LRT Stage 3

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

When the Confederation Line reaches capacity, and it will happen within 30 years or so with the TOD planned around the stations, the City will have no choice but to look into building a second rapid transit line, and Montreal Road in the east is the only option. Bonus is that it can be extended as the Cumberland Transitway, serving the precious suburbs.

Right. 30 years is beyond that TMP. But that point, hopefully all three levels of government are in a better fiscal position and can push the next burst of expansion....

And hopefully, Montreal-Rideau will have had enough development that it's actually a reasonable dense corridor. Right now, even minor suburban avenues like Markham Rd in Scarborough or Lawrence across Toronto have more traffic, residents and transit users.

Would be interesting to see what's done to connect or interline a Rideau-Montreal subway if the Confederation Line is maxed out. They build a second set of tunnels underneath?

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In the west, Carling would be the only logical route, but linking it to the Montreal Road subway would be tough.

Not so much technically challenging, as technically expensive. They could just tunnel across downtown to connect. Would be insanely expensive.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That brings us to the Bank Street subway. They will be able to increase the capacity ever so slightly with minor frequency increases to Trillium through piece-meal double tracking, but it won't be long before a full shut-down for a proper double track upgrade is no longer feasible, That's when the Bank Street subway comes in (sometime in the next 30-40 years).

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The Bank line can be surface/elevated south of Billings to South Keys or the Airport (giving all of Trillium capacity to Riverside South), Carling can be surface/elevated west of Trillium to Kanata North and Montreal can be surface/elevated east of St-Laurent all the way to Millennium. This massive project would need to be phased in as needed, just like the current Confederation/Trillium project, over 20-30 years starting around 2048.

They'll never build a Bank St. subway to relieve the Trillium Line. Ridership can be redirected to Confederation Line and Southeast Transitway during construction. It's not like we built a whole parallel subway just to relieve the Transitway, in Stage 1. We shut down the eastern Transitway. Nobody will have any qualms shutting down the Trillium Line with less ridership and more alternatives for diversion. And if the Trillium Line is twinned and electrified, all through ridership is diverted and any transit usage on that street is entirely local. Hard to make a case for a subway then.

If anything, I'd argue there's a substantially better case to build a subway under Bronson and to abandon the northern half of the Trillium Line.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Back to Carling, it could be a spur branch of the Montreal-Rideau-Bank subway.

Never understood why people would want to connect a hypothetical Rideau-Montreal subway with a Bank subway. It'd make far more sense for a Rideau-Montreal subway to be interlined with the Confederation Line and becoming the Kanata Branch. So Kanata to Trim via downtown. And then the Barrhaven to Cumberland (via downtown) line becomes the other LRT going through the DOTT.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never understood why people would want to connect a hypothetical Rideau-Montreal subway with a Bank subway. It'd make far more sense for a Rideau-Montreal subway to be interlined with the Confederation Line and becoming the Kanata Branch. So Kanata to Trim via downtown. And then the Barrhaven to Cumberland (via downtown) line becomes the other LRT going through the DOTT.

I agree, it has always made more sense to me to have a Montreal-Cumberland LRT be a branch of the Confederation Line. Lumping it with a Bank Street Subway makes the already improbable even more unlikely to happen.

[Thehumanperson]

Lumping it with the Bank St to me only increases desirability (LRT stage 4/5/6?)

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Right. 30 years is beyond that TMP. But that point, hopefully all three levels of government are in a better fiscal position and can push the next burst of expansion....

Or we could adopt tax increment financing and use it for the purpose of building actual urban transit in actual urban areas, instead of draining the tax base of the core and inner cities to build economically dubious vanity transit panders to low-density auto-dependent suburbs.

There is no particular reason why transit projects should be permanently dependent on the twin financial bases of the city's own tax and borrowing capacity, and whatever largesse the "senior" orders of government are willing and able to dole out based on the political and economic circumstances of any particular half-decade political planning window.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I agree, it has always made more sense to me to have a Montreal-Cumberland LRT be a branch of the Confederation Line. Lumping it with a Bank Street Subway makes the already improbable even more unlikely to happen.

How so?

