Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[Acajack]

So while I might agree that a Kettle Island bridge is not high at the top of the list of the City of Ottawa's own transportation priorities, if I am that same City of Ottawa and the feds want to drop a billion dollars (sourced from Canadians across the country) to build a bridge and approaches through fields and woods, hundreds of metres from any existing neighbourhoods, and take heavy trucks off King Edward and the heart of downtown... where do I sign?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You are probably right but I say this with no bitterness at all but why would Ontario and Ottawa pay for something that helps lose tax revenues to Gatineau Quebec? I agree we should work together and act as a region more but this is literally helping the tax base bleed away. The idea that Ottawa is better at curbing sprawl is dubious but an east end bridge will open huge swaths of land for suburban sprawl. I don't think does anything but displace equally idiotic development like Tewin but still. If it was free from the feds I agree no reason to give in to Manor Park NIMBYs but its very low on the list of Ontario and Ottawa transport priorities.

Given that it is an interprovincial bridge, I would hope that it would be primarily funded by the federal government. Having said that, I think you are inflating its value to Quebec residents and deflating its value to Ontario residents. An eastern bridge would be primarily of benefit for those who are going neither to or from downtown Ottawa or Hull, but need to cross the river. As a consequence of the reduced traffic, it would also be of benefit to those who live near the KERN corridor.

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So while I might agree that a Kettle Island bridge is not high at the top of the list of the City of Ottawa's own transportation priorities, if I am that same City of Ottawa and the feds want to drop a billion dollars (sourced from Canadians across the country) to build a bridge and approaches through fields and woods, hundreds of metres from any existing neighbourhoods, and take heavy trucks off King Edward and the heart of downtown... where do I sign?

Why do we have to accept such a shitty status quo when there is an obvious (and relatively cheap) solution? We are lucky to not have a highway that cuts right through our downtown but it's no use if the trucks are just going to clog up our central streets.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So while I might agree that a Kettle Island bridge is not high at the top of the list of the City of Ottawa's own transportation priorities, if I am that same City of Ottawa and the feds want to drop a billion dollars (sourced from Canadians across the country) to build a bridge and approaches through fields and woods, hundreds of metres from any existing neighbourhoods, and take heavy trucks off King Edward and the heart of downtown... where do I sign?

Curiously, the bridge crossing corridor you've just described here most closely approximates the Lower Duck Island or McLaurin Bay proposals, not Kettle Island.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Curiously, the bridge crossing corridor you've just described here most closely approximates the Lower Duck Island or McLaurin Bay proposals, not Kettle Island.

It most definitely describes the Kettle Island-Aviation corridor too, at least on the Ottawa side.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even Gatineau hasn't really been rah-rah-rah about it. At least not the outgoing mayor and council. On the Gatineau side it's mostly one MP who's been driving this. Most of the other elected officials here might be supportive but they certainly don't talk it up much. The one mayoral candidate who talked it up quite a bit got 15% of the vote. And even he didn't make it his bread and butter issue.

I've read conflicting reports on the level of enthusiasm in Gatineau.

France Bélisle swept pretty much all of Gatineau Sector and this RadCan report suggests that her unflinching support for the bridge combined with Action Gatineau's "wait and see" approach might have made the difference there. Relevant section

L’enjeu du transport

Le professeur souligne que le manque d’engagement ferme d’Action Gatineau envers le projet d’un sixième pont dans l’est de la ville pourrait avoir eu un effet sur sa performance dans ces districts.

La cheffe Maude Marquis-Bissonnette s’était positionnée de façon prudente, souhaitant attendre les résultats d’études avant d’appuyer le projet.

France Bélisle s’était dit, quant à elle, favorable au projet tel que présenté par le gouvernement fédéral.

Personally, I quite liked Maude Marquis-Bissonnette and Action Gatineau and Maude was leading in the polls up until a short while before the election. But I think she miscalculated and lost a good chunk of support in Gatineau Sector by her lukewarm support for the bridge. I'd argue the evidence suggests the people of Gatineau are enthusiastic about a sixth bridge overall. Especially in Gatineau Sector.

