Old money and nouveau riche districts

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Part of this perception may be due to the fact that Long Island is more "white ethnic" and Connecticut is perceived as WASPy. The old North Shore was quickly dwarfed by postwar housing, so now Long Island (Nassau County at least) as the suburban extension of Brooklyn/Queens.

Correct. The Long Island stereotype is more "ethnic", and indeed LI is much more ethnic, and working class in nature (often higher income but kind of earthy professions like skilled tradesman). But really the LI stereotype fits the South Shore only.

The North Shore of LI is basically the same as Coastal CT, except much more Jewish in some towns (and hillier, which would surprise people).

Originally Posted by Docere

Westchester was pretty developed early in the 20th century as a railroad suburb, and I associate more with Manhattan/Wall Street employment (thinking of popular culture from the 50s/60s - Dick Van Dyke show is set in New Rochelle, in Billy Wilder's The Apartment the executive lives in White Plains).

Yeah, Westchester is probably the archetypal railroad suburb county. And it's probably most closely associated with the professional crowd, especially back then. CT was kind of the sticks, still. Even today, when you factor in taxes, apples-to-apples Westchester likely is the most expensive suburban county.

Originally Posted by Docere

It's a bit more WASP than Long Island and bit less "white ethnic" but it also has older industrial suburbs like Yonkers and Mount Vernon too that are quite "urban" in character.

Yeah, that's the stereotype, I just think there isn't really a big difference between these areas, at least nowadays. (and you can throw in Jersey too). I mean, if you want a white ethnic suburb full of Italian and Irish Catholics, you can find it in Westchester (Eastchester) and if you want a WASP town full of bluebloods you can find it on Long Island (Cold Spring Harbor) and if you want a gritty town full of immigrants you can find it in CT (Stamford).

It's too mixed up nowadays, IMO. The NY area is highly variable from town to town, and you're never far from wealth or poverty.

[hammersklavier]

In Philadelphia --

Rittenhouse Square, Powelton Village, East Falls, (West) Mt. Airy, and Chestnut Hill are more "old money". Society Hill, Logan Square, University City (Squirrel Hill and Cedar Park), and Northern Liberties are much more "new money".

In the suburbs, the core Main Line is the oldest-of-the-old-money. Wynnefield, Overbrook Farms*, Cynwyd, Merion, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Rosemont, Villanova, Wayne, Paoli. By contrast, Gladwyne, Upper Merion, and the outer Main Line -- principally around Exton -- is more new money
______________
* Okay, these two are technically in the city. But they feel more like the Main Line.

[ColDayMan]

Cincinnati:
Old Money - Hyde Park, North Avondale, East Walnut Hills, Pleasant Ridge, Glendale, Wyoming, Indian Hill, Terrace Park, Amberley Village, Montgomery, Villa Hills
New Money - Loveland, Mason, West Chester, Mt. Adams, some suburbs in Kentucky

Columbus:
Old Money - Victorian Village, Bexley, Upper Arlington, Marble Cliff
New Money - Dublin, New Albany, Powell, and strangely, the German Village

Dayton:
Old Money - Oakwood, northern Kettering, certain neighborhoods in the city but they ain't old money anymore!
New Money - Springboro, Bellbrook, Beavercreek

[ue]

Edmonton feels kind of young to have true old money neighbourhoods like in the Eastern half of the continent. That being said, there are established wealthy neighbourhoods that have been wealthy for the past 80-100 years and certainly lack flash that newer wealthy areas do.

Old money:
Glenora
The Highlands
Windsor Park

In-between:
Crestwood
Belgravia
St. Albert

Nouveau riche:
Windermere
Cameron Heights
Laurier Heights
Rio Terrace
Riverbend
Westridge/Patricia Heights
Henderson Estates
Westbrook Estates
Grandview
Whitecroft (Sherwood Park)
Sconadale (Sherwood Park)
Loralind Estates (Sherwood Park)
Country Club Estates (Sherwood Park)
Broadmoor Estates (Sherwood Park)

A walk that I found really interesting in Montreal was the walk from Westmount to Hampstead. Quite the contrast in displays of wealth between the two.

[johnnypd]

Old money

[10023]

Originally Posted by johnnypd

Old money

^ The estates own the freehold but don't actually live there.

Except for some of the Cadogan estate, these are some of the most nouveau-riche parts of London. Belgravia, Mayfair and most of the Portman estate are quite Arab and/or Russian. The Crown estates in St James and Regent St are all office space, as is most of Marylebone (residential is mostly flats and not houses).

The old money in London, like most places, if it is concentrated anywhere, is a little bit off the beaten path in areas that have always been nice but haven't been taken over by new/foreign money. And actually the real old money in England have primary residences at their country estates, not in London at all.

[johnnypd]

Originally Posted by 10023

^ The estates own the freehold but don't actually live there.

