Your city's "Queens"

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by sbarn

I'm not entirely familiar with Rosedale in Toronto, but I gather its a pretty wealthy area. Perhaps the closest equivalent in NYC would be Riverdale, Bronx - but I think most the super wealthy / single-family home enclaves are located outside the city limits.

Rosedale would be the most exclusive enclave in Toronto. Not only did one need a lot of money, you needed to be of 'old money'. If you weren't from the right stock you weren't welcome there. Things aren't like that now but it's still a WASP bastion. There's really only one equivalent in Canada: Westmount in Montreal although that's far less WASP these days and not as wealthy as it used to be.

[Docere]

There's no such thing as a rich WASP neighborhood in NYC; probably hasn't been one for half a century.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Docere

There's no such thing as a rich WASP neighborhood in NYC; probably hasn't been one for half a century.

Toronto used to be a city divided upon religious lines. It was a Protestant town and why most Irish potato famine arrivals went to Montreal instead. Catholics and Jewish people got the left overs. Cabbagetown got its name because it was Irish and so poor that they grew cabbages in front of their houses for food. Forest Hill, the Bridal Path, and even York University are the result of Jewish people being turned away from Rosedale and the University of Toronto.

Those divisions are gone today but Rosedale families tend not to sell. There's very little turnover and why it's still quite WASP.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Toronto used to be a city divided upon religious lines. It was a Protestant town and why most Irish potato famine arrivals went to Montreal instead. Catholics and Jewish people got the left overs. Cabbagetown got its name because it was Irish and so poor that they grew cabbages in front of their houses for food. Forest Hill, the Bridal Path, and even York University are the result of Jewish people being turned away from Rosedale and the University of Toronto.

Those divisions are gone today but Rosedale families tend not to sell. There's very little turnover and why it's still quite WASP.

I'm Jewish and I've never heard the claim that York University was created because of anti-Semitism at U of T. How does that even make sense? U of T never even had Jewish quotas (McGill was far more notorious) and they heyday of quotas was in the 20s and 30s - York didn't even open until 1960! Lots of Jewish faculty got hired at both universities during the great expansion of universities. Also, Jews in Toronto who went to university in the 40s and 50s mostly went to - U of T. University College was heavily Jewish.

Also, Toronto got lots of Irish immigrants in the 19th century and had a higher proportion of Irish.

It is true that Rosedale however was pretty exclusively WASP until very recently.

I'm not sure why Forest Hill wasn't restricted when it was first developed. But it's not surprising it became heavily Jewish as it was right on the northern path of migration when the community suburbanized after WWII.

[Docere]

Some Rosedale pics:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67916...VxsQZ2Yxug!2e0

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.67857...nKVA8sVB0g!2e0

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Elm...42c279!6m1!1e1

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Docere

I'm Jewish and I've never heard the claim that York University was created because of anti-Semitism at U of T. How does that even make sense?

I thought that was common knowledge amongst Torontonians. Perhaps you should go have a closer look or ask your grandparents. Toronto hasn't always been a tolerant inclusive place. Whether things make sense rarely gets in the way if people are intent on bigotry.

York University also used to go by a rather offensive nick name I'd rather not repeat.

[streetscaper]

Hmm.. I'm not sure if there is an exact Rosedale equivalent within NYC city limits in terms of the history of needing to be "old money". If not, there probably would be in Westchester, Connecticut (and maybe Jersey).

There are wealthy and suburban-y areas within city limits, however. Two off the top of my head are Riverdale, Bronx and Forest Hills in Queens.


Forest Hills, Queens

Forrest Hills, Queens

Forest Hills, Queens

Riverdale, Bronx

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Docere

Also, Toronto got lots of Irish immigrants in the 19th century and had a higher proportion of Irish.

Toronto did get a lot of Irish immigrants due to its status in Canada, but many avoided Toronto because it was Protestant. It explains why so many English speaking Irish ended up in francophone Montreal: it was Catholic. This is well documented.

