DENVER | Transportation Thread

[bunt_q]

Haha, no, that'll get me to hang out at the bus stop more. I still won't be able to board because I don't carry cash.

[Wizened Variations]

There is an interesting article on the 16th Street Mall reported crime occurrences. A significant percentage of the crime is within two blocks of the southbound light rail station.

Both my wife and I have had problems waiting for trains at the 16th and Stout Street Station. About 2 years ago, I stopped a man from hurting a women and two children at about 7:00p. Very intense.

Smokers that I have talked to say that the cigarette mooch factor is huge. Likewise, panhandlers looking "for money to buy a light rail ticket" often are a pain.

The Station design is horrible because there is no control of through pedestrian traffic, as well as no easy way to segregate ticket holders from transients without tickets. Waiting for a train by the garage entrances for the building east of Walgreens can become uncomfortable. The area under the canopy by the entrance to Walgreens is the worst for mild harassment as many young males seem to want to put in a show for those of us downtown on business.

The article is a very good write up.

I am not talking about the "why's." Excuses seem to be all that I hear anymore.

[Scottk]

That stop has been that way for years. I think it needs to be made a fare paid only zone. swipe your fare to get into the area or something... I dont really know the logistics of how it would work.

too many scrubs and ICP kids hanging around with nothing better to do. Seriously trashy. Most of these kids aren't even from Denver. they are from Aurora, commerce city, etc, and come down to hang out. Makes Denver look bad

[bcp]

RyanD your DUS pictures are amazing...looks like they are still finishing it up for the 26th....Info booth? Ticket sales? A place to buy a newspaper/ snacks / gum etc.? I sure hope all these things show up soon. I really hope the velvet ropes disappear soon...haven't been yet, but looking nice!

And now time for a rant regarding the new bus terminal...gorgeous? absolutely...but i recall reading that RTD intentionally did want food vendors because they didn't want people "hanging out" there? wtf? so...they achieved their goal and have a very dead and quiet space...that said...here was my saturday experience:

1 - walk to the chestnut pavilion saturday at 5pm
2 - descend the stairs to a station with about 40 ppl, and utter silence (elevator music would have been a welcome sound). for god's sake..pump a little music RTD!
3 - walk to the ticket window for the BX bus ticket...no staff on the weekends. wait, not staff on the weekends?? ok...
4 - turn around to use the kiosk machines (which are all marked "monthly" for some reason...) ALL three have broken card readers.
5 - walk to the end of the station looking for another kiosk...NO OTHER KIOSKS
6 - walk back to the middle of the station looking for an ATM machine, ask a the police desk about an ATM....THERE IS NO ATM...WHAT??!?!
7 - walk to the end of the station and exit because the CLOSEST ATM is across wynkoop street at a bank.
8- miss my first bus
9 - get cash, have a guinness at the lion place, because i know i must have exact change for the bus.
10 - return to the station back to the utter, uncomfortable silence.
11 - look for the bathroom...there is ONE - all the way on the other end of the station.
11 - i have 20 minutes to kill...i'd like a newspaper, magazine, anything to entertain me and for the ride...but no, there is no newstand in the bus station or anywhere nearby...
12 - once you are in the station..there is no big-board, no announcements...so it's a blind hunt unless you noticed your gate on the down escalator...(and those boards are VERY nice!)


RTD - please loosen up and make some improvements...big, fun, loud, convenient, a little messy is ok!

At a bare minimum...give us an ATM machine and ticket machines at both ends of the station and in the middle that actually WORK. Create a job or two and let somebody have a basic news stand / kiosk.

Call me crazy, but these seem like very basic things and low hanging fruit when building such a beautiful station.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bcp

Call me crazy, but these seem like very basic things and low hanging fruit when building such a beautiful station.

Agreed on the ATM and the additional ticket machines, as for the kiosk: maybe RTD took to heart the message that print is dead? Except for tickets of course.

