Mercers Top 20 Most Liveable Cities 2017

[mhays]

It's not even that. A livability rating is about the application of easy-to-find, simplistic statistics on a topic where these only hint at reality.

[Metro-One]

Nice try.

I know it is hard (or god forbid even politically incorrect these days) to admit but nearly all of the criteria used in these lists are what most people in the world would consider to be pretty important for a good quality of life.

Safety, the economy, social welfare, etc... are not trivial items.

That is not to say you can't have more fun somewhere else. I had a fantastic time in Senegal, but I sure as hell would not want to live and raise a family in Dakar.

Maybe, just maybe, the western world and parts of East Asia have figured something out... At least for our present moment in time.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by hunser

Meh, Vienna is not that liveable.

How so?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Nice try.

I know it is hard (or god forbid even politically incorrect these days) to admit but nearly all of the criteria used in these lists are what most people in the world would consider to be pretty important for a good quality of life.

Safety, the economy, social welfare, etc... are not trivial items.

But they aren't looking at safety or the economy, really. They're looking at fairly particular things that don't necessarily have universal appeal.

It isn't clear to me that the average household would weight "social welfare" higher than "median income" or "relationships with other countries" higher than "homeownership rate".

And obviously every first world city is safe with a reasonably prosperous economy. It isn't like the average household in Metro Detroit has greater danger than the average household in Metro Copenhagen.

[isaidso]

I think therein lies your confusion. You're making a lot of assumptions that just don't hold up to scrutiny. They're certainly looking at safety, the economy, median income, and social services. They all speak to quality of life. I doubt relationships with other countries factors in at all.

Then there's crime. A lot of Americans take offense to the suggestion that their cities are less safe than cities like Vancouver, Tokyo, or Copenhagen. In most US cities the way one shields oneself from violence is by making a lot of money. The wealthy can live in a peaceful part of town but that's not an option for a big proportion of the population.

If you're a wealthy American you get to live in a bubble to a degree.

[dc_denizen]

West coast cities like San Diego, Denver, Seattle and Portland are just as safe as Vancouver or Edmonton or Calgary generally. Nothing to do with wealth, in fact median and low percentile incomes are probably higher in these us cities on a ppp adjusted basis. The differences in per capital homicide rates are minute and mostly due to slightly different demographics

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I think therein lies your confusion. You're making a lot of assumptions that just don't hold up to scrutiny. They're certainly looking at safety, the economy, median income, and social services. They all speak to quality of life. I doubt relationships with other countries factors in at all.

Again, the survey isn't looking at such things. They're looking at very particular factors. Things like "income inequality" and "relationships with other countries" are very odd variables for ranking cities. Why would a typical family prefer living Stockholm over Milan because of the particulars of Swedish foreign policy? Nonsensical.

If you just look at the normal stuff families care about, like access to good jobs, median income, healthcare and the like, you would likely have a very different list.

Originally Posted by isaidso

Then there's crime. A lot of Americans take offense to the suggestion that their cities are less safe than cities like Vancouver, Tokyo, or Copenhagen. In most US cities the way one shields oneself from violence is by making a lot of money. The wealthy can live in a peaceful part of town but that's not an option for a big proportion of the population.


If you're a wealthy American you get to live in a bubble to a degree.

This is all nonsense. The data show that American cities aren't less safe than these other cities. To take an extreme comparison, the typical family in Metro Detroit isn't appreciably less safe than the typical family in Metro Copenhagen.

You're confused because you're using inner city murder rates as a proxy for metropolitan crime rates. Crime rates in the U.S. aren't much higher than in other Western countries and have little to do with murder rates.

And when you say "Detroit", you're talking about the city proper, which has only 10% of the metro area population, so is largely irrelevant to "Detroit" crime rates. A typical family isn't going to be significantly safer from crime moving from Detroit to Calgary or Brisbane or wherever.

The U.S. is horrible at murder rates, not crime rates. And the murder is hyper-concentrated among very small geographies and very limited demographics. The typical crimes that realistically threaten average families- larceny, robbery, fraud, sex crimes and the like, aren't particularly high by Western standards.

[PFloyd]

You two guys (crawford and denizen) are trying to cover the Sun with one finger - you might delude yourselves, but the Sun shines bright and clear for everyone else.