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

I feel this would be a good long-term solution to mass public transit within the greenbelt. In black is everything that is currently planned or built, red is my idea of what a Bank St. and St. Laurent Blvd. "subway loop" line would look like, and green is my urban cross-town Carling streetcar/Montreal Rd. subway line.

I feel that this would bring mass transit to the bulk of Ottawa's urban core, could easily cover future growth, connects most areas, connects to existing (or what will be existing) mass transit, and brings mass transit to areas that will definitely need it and will use it.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

When the Confederation Line reaches capacity, and it will happen within 30 years or so with the TOD planned around the stations, the City will have no choice but to look into building a second rapid transit line, and Montreal Road in the east is the only option. Bonus is that it can be extended as the Cumberland Transitway, serving the precious suburbs.

In the west, Carling would be the only logical route, but linking it to the Montreal Road subway would be tough.

This more like Stage 4+ but if I were to think of a Line 3 it would be something like this which I humorously call the Hospital Line:



It could initially travel from Algonquin, along Baseline to the Clyde-Merivale area (which has lots of TOD potential); then diagonally up Merivale to Carling (the western frontage of the Experimental Farm could be rezoned for massive TOD); past the Mental Health Centre to the New Civic Hospital; tunnel under the Glebe and Ottawa East (Fifth Ave/Clegg axis) with stations to serve Bank and Lansdowne; hook up with the C-line and T-way at Hurdman; then continue down Station Blvd to the General Hospital.

Western extension would take it out to the Queensway Carleton Hospital then to more TOD potential at Bellwoods and up towards the DND campus.

Eastern extension would go mostly elevated beside Browning to the Science and Tech Museum; dip under the 417 where the railway is; turn up the hydro corridor through Pineview to Blair; jog up beside Bathgate past CSEC and CSIS; go through La Cité campus to Den Haag; up to Montfort Hospital and into the Rockcliffe Base development; then to the Aviation Museum. If the Kettle island bridge is built, it could have a transit component to bring the line to meet up with the Rapibus corridor.

This would connect all the hospitals in the city except Riverside (which is linked via the T-way), two colleges, Lansdowne, two related museums, three federal employment nodes, and tons of TOD.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Never understood why people would want to connect a hypothetical Rideau-Montreal subway with a Bank subway. It'd make far more sense for a Rideau-Montreal subway to be interlined with the Confederation Line and becoming the Kanata Branch. So Kanata to Trim via downtown. And then the Barrhaven to Cumberland (via downtown) line becomes the other LRT going through the DOTT.

I would approve of a split of the Confederation Line down Rideau-Montreal-Cumberland via La Cité and Blair.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

How so?

I think a Montreal LRT (subway) has a better business case than a Bank Street LRT (subway). Also because it seems that tunneling underneath the Rideau Canal and through the sandy soils around Sussex Drive is costly and risky - making the Montreal LRT an extension of the Confederation Line avoids having to do this again.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

I feel this would be a good long-term solution to mass public transit within the greenbelt. In black is everything that is currently planned or built, red is my idea of what a Bank St. and St. Laurent Blvd. "subway loop" line would look like, and green is my urban cross-town Carling streetcar/Montreal Rd. subway line.

I feel that this would bring mass transit to the bulk of Ottawa's urban core, could easily cover future growth, connects most areas, connects to existing (or what will be existing) mass transit, and brings mass transit to areas that will definitely need it and will use it.

Well its ambitious I'll say that.

[Mikeed]

I have a hard time believing we will exceed the 24,000 pdph capacity of the Confederation Line after the 150' extensions anytime soon.

Automatic train control and replacing some of the lines rolling stock with trains that are full length would also goose that capacity in ways we don't know.

Coupled with the continuation of decentralization we've been seeing and I don't think we'll ever need an expensive boondoggle like a bank street subway.

I would love to live in that world, but I'm of an opinion we're better looking at at holistic regional needs that foster growth that continues to make Ottawa one of the greatest & most livable cities in the world.

Regional rail, Crosstown BRT, Carling Tram/BRT all important keys to unlocking more of Ottawa with rapid transit.

Considering my perspective from someone who moved to Ottawa for school, all my peers spent considerable time living in the inner city belt of affordability that is off the Baseline-Heron-Walkley spine.

