.

I’ve received seven emails in response to the letter in last week’s Portland Tribune. I’ve also reviewed a large number of comments that neighbors have shared on Nextdoor online. Forgive me if I don’t respond in detail to every point you have made. However, I want to share my perspective with you.

The effort to improve transit in the Powell and Division corridors began three years ago. The project steering committee includes government representatives from Metro, TriMet, Oregon Department of Transportation, Multnomah County, the cities of Portland and Gresham, and Mt. Hood and Portland community colleges; and community members representing Southeast Uplift, the East Portland Neighborhood Coalition, Gresham neighborhoods, and community-based organizations including APANO and the Jade District, OPAL Environmental Justice, and the East Portland Action Plan. The project goal was (and is) to improve the ride for the 17,000 daily trips taken on the 4 Division and 9 Powell lines, two of TriMet’s busiest bus routes, and to add capacity for future growth in that ridership.

The project finance plan includes up to $100 million in “Small Starts” funding available from the Federal Transit Administration for qualifying “Bus Rapid Transit” projects. TriMet could build a lot of transit improvements for the 16-mile corridor from Portland to Gresham for $100 million, plus the required local match money: a fleet of 90-passenger bendy buses, smart traffic signals to get the buses through intersections, stations with better passenger amenities, sidewalk and crossing improvements, and even some lengths of preferential transit lanes (on Division east of 82nd). A core consideration for federal money is that the improvements also reduce the time needed to traverse the route.

The initial route favored by the steering committee followed Powell Blvd from the Tilikum Crossing to 82nd Avenue, up 82nd to Division, then east on Division to Gresham and Mt Hood Community College. That alignment takes advantage of the widest streets, and directly serves neighborhoods with greater needs for active transportation and pedestrian safety improvements than inner Division’s neighborhoods, as well as lower median household incomes.

Unfortunately, ODOT--which owns Powell and 82nd, both state highways—rejected any consideration of transit improvements that would reduce the car and truck traffic capacity of either street. Widening the right-of-way to provide room for transit-preferential lanes would have been beyond the project’s feasible budget; and operating buses on this “zig-zag” alignment without such transit improvements would take longer travel times from Gresham to Portland than either of the existing bus lines that go straight down Division and Powell. That led the Steering Committee to begin looking at an all-Division alignment earlier this year.

I’m a regular rider on the 4 Division, and have been been for 40 years—beginning back when the Division bus was a branch of the old 52nd Avenue line. I’ve been passed up by full buses in the morning and evening peaks. So I strongly believe transit riders in our neighborhoods on inner Division will be better served by higher-capacity buses.

I also remember the disastrous experience TriMet had in the 70s and 80s with the Crown-Ikarus articulated bus fleet, which were poorly designed and underpowered. I have ridden modern bendy buses in many other cities, including Vancouver BC, Seattle, Eugene and just across the river in Vancouver USA. They’re much better machines nowadays, and they operate as well as or better than standard 40-foot transit buses in tight urban environments. So I also believe it’s a great improvement to deploy these 60-foot buses, with their greater passenger capacity, on the 4 Division line.

I live five blocks south of Division, so every time I ride I walk at least six blocks to my stop. So I’m very aware that stop spacing is an important consideration for rider convenience and for accessibility for all ages and abilities. I appreciate the feedback the project is receiving about TriMet’s efforts to reduce the number of stops along the Division route in order to reduce the total travel time. My own view is that while two or three blocks between stops is inefficient and unnecessary, more than five blocks is just too far.

Finally some have expressed great disappointment about the scale of the transit project, arguing that it’s not true bus rapid transit because it lacks the exclusive lanes that allow transit vehicles to avoid being slowed by other traffic, the way MAX travels in its own lane or other right of way. We can’t get that level of BRT within the funding limits of the federal “Small Starts” program; but the federal agency folks continue to tell our staff that the level of time savings we’re looking at from signal improvements, quicker passenger loading and unloading through three doors, and, yes, fewer stops along the 16 mile route can qualify as “BRT” under their rules.