The fact is that American cities have large sections (whether it is in what you call the 'inner city' or the suburbs) where crime is very high. If it happens in specially the guettos (black or otherwise), it shows that there is (and has been for its entire history) a huge schism in American society, which has never occurred in other first world nations.

I lived both in South Florida and the Midwest for many years, and there were many areas you had to be crazy to go through in a car, let alone by foot! - remember the news when tourists exiting the Dolphin Expressway at the wrong exit, landed them in Liberty City and got shot at in a robbery attempt? or when trying to go out at night to the bars in Coconut Grove, going through the black ghetto and the same thing happened?

I have WALKED extensively throughout downtown Toronto even very late at night (3:00a) on weekends and I have never felt intimidated, not even once.
That is what it means to live in a safe city.

Stop putting a spin on it - you are not fooling anyone who's spent significant time in the US.

As I mentioned earlier in a previous post, in regards to crime and safety, American cities are more on par with Latin American cities, where the wealthy live in their bubbles, and are insulated from the 'bad hombres' as your president likes to say.

By the way, The Economist ran a story about the world's most violent cities a few weeks ago. Unsurprisingly, for a First World country, the US doesn't fair very well:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-3

[barney82]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

You two guys (crawford and denizen) are trying to cover the Sun with one finger - you might delude yourselves, but the Sun shines bright and clear for everyone else.

The fact is that American cities have large sections (whether it is in what you call the 'inner city' or the suburbs) where crime is very high. If it happens in specially the guettos (black or otherwise), it shows that there is (and has been for its entire history) a huge schism in American society, which has never occurred in other first world nations.

I lived both in South Florida and the Midwest for many years, and there were many areas you had to be crazy to go through in a car, let alone by foot! - remember the news when tourists exiting the Dolphin Expressway at the wrong exit, landed them in Liberty City and got shot at in a robbery attempt? or when trying to go out at night to the bars in Coconut Grove, going through the black ghetto and the same thing happened?

I have WALKED extensively throughout downtown Toronto even very late at night (3:00a) on weekends and I have never felt intimidated, not even once.
That is what it means to live in a safe city.

Stop putting a spin on it - you are not fooling anyone who's spent significant time in the US.

As I mentioned earlier in a previous post, in regards to crime and safety, American cities are more on par with Latin American cities, where the wealthy live in their bubbles, and are insulated from the 'bad hombres' as your president likes to say.

By the way, The Economist ran a story about the world's most violent cities a few weeks ago. Unsurprisingly, for a First World country, the US doesn't fair very well:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-3

Most or just about all people on this forum range from middle class to upper-middle class. If you are middle class or higher in the USA, the higher rate of urban crime essentially doesn't affect you.

In the NYC area, I would argue that even relatively poor people have access to reasonably safe neighborhoods (most immigrant neighborhoods). To the point where if there is a higher murder rate in say Sunnyside Queens or Bayridge Brooklyn than in similar areas of Toronto or Stockholm, the chance of getting murdered is well well down the ranking of the various risks (medical, accident, etc) we all face throughout the world.

I, living my life in America, honestly do not worry about violent crime. This is anecdotal, but on my recent trips to Paris, Rome, Naples, and the UK, I actually felt at much greater risk of getting pickpocketed (well I did get pickpocketed) or beat up than I feel in NYC. Anything more than getting beat up is not something I felt worried about either here or there.

[montréaliste]

I have to side with PFloyd on the subject of violent crime in the US context.

The problem with discounting criminal statistics by relegating responsibility to a "certain demographic" is that it somehow glosses over the problem of segregation. The continued, institutionalized segregation or disintegration on a large scale that has led to two cultures.

The field of opportunities for African-Americans has only recently become relatively palatable and is by no means exemplary.

Maybe using "Every life matters" if you can't digest the idiomatic "Black Lives Matter" should be the norm for the US. I can't foresee the day when people stop fetishizing guns for their freedom affirming status.