You even see mention of the anti-Catholic mindset of Toronto in shows like Murdoch Mysteries which is set in 1902 Toronto. If you weren't Protestant in Toronto back then life was a lot more difficult for you. I imagine you know about the Christie Pits riot?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Perhaps you should go have a closer look. I thought that was common knowledge amongst Torontonians

Sounds like an urban legend to me.

Do you have any evidence that U of T had Jewish quotas in1960? The heyday of Jewish quotas was a generation before York even opened.

[streetscaper]

Now that I'm reading up on it on Wiki, it seems that a large part of Forest Hills is a private community, that was subjected to "restrictive covenants" up until te 1970s. And it "features some of the most expensive properties in Queens"



Here's pics of the part that Google Street View is prohibited from going, it seems

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Perhaps you should go have a closer look or ask your grandparents.

The latter would be pretty much impossible.

How about instead of saying "everybody knows" - provide some evidence please.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Hmm.. I'm not sure if there is an exact Rosedale equivalent within NYC city limits in terms of the history of needing to be "old money". If not, there probably would be in Westchester, Connecticut (and maybe Jersey).]

The Upper East Side used to be "WASP old money" while wealthy Jews lived on the Upper West Side. However that hasn't been true in decades and today the UES is about 30% Jewish.

It's also nothing like Rosedale.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I imagine you know about the Christie Pits riot?

Of course I do. Every Jewish person over 80 who grew up in Toronto claims to have been there!

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comme...r_toronto.html

Here's a passage from historian Harold Troper - who co-authored None Is Too Many (with Irving Abella) - in his book The Defining Decade (p. 27) about Jewish life in Canada in the 60s:

With quotas restricting Jewish admissions now history, the University of Toronto and McGill University in Montreal - regarded as Canada's flagship universities with fine professional schools - remained first-choice Jewish-draw institutions for both locally born Jewish youth and Jews from elsewhere in Canada. Toronto's York University and Montreal's Sir George Williams (later Concordia) University also attracted goodly numbers of both Jewish students and faculty.

This is basically the leading book about Jewish life in Canada during this time period, and being the 1960s, universities merit much attention. Surely Troper would have mentioned that York was opened because of anti-Semitism at U of T.

I should also add that the problem for Jewish doctors in Toronto wasn't so much admission into U of T but rather discrimination in the city's hospitals.

http://www.cbmh.ca/index.php/cbmh/article/view/378/377

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by Docere

The Upper East Side used to be "WASP old money" while wealthy Jews lived on the Upper West Side. However that hasn't been true in decades and today the UES is about 30% Jewish.

It's also nothing like Rosedale.

I was strictly talking about the rich suburban-y areas within city limits. It's seems like Forest Hills (and maybe Riverdale) would be the closest match.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I thought that was common knowledge amongst Torontonians. Perhaps you should go have a closer look or ask your grandparents. Toronto hasn't always been a tolerant inclusive place. Whether things make sense rarely gets in the way if people are intent on bigotry.

York University also used to go by a rather offensive nick name I'd rather not repeat.

York University was established to provide higher education for the large and upwardly mobile boomer generation in the rapidly growing Toronto area. It happened to be built near-ish to where Jewish people were resettling in the suburbs and attracted a lot of Jewish students. Until recently, the school did not hold classes or exams on important Jewish holidays. Perhaps there's been some urban mythologizing about why that was?

Originally Posted by isaidso

Toronto did get a lot of Irish immigrants due to its status in Canada, but many avoided Toronto because it was Protestant. It explains why so many English speaking Irish ended up in francophone Montreal: it was Catholic. This is well documented.

You even see mention of the anti-Catholic mindset of Toronto in shows like Murdoch Mysteries which is set in 1902 Toronto. If you weren't Protestant in Toronto back then life was a lot more difficult for you. I imagine you know about the Christie Pits riot?