Yes, of course. Interesting though to see how these aristocratic old money estates still own huge chunks of central London. Much of this dates back to when London expanded into the West End and these families happened to own the formerly arable land. At that time some of these people would've been considered 'new money' ie the Cadogans.

And to think that the Buckingham Palace isn't even listed on that map!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by ue

A walk that I found really interesting in Montreal was the walk from Westmount to Hampstead. Quite the contrast in displays of wealth between the two.

Westmount is an early 20th century suburb, Hampstead is mostly post-WWII. Hampstead is about 75% Jewish, though Westmount has a sizeable Jewish population as well (maybe 25%).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 10023

The old money in London, like most places, if it is concentrated anywhere, is a little bit off the beaten path in areas that have always been nice but haven't been taken over by new/foreign money. And actually the real old money in England have primary residences at their country estates, not in London at all.

That's a good point. Amagansett is more old money than East Hampton partly because it's slightly less "discovered". There are some enclaves like Tuxedo Park (little known WASP estate area) in Orange County, NY, and some of the more isolated North Shore areas of LI (Centre Island, Lattingtown) better preserve the old WASP feel because of relative isolation.

Or, in an urban context, Sutton Place and East End Avenue/Gracie Square are probably a tad WASPier than, say, Park Ave. or Fifth Ave. because they're a bit more out of the way and undiscovered.

[Ryanrule]

Originally Posted by 599GTO

Always amusing to realize how little actual cash many "old money" codgers or trust fund kids w/famous last names have.

They're generally financially unprivileged and live in dumpy co-operatives in mediocre neighborhoods like Yorkville or east of Lexington. They don't have the money to live at 420 Park or 15 Central Park West. I went to a Kennedy brat's apartment last month and it was a shitty rental that was no more than $5k per month lol.

Most elite people in the best buildings are new money and their offspring.

sounds like your taxes are too low

[Ryanrule]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Chicago's old money area is the Gold Coast.

cdn1.media.zp-cdn.com iStock_000023204082

The new money is spread out but can mostly be found throughout the Near North Side in all the shiny new condo towers. South Loop too.


c2.staticflickr.com/6/5004

i wonder how long till the old mansions are king are worth something again.

probably when the asians move east enough and the white people south enough to squeeze out the cha people.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That's a good point. Amagansett is more old money than East Hampton partly because it's slightly less "discovered". There are some enclaves like Tuxedo Park (little known WASP estate area) in Orange County, NY, and some of the more isolated North Shore areas of LI (Centre Island, Lattingtown) better preserve the old WASP feel because of relative isolation.

Or, in an urban context, Sutton Place and East End Avenue/Gracie Square are probably a tad WASPier than, say, Park Ave. or Fifth Ave. because they're a bit more out of the way and undiscovered.

Yep. Although the Hamptons aren't really the "country" in the English sense.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

In Philadelphia --

Rittenhouse Square, Powelton Village, East Falls, (West) Mt. Airy, and Chestnut Hill are more "old money". Society Hill, Logan Square, University City (Squirrel Hill and Cedar Park), and Northern Liberties are much more "new money".

In the suburbs, the core Main Line is the oldest-of-the-old-money. Wynnefield, Overbrook Farms*, Cynwyd, Merion, Ardmore, Bryn Mawr, Rosemont, Villanova, Wayne, Paoli. By contrast, Gladwyne, Upper Merion, and the outer Main Line -- principally around Exton -- is more new money
______________
* Okay, these two are technically in the city. But they feel more like the Main Line.

Hmmm...if "Old Money" is code for WASPy, then West Mount Airy is definitely new money. It's very diverse with a strong Jewish presence. I think WMA is the definition of new money.

Otherwise yes, your assessment is correct w/ Chestnut Hill, Rittenhouse Square, and the Main Line being the epicenters of old money in Philadelphia. New money is definitely east of Broad in the city + University City and Gladwyne being new money.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Chicago's old money area is the Gold Coast.

cdn1.media.zp-cdn.com iStock_000023204082

The new money is spread out but can mostly be found throughout the Near North Side in all the shiny new condo towers. South Loop too.


c2.staticflickr.com/6/5004

I'm not sure this is true. The Gold Coast certainly has its share of old money (like one of the Wrigleys who lives at 65 E. Goethe), but there's probably more in the North Shore suburbs. It's certainly not in the houses you show above, most of which are only worth $2-3 million.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by 10023

I'm not sure this is true. The Gold Coast certainly has its share of old money (like one of the Wrigleys who lives at 65 E. Goethe), but there's probably more in the North Shore suburbs. It's certainly not in the houses you show above, most of which are only worth $2-3 million.

And I don't think the South Loop would really be "new money". It's just condo towers for (usually younger, middle class) folks of all types living in and around downtown. If anything it's one of the cheapest places in the core.

The new money area in Chicago proper would probably be those mansion blocks in Lincoln Park (Burling, Orchard, Dayton Streets). For the burbs, probably somewhere like Barrington or Lake Forest.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And I don't think the South Loop would really be "new money". It's just condo towers for (usually younger, middle class) folks of all types living in and around downtown. If anything it's one of the cheapest places in the core.