As a.matter of course the racism was not stamped out with the magic wand of Civic Rights legislation and enforcement. The iniquity subsists and is engrained in the mentalscape of black experience. So many tactics meant to extend segregation have been uncovered that prove harm is done in the here and now. Granted, ghetto life has bred violence of blacks upon blacks, but this is because repeated assault on black self esteem promoted a self destructive pattern that is paroxystic in Chicago, Detroit, New Orleans.

Invoking a "Yes but, a certain demographic" doesn't cut it.

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by barney82

Most or just about all people on this forum range from middle class to upper-middle class. If you are middle class or higher in the USA, the higher rate of urban crime essentially doesn't affect you.

In the NYC area, I would argue that even relatively poor people have access to reasonably safe neighborhoods (most immigrant neighborhoods). To the point where if there is a higher murder rate in say Sunnyside Queens or Bayridge Brooklyn than in similar areas of Toronto or Stockholm, the chance of getting murdered is well well down the ranking of the various risks (medical, accident, etc) we all face throughout the world.

I, living my life in America, honestly do not worry about violent crime. This is anecdotal, but on my recent trips to Paris, Rome, Naples, and the UK, I actually felt at much greater risk of getting pickpocketed (well I did get pickpocketed) or beat up than I feel in NYC. Anything more than getting beat up is not something I felt worried about either here or there.

Your comment doesn't mention anything in regards to the fact that American cities large and small do have sections that your average 'middle class' local resident wouldn't even think of driving through, let alone walking through.
Now, by saying that if you are middle class and up, then crime doesn't affect you in the US, you are exactly re-affirming what I said above. That might be the norm for cities in less developed/less rich parts of the world (like Latin America), but it shouldn't for a first world country.

In the end, that always weighs heavily against US cities in these types of rakings.

[barney82]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

Your comment doesn't mention anything in regards to the fact that American cities large and small do have sections that your average 'middle class' local resident wouldn't even think of driving through, let alone walking through.
Now, by saying that if you are middle class and up, then crime doesn't affect you in the US, you are exactly re-affirming what I said above. That might be the norm for a cities in less developed parts of the world, but it shouldn't for a first world country.

Maybe I just don't live in the right American city. I don't know what part of NYC I can't drive through safely.

At least in NYC, even the poor immigrant neighborhoods are largely safe.

And even in metro Detroit, we're not talking about some sort of tiny elite living in safety, we're talking about the great majority of the population.

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by montréaliste

Invoking a "Yes but, a certain demographic" doesn't cut it.

Agreed.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

Your comment doesn't mention anything in regards to the fact that American cities large and small do have sections that your average 'middle class' local resident wouldn't even think of driving through, let alone walking through.
Now, by saying that if you are middle class and up, then crime doesn't affect you in the US, you are exactly re-affirming what I said above. That might be the norm for cities in less developed/less rich parts of the world (like Latin America), but it shouldn't for a first world country.

In the end, that always weighs heavily against US cities in these types of rakings.

Large west coast cities like Seattle, Portland, Denver, sf, San Diego do not have areas where middle class residents would feel unsafe walking or driving through, to any significant degree.

[pdxtex]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

You two guys (crawford and denizen) are trying to cover the Sun with one finger - you might delude yourselves, but the Sun shines bright and clear for everyone else.

The fact is that American cities have large sections (whether it is in what you call the 'inner city' or the suburbs) where crime is very high. If it happens in specially the guettos (black or otherwise), it shows that there is (and has been for its entire history) a huge schism in American society, which has never occurred in other first world nations.

I lived both in South Florida and the Midwest for many years, and there were many areas you had to be crazy to go through in a car, let alone by foot! - remember the news when tourists exiting the Dolphin Expressway at the wrong exit, landed them in Liberty City and got shot at in a robbery attempt? or when trying to go out at night to the bars in Coconut Grove, going through the black ghetto and the same thing happened?

I have WALKED extensively throughout downtown Toronto even very late at night (3:00a) on weekends and I have never felt intimidated, not even once.
That is what it means to live in a safe city.

Stop putting a spin on it - you are not fooling anyone who's spent significant time in the US.

As I mentioned earlier in a previous post, in regards to crime and safety, American cities are more on par with Latin American cities, where the wealthy live in their bubbles, and are insulated from the 'bad hombres' as your president likes to say.