The Crosstown Transitway is the most important project outside the Otrain line 1 & 2.

The only way we'll see a Bank Street Subway imo is if it was somehow linked by tunnel with Lansdowne and the Carling LRT.

But I don't know what problem this is really solving since "old Ottawa" is a extremely walk able city- money should be put into better designing transit priority and "complete streets".

We really should have had the Confederation Line tunnel under Laurier to better capture walkups from Centretown but that ship has sailed.

[lrt's friend]

The only way we'll see a Bank Street Subway imo is if it was somehow linked by tunnel with Lansdowne and the Carling LRT.

I don't know how we realistically accomplish this connection.

If you want a cross-town connection from a Bank Street subway, that could more easily done via Billings Bridge (already a development node and with a long-term redevelopment plan) and Baseline Road.

I had already suggested that potentially a Bank Street subway could be branched south of Billings Bridge, one branch to Baseline Road, a second to the Airport and the third to Riverside South, leaving the Trillium Line as a connector between South Keys and Bayview. We then don't ever have to worry about fully double tracking the Trillium Line.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I don't know how we realistically accomplish this connection.

If you want a cross-town connection from a Bank Street subway, that could more easily done via Billings Bridge (already a development node and with a long-term redevelopment plan) and Baseline Road.

With a tunnel.

But again, this is why I think a Bank Street subway will never happen. It goes against the East/West geography of Ottawa and there isn't nearly enough development to support it.

The geography of trying to get a rail line from Baseline, to Billings Bridge and to Lansdowne is considerably more challenging and a rail line on Baseline will go against a lot of the benefit BRT brings as a mode. I.e Having routes share sections- for example it makes a lot more sense in the future to have the 111 start at Baseline and terminate at Hurdman rather then Carleton. As this connects this neighbourhood with Lines 1&2, 88 crosstown, Billings Bridge, Riverside Hospital and other important nodes.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I have a hard time believing we will exceed the 24,000 pdph capacity of the Confederation Line after the 150' extensions anytime soon.

Automatic train control and replacing some of the lines rolling stock with trains that are full length would also goose that capacity in ways we don't know.

........

Good Day.

Remember one point - the max platform length is 120 metres. It got cut back in Jimmy's last cost-cutting round at contract signing.
The 3 underground stations have been built to this, and no extension is possible without massive reconstruction (there is equipment at each end of each station).
So... any new trains have this limit of 120 meters max between the doors at train-ends.
The current Spirits are extendable with another 11 metre module in each LRV to a two-vehicle train length of 118 metres nose-to-nose.

EnJoy.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

But I don't know what problem this is really solving since "old Ottawa" is a extremely walk able city- money should be put into better designing transit priority and "complete streets".

Ottawa's concept of "complete streets" is almost entirely antithetical to the concept of transit priority. (Cf. Elgin Street reconstruction, the Montreal Road bait-and-switch, and the total fustercluck that is the transit showcase called Queen).

You can have transit priority.

You can have an Ottawa-conceived "complete street".

Pick one.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

Remember one point - the max platform length is 120 metres. It got cut back in Jimmy's last cost-cutting round at contract signing.
The 3 underground stations have been built to this, and no extension is possible without massive reconstruction (there is equipment at each end of each station).
So... any new trains have this limit of 120 meters max between the doors at train-ends.
The current Spirits are extendable with another 11 metre module in each LRV to a two-vehicle train length of 118 metres nose-to-nose.

EnJoy.

We could have longer trains, up to 130 meters, spilling over the platforms roughly 5 meters each side. Though they have further reduced most platform lengths of Stage 2 to 90 meters expandable to 100 meters, they seem to have left room for the full 120 meters for stations in tighter spots (like Cleary and New Orchard).

The other question is, can the stations handle the volume. I'm particularly concerned for Lyon and Parliament's narrow platforms and single (though Parliament has at least one double) escalators. Another issue with Parliament is that it only has two elevators from the surface, and these are outside. If they are able to add a few more entrances, then that concern could be alleviated.