You can buy a 2 bedroom in one of those Museum Park buildings for $375k (plus whatever it takes to redecorate... yuck). That's not any kind of money, old or new.

Not that there isn't old money on the Gold Coast, but it's intermingled with new money (like everywhere else), and it's not necessarily in the old or new buildings. The age of the money and the age of the buildings have nothing to do with one another.

Originally Posted by Crawford

The new money area in Chicago proper would probably be those mansion blocks in Lincoln Park (Burling, Orchard, Dayton Streets). For the burbs, probably somewhere like Barrington or Lake Forest.

Barrington? No. It would be North Shore... Winnetka (where most of the Pritzkers live) up to Lake Forest.

[Ryanrule]

Originally Posted by 10023

You can buy a 2 bedroom in one of those Museum Park buildings for $375k (plus whatever it takes to redecorate... yuck). That's not any kind of money, old or new.

Not that there isn't old money on the Gold Coast, but it's intermingled with new money (like everywhere else), and it's not necessarily in the old or new buildings. The age of the money and the age of the buildings have nothing to do with one another.


Barrington? No. It would be North Shore... Winnetka (where most of the Pritzkers live) up to Lake Forest.

i see a few one bedrooms there at that price.
with the crappiest layout.
on the lowest floors.
look straight into someone elses windows
facing the crappiest direction.


but yeah, not old money.

also, all the suburbs should be brought under the full city tax district. pay their share.

[hauntedheadnc]

The oldest money around here was tied up in large estates, most of which were later sold off for development in the 1920's and a few later on. My neighborhood was such an estate. The "manor house" of that estate is still standing and is currently in use as a bed-and-breakfast. Up the road, another estate was sold off and developed as an apartment complex, and the mansion at its heart is the rental office. The ruins of another mansion, which burned down in 1912, are on on the other side of the mountain from me. Then there are mansions like Seely's Castle, which is still a private home on a fair piece of land, Zealandia Castle, which is now a timeshare corporation's offices and whose land was sold for development, and Biltmore Estate which boasts the biggest house in America and which is one of the biggest tourist attractions in the state.

Districts of old money would be the neighborhoods of Grove Park and Biltmore Forest, which was originally part of Biltmore Estate until Edith Vanderbilt sold it off in 1923. The rise of Biltmore Forest killed off our original mansion district of Montford, but Montford has been renewed with new money from all the rich people moving here from Atlanta, Florida, Charlotte, and DC. Other new money areas would be the Biltmore Park new urbanist development, and The Ramble, a new neighborhood in Biltmore Forest designed to look like the old 1920's mansions. Then you've got your usual upscale subdivisions out in the county such as Southcliff, and The Cliffs at Walnut Cove.

[Ch.G, Ch.G]

Originally Posted by 10023

Barrington? No. It would be North Shore... Winnetka (where most of the Pritzkers live) up to Lake Forest.

Yeah. Lake Forest is quintessential old money. Estates by David Adler and Howard Van Doren Shaw, which the current municipal code still tries to emulate using super restrictive design standards. Two small New England style LACs (well, one following Barat's closure in 2005) and two boarding schools, a rarity in the Midwest where education is generally more egalitarian. (In high school, the only kids I knew of who attended boarding school were those who couldn't hack the rigors of public school. It wasn't until I went to a college that had its own fucking admissions officer for Phillips – Andover that I was introduced to that absurd world of over-privilege.) Traditionally hostile to Jews. Conservative. Republican. Pearls and seersucker long before J. Crew adapted the style for the masses. Hell, it was even mentioned in The Great Gatsby and likely had an important influence on Fitzgerald's writing.

There's old money in the rest of the North Shore, but I don't think it's as an entrenched part of the culture. It also lives comfortably alongside new money. Highland Park, adjacent to and directly south of Lake Forest, is an exception; it's very new money, though not in a way that apes old money (as is, I believe, the case with Barrington). It's very liberal. It's flashier. "Artsier." Jewish. You even see this reflected in the architecture, which is considerably more diverse. HP, for example, has two FLWs (progressive and experimental for his time) in addition to other Prairie School homes where LF has none. As with Lake Forest, this feature is reflected in the municipal code; the City has no design review, meaning, in addition to the occasional successes by architects like A. James Speyer (Ferris Buller house) and Edward Dart, it's peppered by the kind of garish monstrosities one associates with the nouveau riche.

Growing up in the area, I always felt like the Lake Forest/Highland Park relationship was perfectly analogous to East Egg/West Egg.

[GlassCity]

Vancouver

Old money: West side of the city proper, the District Municipality of West Vancouver (which is an incorporated suburb, on a mountain. Basically our Beverly Hills)

New money: West Vancouver, downtown (there are condos selling for upwards of 5 million dollars that aren't even penthouses)