Others have argued that the region should focus on a bigger, faster, higher-capacity transit project, such as a light rail alignment along Powell from the Tilikum Crossing out to Gresham. We can’t do that on a “small starts” grant budget, and the Portland region is already pursuing federal approval of a major light rail investment (from a larger federal grant program called “New Starts”) in the Southwest corridor along Barbur and I-5 from downtown Portland to Tigard and Tualatin. We simply don’t have the resources to go after two projects of that scale at the same time, and the feds are not likely to help fund two at once, either.

But I don’t think this is an “either-or” transit choice for southeast Portland. Every frequent-service bus line should get the kinds of improvements we're trying to get for the Division line. And Powell should keep its status in the regional high capacity transit plan as a high priority alignment for the next major regional and federal investment in light rail.

Again, I’m grateful for your input and encourage you to continue to be engaged as this transit planning continues. There will be a project open house this Monday, August 15 at St. Philip Neri Church on Division at 17th, at 5:00 pm. The project steering committee will meet next in late September. You can follow the project online at http://www.oregonmetro.gov/public-pr...opment-project and take the public survey that’s available at that website.

And of course, continue to let me know what you think.

Thanks.
Bob

Bob Stacey
Metro Councilor, District 6
bob.stacey@oregonmetro.gov
503-358-1655 (cell)"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #190  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2016, 8:10 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
Submarine de Nucléar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4,477
^ Time for a subway? Buses are great for local lines with many stops, but we need urban mobility which is rapidly going down the tubes for mid-to-long journeys, and a fully grade-separated system would help with that.

Anecdotally, I recently spent over 1.5 hours commuting between Sellwood and Barbur Blvd Distance = ~3 miles. Totally blew my mind how bad and congested the westside is becoming!

Keep the MAX system operating as the regional trains that they are, and build a subway to whisk people around inside the city. Build a grid system like Jarrett Walker, author of humantransit.org and expert on transportation systems has recommended:
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #191  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2016, 2:35 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
^ Time for a subway? Buses are great for local lines with many stops, but we need urban mobility which is rapidly going down the tubes for mid-to-long journeys, and a fully grade-separated system would help with that.

Anecdotally, I recently spent over 1.5 hours commuting between Sellwood and Barbur Blvd Distance = ~3 miles. Totally blew my mind how bad and congested the westside is becoming!

Keep the MAX system operating as the regional trains that they are, and build a subway to whisk people around inside the city. Build a grid system like Jarrett Walker, author of humantransit.org and expert on transportation systems has recommended:
It would be cool if the streetcar system was used as a city subway system, running 3 trains long or something like that. The streetcar should be used as the city's urban mobility, but I feel like the single car, sitting in traffic system that we currently have is more of a novelty than a useful transit system.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #192  
Old Posted Sep 9, 2016, 10:18 AM
hat hat is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 381
Any traffic engineers here? How much does typical cut-and-cover cost? The project funding is very low (estimated $100) as reported by Bob Stacey's letter. Given that there has always been one essential flaw in the existing Powell-Division corridor, namely congestion on inner Powell, would it be possible to spend that money on a redesign of these few blocks in particular (as opposed to new buses etc)? This redesign could allow for future LRT and bike lanes, reconnect neighborhoods (making Cleveland HS safe), and generally solve the buses-are-slower problem. How much money would 10 blocks cost (say from 23rd to 33rd)?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #193  
Old Posted Oct 31, 2016, 7:22 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Community groups ambivalent on pared back 'rapid bus' proposal



An ambitious proposal to run a "rapid-bus" line through Southeast Portland to Gresham is poised to move ahead even as a series of cuts have left community groups lukewarm.