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

We could have longer trains, up to 130 meters, spilling over the platforms roughly 5 meters each side. Though they have further reduced most platform lengths of Stage 2 to 90 meters expandable to 100 meters, they seem to have left room for the full 120 meters for stations in tighter spots (like Cleary and New Orchard).

Good Day.
Agreed. At the shorter platforms, this is already the case to a greater or lesser degree. Which is why I phrased the limitation as 120 metres between doors at trains-ends.

The other question is, can the stations handle the volume. I'm particularly concerned for Lyon and Parliament's narrow platforms and single (though Parliament has at least one double) escalators. Another issue with Parliament is that it only has two elevators from the surface, and these are outside. If they are able to add a few more entrances, then that concern could be alleviated.

This ! Big Time ! Despite others' assurances, this still worries me !

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

How so?

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

I think a Montreal LRT (subway) has a better business case than a Bank Street LRT (subway). Also because it seems that tunneling underneath the Rideau Canal and through the sandy soils around Sussex Drive is costly and risky - making the Montreal LRT an extension of the Confederation Line avoids having to do this again.

This. Would also add building a curve to interline below downtown Ottawa and the existing Confederation Line would be quite the challenge and expense.

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I have a hard time believing we will exceed the 24,000 pdph capacity of the Confederation Line after the 150' extensions anytime soon.

People have some wild ideas about ridership here. Particularly with growth.

For context, the Yonge Line in Toronto has a design capacity of 28 000 pphpd and current peak ridership is at > 31 000 pphpd (hence their push for the DRL).

Hitting 24 000 pphpd within 30 years from ~11 000 pphpd would be something.

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Automatic train control and replacing some of the lines rolling stock with trains that are full length would also goose that capacity in ways we don't know.

Yep. Platform screen doors and full ATC could take that capacity limit higher.

Originally Posted by Mikeed

Coupled with the continuation of decentralization we've been seeing and I don't think we'll ever need an expensive boondoggle like a bank street subway.

I would love to live in that world, but I'm of an opinion we're better looking at at holistic regional needs that foster growth that continues to make Ottawa one of the greatest & most livable cities in the world.

Regional rail, Crosstown BRT, Carling Tram/BRT all important keys to unlocking more of Ottawa with rapid transit.

This forum has an intense focus on getting downtown. To me that only comes from folks who use transit to commute. You can't have a great city and a great transit system without making more of the city accessible by rapid transit. The entire southern half of the area inside the Greenbelt will still suck, even after building the Baseline-Heron-Walkley BRT. There's also holes like Montreal. Addressing these would all be higher on my list than just moving people faster along Bank.

Originally Posted by Mikeed

We really should have had the Confederation Line tunnel under Laurier to better capture walkups from Centretown but that ship has sailed.

A decade ago, I attended the public information sessions and complained about exactly this. There's a huge chunk of downtown north of the highway that is still way too far from the Confederation Line. And that entirely Parliamentary precinct to the north is hardly some huge trip generator (most tourist come in on coach buses). Oh well. C'est la vie.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

A decade ago, I attended the public information sessions and complained about exactly this. There's a huge chunk of downtown north of the highway that is still way too far from the Confederation Line. And that entirely Parliamentary precinct to the north is hardly some huge trip generator (most tourist come in on coach buses). Oh well. C'est la vie.

I argued for Laurier back in the day, too. Oh well.

The Parliamentary precinct is actually a pretty big generator of work trips (by whatever mode); on a sitting day there's about 3,000 people working in the various Hill buildings, though that's now a bit more dispersed with the shuttling around by the Centre Block dispersal. (Probably a thousand fewer during non-sitting periods.)

[lrt's friend]

During early planning of the Confederation Line they were to rough in a connection for a future Montreal Road line. Did that get eliminated during the cost cutting process? I believe so, but is there confirmation?

Regarding Bank-Montreal line, I also don't see a connection being realistic. A Bank Street line, if ever built, would end at Queen Street.

Regarding BRT on Heron and Walkley, as being more important than on Bank Street, knowing the area very well, I cannot fathom this comment. BRT on Baseline is very important, but as you get east of Bank, I don't see it. East of the Rideau River and south of the Confederation Line, the north-south routes are much more important transit connections. As we more forward with further development to the south, this is going to be emphasized even more.