James Howard Kunstler's argument against skyscrapers

[Doady]

I think Kunstler makes a good point. If you look at Montreal, i is more based on low-rise/mid-rise walk-up apartment complexes compared to Toronto, which is more high-rises. And Montreal happens to be more beautiful, more walkable, more dense, more urban, and has better transit transit ridership than Toronto. Basically it is a better city in every possible way.

[mhays]

Sure 10 floors is a good guideline for today's world, but in a no/low-energy world, doing 20 floors or more wouldn't be that difficult compared to a long travel distance. The main challenges seem to be that an injury would make coming/going nearly impossible, and moving furniture would be really hard. Then again, in that world, lots of labor would be available for hire.

[Docere]

I take it anti-skyscraper arguments aren't very popular on a site called "skyscraperpage.com".

[mrsmartman]

Originally Posted by 10023

As a "built form" I'm inclined to agree. But European cities can and do have skyscrapers. The key is avoiding curb cuts or "tower in a park" built forms.

Are there any differences between "towers in the park" and condos?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mrsmartman

Are there any differences between "towers in the park" and condos?

A "tower in the park" is an architectural/land use style.

A condo is a form of ownership and could assume any architectural style.

[mrsmartman]

Originally Posted by Crawford

A "tower in the park" is an architectural/land use style.

A condo is a form of ownership and could assume any architectural style.

"Towers in the park" offer the best living environment for a large number of people at a reasonable cost. The concept should be promoted.

[mhays]

There's no reason for it to be cheaper than denser formats. And the "park" component tends to be windswept hell between the street and the building. So no.

[ChargerCarl]

I think he's just trolling.

[mrsmartman]

The concept only works in NYC but not other American cities...

[mhays]

Riiight...it doesn't work in other cities where it's often done anyway.

[ChargerCarl]

Towers in the park shouldn't be promoted, but if thats what people demand then developers should be allowed to provide it.

As far as I know though it's not a housing type thats in high demand. They mostly seem to be built by the government both at home and abroad.

[mrsmartman]

Why do you think "towers in the park" is not a good solution to the slum problem? What is your suggestion for the people with their residence located in slum?

[RST500]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

Towers in the park shouldn't be promoted, but if thats what people demand then developers should be allowed to provide it.

As far as I know though it's not a housing type thats in high demand. They mostly seem to be built by the government both at home and abroad.

Are you referring to Le Cubusier's vision? I like the idea but some of those developments ended up becoming car oriented. Think Brasilia.

[memph]

Originally Posted by mrsmartman

Why do you think "towers in the park" is not a good solution to the slum problem? What is your suggestion for the people with their residence located in slum?

What's the problem with slums?

Not a rhetorical question, but I'm just wondering what you view as the main problems that need to be addressed.

[memph]

Originally Posted by mhays

There's no reason for it to be cheaper than denser formats. And the "park" component tends to be windswept hell between the street and the building. So no.

I think it's not necessarily all bad, but it doesn't help that they were designed to be auto-oriented and often built in auto-oriented areas. Or just poorly designed in general.

The idea was to look good on a maquette, which meant looking uncluttered, orderly and nicely spaced out with each building easily distinguishable from the other (as in separate, rather than a sea of buildings squished together). However, that means nothing for whether or not it will be a good place to be in real life. For that you need to pay attention to the public realm, to details that won't be visible on a 1:1000 scale model.

On the 1:1000 scale model you don't realize just how big the buildings and spaces between them, and surface parking lots are. And if they're big in reality, that can be pretty dull. Also things like benches, flower beds, garbage dumpsters... aren't really going to register on the scale model. You also don't see people and how they're going to use the spaces on those sorts of models.

For example, the St James Town tower-in-the-park development. Despite the problems that area is facing, many of the "park" components are pretty well used. Other "park" components within that community, not so much, and are basically just empty space to separate the buildings. There's also issues like certain parts of the public realm there being poorly kept, whole bunches of dumpsters just sitting in plain sight, and ugly surface parking which I believe is mostly visitor parking (with resident parking underground).

The solution should be to reduce the useless space (surface parking and useless "greenspace"), by making some of it more attractive public places that are designed to have a purpose and actually be utilized in some way as public spaces, and developing the rest (at whatever density, doesn't necessarily have to be highrise).

[mrsmartman]

Slum should be removed for severe violation of the building code.

Tenement slums originally occupied the area upon which Knickerbocker Village stands. Other buildings that once stood here were handsome and fashionable houses, subdivided into smaller units to accommodate the neighborhood’s growing low-income population. 650 mostly-Italian families paid an average of $5 per room.The area became known as “Lung Block” due to its high number of reported tuberculosis cases; most apartments had few windows and inadequate ventilation. In addition to the crowded housing stock, Lung Block also had eight barrooms and five brothel houses and was considered just as notorious as nearby Five Points...

Lung Block, 1933. The street to the right of the island of tenements is Monroe Street. Hamilton Street, now gone, is to the left of the island. From New York Times photo archives.



Map with letters indicating reported cases of TB on Lung Block. a represents a reported case in 1894; b is a case from 1895, etc. Shaded areas are undeveloped land.

Read more: https://nyhistorywalks.wordpress.com...ocker-village/

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by memph

What's the problem with slums?

Not a rhetorical question, but I'm just wondering what you view as the main problems that need to be addressed.

Yeah, one man's slum is another man's affordable housing.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mrsmartman

Lung Block, 1933. The street to the right of the island of tenements is Monroe Street. Hamilton Street, now gone, is to the left of the island. From New York Times photo archives.

Just to be clear, while, yes, much of this street scene was a victim of slum clearance, it was not replaced by typical tower in the park urban renewal.

It was replaced by Knickerbocker Village, which is a giant apartment complex built during the Great Depression. It predates the tower in park era. Everything on the right on the pic, in front of the church, was replaced by this complex:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7114...8i6656!6m1!1e1

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Everything on the right on the pic, in front of the church, was replaced by this complex:

You mean everything on the left and in the center, right?

I'm no expert, but from what I can see, this pic was taken looking west, and the north side of Monroe St (ending at the corner of Catherine St with the visible twin cupolas of that church), which is on the right side of the pic, seems intact. Knickerbocker Village occupies the entire rectangle delimited by Catherine/Monroe/Market/Cherry, i.e. the area which this Hamilton St (the curved one left of center in the pic) used to cut in two.

[lio45]

Out of curiosity, what's the building that's at the left of the pic, closest to the photographer?