[Acajack]

I live in the Gatineau (Gatineau) sector and I don't know anyone for whom it was their "ballot" question. The candidates who came to knock on my door (I actually met some face to face for the first time in over 20 years) asked me about it and said that it wasn't on most people's radar.

I do think most people in Gatineau (east or west) are in favour of it, but most of that support is quite passive.

[phil235]

If the case for a bridge needed to be more compelling, a pedestrian was hit by a truck on Rideau this morning:

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/pedestrian...reet-1.5666520

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It most definitely describes the Kettle Island-Aviation corridor too, at least on the Ottawa side.

I beg to differ. It most definitely doesn't describe the Ottawa side of the Kettle Island-Aviation corridor.

...to build a bridge and approaches through fields and woods, hundreds of metres from any existing neighbourhoods...

A quick look at Google Maps shows that the vast majority of the residential properties that line the sides of the Aviation Parkway are well within 200m of that route. And the only real field near this corridor is the RCMP horse pasture.

The corridor from Hwy 174 to the Ottawa River, through the NCC fields near Green's Creek, on the other hand, is almost 1km from the nearest homes at the western edge of Orleans.

Hence my confusion about your hyperbole.

[JM1]

I think we have seen everything we need to. A Kettle Island Bridge will:

1. Not solve then KERWYN truck issue.
2. Will be expensive
3. Will induce traffic by encouraging more commutes from the fast growing Gatineau East to employment hubs in Ottawa
4. Will ruin and divide additional neighbourhoods on both sides of the river

The solution to KERWYN is a tunnel. Not another bridge.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

I beg to differ. It most definitely doesn't describe the Ottawa side of the Kettle Island-Aviation corridor.



A quick look at Google Maps shows that the vast majority of the residential properties that line the sides of the Aviation Parkway are well within 200m of that route. And the only real field near this corridor is the RCMP horse pasture.

The corridor from Hwy 174 to the Ottawa River, through the NCC fields near Green's Creek, on the other hand, is almost 1km from the nearest homes at the western edge of Orleans.

Hence my confusion about your hyperbole.

At its narrowest the aviation distance between houses is about 150m, so no houses would need to be within about 70m of the highway. This compares to basically zero metres on the Interprovincial Truckway and about 40m in the Glebe.

In most places it is much wider than that. Near Olgilve it is about 500m.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

I beg to differ. It most definitely doesn't describe the Ottawa side of the Kettle Island-Aviation corridor.



A quick look at Google Maps shows that the vast majority of the residential properties that line the sides of the Aviation Parkway are well within 200m of that route. And the only real field near this corridor is the RCMP horse pasture.

The corridor from Hwy 174 to the Ottawa River, through the NCC fields near Green's Creek, on the other hand, is almost 1km from the nearest homes at the western edge of Orleans.

Hence my confusion about your hyperbole.

Good post!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by JM1

I think we have seen everything we need to. A Kettle Island Bridge will:

1. Not solve then KERWYN truck issue.
2. Will be expensive
3. Will induce traffic by encouraging more commutes from the fast growing Gatineau East to employment hubs in Ottawa
4. Will ruin and divide additional neighbourhoods on both sides of the river

The solution to KERWYN is a tunnel. Not another bridge.

I disagree.

1. The claim that it won't solve then KERWYN truck issue was based on the assumption that they would maintain KERWYN as the primary truck route and the new bridge would only be used as an alternate for those who really wanted to use it. The tunnel also won't be 100% effective, since trucks carrying dangerous goods won't be allowed to use it, forcing them to continue to be transported through the streets of downtown Ottawa.
2. It will be expensive but so will the tunnel. The difference is the tunnel would be the primary responsibility of the city. The province and feds would likely each contribute 1/3 of the budgeted cost, but the city would be responsible for all cost overruns and all maintenance. The bridge would be the primary responsibility of the federal government, and they would cover the majority of cost and maintenance.
3. The bridge likely will induce some demand, but it will also significantly reduce the number of vehicle kilometers driven by not routing those already traveling from eastern Ottawa to eastern Gatineau via downtown.
4. It will not ruin and divide additional neighbourhoods on either side of the river. In Ottawa, the Aviation parkway already acts as a divider, so nothing will change. In Gatineau, it will likely travel beside or through an industrial park and/or a golf club (see map below).