The high-capacity line, envisioned to serve parts of Southeast Powell and a stretch of 82nd Avenue before continuing along Southeast Division Street to Mt. Hood Community College, will now do none of those things.

Instead, it would run along Division Street only between downtown Portland and the Gresham Transit Center. It would replace a stretch of the frequent-service Line 4 bus responsible for 10,000 trips a day, and where buses regularly pass waiting riders by because they're filled to capacity.

The abbreviated route, however, has raised concerns the project will do little for residents of East Portland and Gresham and stretch out the gentrification and displacement already seen along close-in Division.
...continues at the Oregonian.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #194  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2017, 7:08 AM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
New page on TriMet's website.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #195  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2017, 5:41 AM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
Online open house, with some nice graphics of the various designs for the bus stops. I really like the floating bus stops that they'll install for all but one of the stops between 82nd and 174th.

While it's great that the project will make use of the Tilikum Crossing, I'm curious about how they're going to handle an at-grade crossing of the Union Pacific tracks. It's not hard to imagine a bus sitting there for 10 minutes waiting for a train to clear the crossing.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #196  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2017, 6:15 AM
urbanlife's Avatar
urbanlife urbanlife is offline
A before E
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Milwaukie, Oregon
Posts: 11,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
Online open house, with some nice graphics of the various designs for the bus stops. I really like the floating bus stops that they'll install for all but one of the stops between 82nd and 174th.

While it's great that the project will make use of the Tilikum Crossing, I'm curious about how they're going to handle an at-grade crossing of the Union Pacific tracks. It's not hard to imagine a bus sitting there for 10 minutes waiting for a train to clear the crossing.
That is the problem with the 70 bus, it is usually on time, but then there are days when it feels like it is never gonna come and that is because it is sitting at the tracks waiting on a freight train.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #197  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2017, 3:35 PM
RED_PDXer RED_PDXer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 794
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
While it's great that the project will make use of the Tilikum Crossing, I'm curious about how they're going to handle an at-grade crossing of the Union Pacific tracks. It's not hard to imagine a bus sitting there for 10 minutes waiting for a train to clear the crossing.
I've heard that TriMet is going to pay UP to install powered switches at Brooklyn Yard to minimize delays from trains entering the yard. Right now, engineers exit their train to go throw a switch themselves. Powered switches should theoretically reduce the delay. If that doesn't work, I suppose the Hawthorne Bridge isn't out of the question.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #198  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2017, 12:08 PM
cailes cailes is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Seattle
Posts: 314
Thats crazy that UP hasn't already done that on their own. The time they waste on this sort of thing should make it worth the expense of converting.

But hey, who knows
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #199  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2017, 11:04 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
That sounds like it would reduce the number of trains that are stopped, but I don't see how it would help with the amount of time it takes a train just to get passed the crossing? Freight trains are loooooooong.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #200  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2017, 7:28 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Portland
Posts: 7,404
Quote:
Faster buses, better biking: Weigh in on TriMet’s Division Transit project



Remember Metro and TriMet’s attempt to build a bus rapid transit line between downtown Portland and Gresham?

Three years ago the agencies embarked on an ambitious plan to route super-fast buses along SE Powell Blvd.

Unfortunately, a reluctance to constrain existing auto capacity on busy 82nd Avenue — a key link in the route — led to projected bus travel times that fell below federal requirements. In other words, their “bus rapid transit” wasn’t rapid enough.

The new plan agreed to by both agencies and a steering committee is to make significant bus upgrades and route a new, “high capacity transit” line on Division Street. If funding plans materialize as expected (they’re hoping to get into President Trump’s infrastructure budget), the $175 million project is scheduled to open in 2021 and will run 14 miles from Northwest Portland to the Gresham Transit Center/Mt. Hood Community College.
...continues at BikePortland.
__________________
"Maybe to an architect, they might look suspicious, but to me, they just look like rocks"

www.twitter.com/maccoinnich
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Pacific West > Portland > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:40 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.