I'm not sure there's much evidence for Irish Catholics preferring Montreal over Toronto for sectarian reasons. There was tension between the (mostly) Anglophone Irish and Francophone Catholics as well for a number of reasons. Toronto did attract a lot of Irish Protestants during the Famine years (the Famine wasn't all that fun for Non-Conformists either), but the city was 25% Catholic by 1851 (the number of Catholics would continue to grow, but their percentage of the population would drop before Italians and others began to arrive en masse at the turn of the century). There were certainly flare-ups of sectarian violence between the two religious communities (see: the Jubilee Riots) and opportunities for Catholics were limited for a while. The city was once called "the Belfast of North America" for a reason, after all.

Keep in mind though that Irish immigrants - whether Protestant or Catholic - were far more likely to settle in rural areas in Ontario and the Maritimes than their counterparts in the US (and possibly Quebec?). There was still a lot of cheap land available for farmers in Canada at the time, and many of the Irish would've come from agrarian backgrounds.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by isaidso

T I was surprised that no Rosedale type neighbourhood exists in New York. Their Rosedale is in Connecticut? T

There are plenty of Rosedale-type neighborhoods in the NYC area, they just aren't in the city proper.

Toronto, historically, wasn't a particularly big city, so its "streetcar suburbs" are quite close to downtown. NYC was already an enormous city, so its Rosedale-type places are beyond the city limits (too many to list, but just go to any upscale town with a rail station in the suburbs).

And same goes for Bridal Path-type neighborhoods. They're all in the suburbs, and too many to list. Just go to any upscale suburban area not immediately proximate to rail.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

There's no such thing as a rich WASP neighborhood in NYC; probably hasn't been one for half a century.

This is true, but portions of the Upper East Side, especially the mid-portions around Lenox Hill, and Carnegie Hill close to the Park, still have a decent contingent of WASPs.

I would say that the Upper East Side from about 70th Street to 86th Street was heavily WASP until about 1980 or so. Park Avenue, in particular, was very WASP everywhere south of 86th Street. In fact, buildings north of 86th along Park were considered more Jewish-friendly than building to the south. Nowadays, of course, it isn't really relevant.

Carnegie Hill also has a bit of a WASP feel, even today, as does the far Upper East Side around Gracie Mansion. But the Upper East today is around 30% Jewish, has tons of international types, and doesn't overall have the WASP feel of the past.

There are some WASP suburbs, still. Nowadays mixed in with Catholics, but still relatively few Jews or minorities. Examples would be Bronxville (Westchester), Darien, New Canaan and Westport (Connecticut), Cold Spring Harbor, Garden City, and Manhasset (all Long Island).

The WASPiest part of the NYC metro area is Connecticut, without question. Pretty much every affluent CT town has a WASP feel, and really only Greenwich has a large Jewish population (and even Greenwich feels WASP compared to heavily Jewish suburbs in NY/NJ like Scarsdale, Great Neck, Jericho, Short Hills, etc.).

[johnnypd]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Toronto did get a lot of Irish immigrants due to its status in Canada, but many avoided Toronto because it was Protestant. It explains why so many English speaking Irish ended up in francophone Montreal: it was Catholic. This is well documented.

Interesting - my Irish catholic great-grandfather ended up living in Quebec and I always wondered why.

[10023]

But then I know Jewish people from Westport and Garden City, so it's not like these are all WASPs either. As for Carnegie Hill, I find it hard to even consider it a distinct neighborhood from the rest of the UES. Literally nothing changes on the other side of 86th Street. The only relevant distinction on the UES is how close to the park you are (i.e., the transition from wealthy to more middle class roughly between Lex and 3rd).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by johnnypd

Interesting - my Irish catholic great-grandfather ended up living in Quebec and I always wondered why.

I am not sure it's related to sectarian reasons though.

Many Irish settled in Quebec because it was the point of entry into Canada via the sea (ports at Quebec City and Montreal).

Montreal in particular was "the big city" in Canada during the period of massive Irish migration. Many would have stayed there and might not have had any reason (nor the money) to go further afield towards Ontario and Toronto.

Also, many of the Québécois Irish are actually descended from orphans, although I am not sure this is what we are discussing here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmIdCrkk9j0