Union Station needs to can half of the couches, and kill the living room motif. I don't think it works very well in the Great Hall and it's giving the place a case of schizophrenia. Also, the tables by the Terminal Bar reminds me of the fold-out tables that you find in a school cafeteria. Maybe the couches should be moved there? I hope that Union Station Alliance does work with RTD and get a departure board set up in the Great Hall when commuter rail starts up. It's fine that Amtrak has a couple and I don't know if a big one is necessary for the buses (though CDOT's start up of regional commuter bus service may change that) , but at least provide something for the rest of the trains.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Scottk

That stop has been that way for years. I think it needs to be made a fare paid only zone. swipe your fare to get into the area or something... I dont really know the logistics of how it would work.

too many scrubs and ICP kids hanging around with nothing better to do. Seriously trashy. Most of these kids aren't even from Denver. they are from Aurora, commerce city, etc, and come down to hang out. Makes Denver look bad

For those of us who use the station, the problem mix consists of kids of high school age from the Five Points Area, and, the Osage Station area. Combine that with better heeled wanna bees, and, a small, yet dangerous group of people in their late 30s and 40s, who if they don't live on the street, they soon will.

The problem is getting worse, as the traffic at the station continues to build during evening rush hour (even though the problem worsens after the rush starting about 6:00p when the station has less riders waiting for trains). For many in Uptown the extra travel time to get to DUS Light obviously is not a worthwhile choice (and the new shuttle, while pleasant, cannot hope to handle a big enough traffic load).

A lot of money is going to have to be put into fixing the station, IMO. RTD may have to buy out the garage next to Walgreens, and, force those without tickets across the street.

This is an indirect result of low level platforms.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

This is an indirect result of low level platforms.

Not sure how a high-level platform would ease the issue. Since the station is adjacent to and uses a public right right of way even a raised platform would have issues. I'm envisioning something similar to what Calgary uses and you would still have the same issues.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

For those of us who use the station, the problem mix consists of kids of high school age from the Five Points Area, and, the Osage Station area. Combine that with better heeled wanna bees, and, a small, yet dangerous group of people in their late 30s and 40s, who if they don't live on the street, they soon will.

The problem is getting worse, as the traffic at the station continues to build during evening rush hour (even though the problem worsens after the rush starting about 6:00p when the station has less riders waiting for trains). For many in Uptown the extra travel time to get to DUS Light obviously is not a worthwhile choice (and the new shuttle, while pleasant, cannot hope to handle a big enough traffic load).

A lot of money is going to have to be put into fixing the station, IMO. RTD may have to buy out the garage next to Walgreens, and, force those without tickets across the street.

This is an indirect result of low level platforms.

The five points crowd tends to hang around 16th and California not 16th and Stout.

Why are you operating under the assumption that it's the station that is causing most of these incidents at 16th/Stout? The crimes are reported and mapped by address and the two large circles at 16th/stout correspond to Walgreens and Rite Aid. The conclusion I would draw from that is the shoplifting at Rite Aid and Walgreens is quite substantial.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by denconyny

here..... Maybe this will get you to use the bus more often.........



maybe.....?

Too funny.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Broadway and Lincoln are regional corridors, and are important for people all over the metro area, including the CCD south of there, for getting in and out of downtown.

What does this mean? By that I mean is this a state designated road or DRCOG or what? I'm wondering the funding responsibilities.

While I don't recall exactly, I do recall that the South Broadway improvements recently undertaken, in spite of bond funding for Denver's matching share, the great majority of funding came via Federal subsidies. Not sure the political winds are blowing such that these kind of funds will be readily available anytime soon.

Even if one envisions more of a cheap lipstick on a pig approach I'm sure it will still take significant investment. Perhaps if the neighborhoods would agree (by a vote) to raise their own property taxes to support a majority of the makeover costs it indeed might be viable.

I generally agree with bunt_q that this corridor is too important north of I-25 or Alameda to do anything other than very modest improvements.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Meanwhile, it's folly to ignore our transportation funding situation. With gas tax revenue declining we don't have the funds to expand driving capacity along with the population even if we wanted to.

So help me out here: What's the problem?

The problem here is that the buffoons in Washington haven't raised fuel taxes in over two decades (1993), not even to keep up with inflation.

But it wasn't a problem under Bush as billions upon billions were created out of deficit air called "earmarks." Denver Metro thrived off of those earmarks. LOL Gotta love politics.

But like Global Warming melting the icecaps it appears that the political stalemate in DC is thawing under harsher realities such that fuel taxes are likely to be raised sooner than later.