By the way, The Economist ran a story about the world's most violent cities a few weeks ago. Unsurprisingly, for a First World country, the US doesn't fair very well:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-3

gun violence in the united states represents the ultimate in white privilege, the decision to take you own life. 77% of all gun deaths for white americans are suicides while 80 percent of gun deaths for black americans are homicides. that stat is alarming but true. so ones' relative safety in our country is absolutely correlated with race. but across the board, gun violence has been decline for 25 years, with the exception of a recent uptick in inner city murder rate within the last year and a half.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by McBane

I wouldn't put any US cities on the list unless you only counted the wealthy city centers or included the city and surrounding suburbs. Center City Philadelphia is a great place to live (if you can afford it); but that doesn't change the fact that, in aggregate, the city of Philadelphia is plagued by high crime, poor schools, segregation, blight/filth, corruption, and crumbling infrastructure. Most US cities suffer from the same ills and so it doesn't surprise me that no US cities made the list. Even NYC, which is always an anomaly as far as US cities go, has huge pockets of poverty and while it's still the safest big city in the country, still has much more crime than cities that did make the top 20.

new yorks murder rate is only slightly higher than torontos and lower than that of Edmonton! Every world city has pockets of poverty, I don't know why single out NYC here.

Regarding philly you need to consider the urban area which is a lot more diverse income wise and with a more substantial middle class than the city itself. . Philly indeed has a super gentrified center, and has a large working class population in s philly and a high crime underclass population in n philly. Offsetting this you have tons of dense, urban, and geographically adjacent middle class and high income suburbs like media, main line, kop along with manayunk, parts of w philly and northeast philly.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by PFloyd

You two guys (crawford and denizen) are trying to cover the Sun with one finger - you might delude yourselves, but the Sun shines bright and clear for everyone else.

The fact is that American cities have large sections (whether it is in what you call the 'inner city' or the suburbs) where crime is very high. If it happens in specially the guettos (black or otherwise), it shows that there is (and has been for its entire history) a huge schism in American society, which has never occurred in other first world nations.

I lived both in South Florida and the Midwest for many years, and there were many areas you had to be crazy to go through in a car, let alone by foot! - remember the news when tourists exiting the Dolphin Expressway at the wrong exit, landed them in Liberty City and got shot at in a robbery attempt? or when trying to go out at night to the bars in Coconut Grove, going through the black ghetto and the same thing happened?

I have WALKED extensively throughout downtown Toronto even very late at night (3:00a) on weekends and I have never felt intimidated, not even once.
That is what it means to live in a safe city.

Stop putting a spin on it - you are not fooling anyone who's spent significant time in the US.

As I mentioned earlier in a previous post, in regards to crime and safety, American cities are more on par with Latin American cities, where the wealthy live in their bubbles, and are insulated from the 'bad hombres' as your president likes to say.

By the way, The Economist ran a story about the world's most violent cities a few weeks ago. Unsurprisingly, for a First World country, the US doesn't fair very well:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-3

Yep, this is exactly why cities will never solve these problems on their own nor is it any single city's responsibility, there are seriously ingrained issues both cultural and political that this country needs to address but nothing really changes. In the end this is exactly what the American people in power wanted, they chose division and oppression and most still do. Canada took a different path.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by barney82

And even in metro Detroit, we're not talking about some sort of tiny elite living in safety, we're talking about the great majority of the population.

This is ridiculous, metro Detroit is extremely segregated, of course the suburbs with white middle class and even lower class aren't any more dangerous than the safest city in Europe, that is totally beside the point. The difference is that ghetto areas don't exist in other first world countries anywhere near the extent that they exist in America.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Large west coast cities like Seattle, Portland, Denver, sf, San Diego do not have areas where middle class residents would feel unsafe walking or driving through, to any significant degree.

First of all that's false in the regard of San Francisco, second of all that's because they're young and significantly mono-cultured cities, watch how quickly shit falls apart with any considerable black migration.

[PFloyd]

Originally Posted by The North One

This is ridiculous, metro Detroit is extremely segregated, of course the suburbs with white middle class and even lower class aren't any more dangerous than the safest city in Europe, that is totally beside the point. The difference is that ghetto areas don't exist in other first world countries anywhere near the extent that they exist in America.

Agreed