The bridge is not a perfect solution, but neither is a tunnel.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

roger1818, with your nice graph skills, how would you suggest connecting aviation parkway to the 417 to provide access from the West and to the West?

Here is one option (it gives access to and from every direction). To make it easier for me, I kept almost all of the existing roadways in the same location (I did reroute the cloverleaf). It might be better though to start from scratch with a whole new design.

I used different colours to highlight which roadway is above which (red and green are new and the other colours are existing). I haven't done any calculations to see if the grades are reasonable and I am sure there are other issues with the design.

[RuralCitizen]

Yeah, it is very difficult to predict.
Simply looking at the St-Laurent off-ramp from the 174 + the Cyrville LRT station + the Cyrville bridge makes it quite complicated to add a Aviation to 417 West on-ramp.

[Kelnoz]

Originally Posted by roger1818

4. It will not ruin and divide additional neighbourhoods on either side of the river. In Ottawa, the Aviation parkway already acts as a divider, so nothing will change. In Gatineau, it will likely travel beside or through an industrial park and/or a golf club (see map below).

Not saying the Kettle island bridge is a bad solution, but your map really obscures the fact that trucks using the bridge would be heading to or from highway 50 on Montée Paiement. They won't disappear when they hit Maloney, all that new traffic will be heading through Paiement and dividing both sides of the road. Especially as La Cité becomes a new centre for Gatineau, having all that traffic right to its East wouldn't be ideal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kelnoz

Not saying the Kettle island bridge is a bad solution, but your map really obscures the fact that trucks using the bridge would be heading to or from highway 50 on Montée Paiement. They won't disappear when they hit Maloney, all that new traffic will be heading through Paiement and dividing both sides of the road. Especially as La Cité becomes a new centre for Gatineau, having all that traffic right to its East wouldn't be ideal.

What percentage of the truck traffic would be going to the A50? It is a significant detour for most destinations. I suspect most would use the 148, which is on the northern edge of the zone in my map. The small percentage that do need to go to the A50 could use Mnt Paiement, which is already designed as a 4 lane highway.

[Kelnoz]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What percentage of the truck traffic would be going to the A50? It is a significant detour for most destinations. I suspect most would use the 148, which is on the northern edge of the zone in my map. The small percentage that do need to go to the A50 could use Mnt Paiement, which is already designed as a 4 lane highway.

Isn't the new crossing supposed to be the main highway 50 - highway 417 link? The quantity of trucks on the 50 is impressive, and most of them I assume are going to Ottawa. Of course Montée Paiement is gonna be a lot busier, it's literally part of the corridor outlined by the NCC. You're right that it is already a large boulevard, but it's not like it's a controlled access highway, it has plenty of business and home entrances on it. It's more similar to King Edwards than Aviation Parkway.

[Acajack]

There would be a pretty decent percentage of trucks that would use Montée Paiement all the way to the A-50 from the Kettle Island Bridge.

Gatineau knows this and accepts this.

For better or for worse, there has been little discussion or even concern in Gatineau about neighbourhood environmental impacts along Montée Paiement.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There would be a pretty decent percentage of trucks that would use Montée Paiement all the way to the A-50 from the Kettle Island Bridge.

Gatineau knows this and accepts this.

For better or for worse, there has been little discussion or even concern in Gatineau about neighbourhood environmental impacts along Montée Paiement.

It's interesting. I would think the impact would be bigger. Aviation is already a highway light but that lowest section of Paiement must be pretty quiet now.

I guess the big improvement in transport is a bit of a carrot. It's also less of an entrenched community than Manor Park.