After all nothing is more critical than our infrastructure. There's little partisan disagreement around the needs, just the mechanisms and level of funding. And while Republicans initially pushed the idea of private sector responsibility that magical (tolling) answer doesn't always sell so well with Jim Bob. While P3's may be a part of the solution, they aren't the whole solution and Jim Bob's whole clan are voters.

[TakeFive]

House passes bill funding highway projects:
So once again they kick the can, but that's OK, they've been doing this for several years now. Conservatives whined but it passed by a vote of 367-55. I assume it flies through the Senate. Yes, this includes transit funding as well.

I'm optimistic that next spring they'll finally get the bill done right. Not concerned which party controls what after the elections but I will be watching to see who gets elected.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and an influential business group led by AutoNation CEO Michael Jackson are making a big push in primaries to support business friendly "normal" candidates as apposed to Tea Party not so business friendly folk.

And yes "business Republicans" tend to be much more transit friendly. Dallas may be building more freeway lanes but they also brag of having the most miles of light rail of any city. Salt Lake City and the Wasatch Front Range have nice transit options and the most transit per capita.

In order to support more and better transit we need a robust new "Trust Fund" bill. I think we'll get it. Nothing more vital to business than infrastructure.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bobg

The five points crowd tends to hang around 16th and California not 16th and Stout.

Why are you operating under the assumption that it's the station that is causing most of these incidents at 16th/Stout? The crimes are reported and mapped by address and the two large circles at 16th/stout correspond to Walgreens and Rite Aid. The conclusion I would draw from that is the shoplifting at Rite Aid and Walgreens is quite substantial.

Whoops, got my southbound and northbound streets switched/ You are absolutely correct. The northbound line serves the morning rush. I had been talking about the evening rush.

I have used the California station about 500 times since it was built.

I am sure that shop lifting, assaults, robbery, and, aggressive panhandling occur here (seen them all).

The problem relates directly to platform height due to the reality that higher platform stations are easier to isolate from non-user traffic. Platforms can be surrounded by fences, with entry confined to gates. Street level platforms are easily accessible across the tracks, particularly if a fence does not exist between the track and the paralleling street. More importantly, raised station platforms define their own unique space, while the street level platform too often shares space with a sidewalk.

If I were policeperson and questioned someone standing in the rider waiting area at California and the Mall, I could not demand that the person provide me with a valid ticket. On the other hand, if there is a raised platform labeled Station platform, the space can more easily be isolated from pedestrian traffic with a sign, "Passengers with Valid Tickets only", so that I, as a policeman, could issue a ticket for trespassing. Add the previously discussed fence on the road side of the light rail track with a raised platform, and, the isolation process would be almost complete.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

House passes bill funding highway projects:
So once again they kick the can, but that's OK, they've been doing this for several years now. Conservatives whined but it passed by a vote of 367-55. I assume it flies through the Senate. Yes, this includes transit funding as well.

I'm optimistic that next spring they'll finally get the bill done right. Not concerned which party controls what after the elections but I will be watching to see who gets elected.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce and an influential business group led by AutoNation CEO Michael Jackson are making a big push in primaries to support business friendly "normal" candidates as apposed to Tea Party not so business friendly folk.

And yes "business Republicans" tend to be much more transit friendly. Dallas may be building more freeway lanes but they also brag of having the most miles of light rail of any city. Salt Lake City and the Wasatch Front Range have nice transit options and the most transit per capita.

In order to support more and better transit we need a robust new "Trust Fund" bill. I think we'll get it. Nothing more vital to business than infrastructure.

Politics at our national level is inordinately complex. Too much of the problem with crafting any piece of useful legislation simply relates to groups and subgroups of elected officials insisting that X be done before they agree to Y.

We have a few enormous issues which until dealt with IMO will prevent a good infrastructure package. First, the immigration issue. While on the surface the issue is separate from the infrastructure issue, various members of Congress and various Senators can use dealing with immigration legislation as the price they ask before an infrastructural bill will be crafted.

Of course, in the interim, earmarks will be written, but these earmarks will be very localized, and, will be added as sweeteners to entice our elected representatives to approve other legislator requested earmarks.

I am far less confident that there will be a good piece of legislation written due national debt service issues, and, due to few legislators wanting to publically agree to anything our current Presidential administration wants. IMO, the against the President argument will be the most public, as the true implications of even raising the prime rate 1% on debt service make the worst nightmares seem like light comedy.

If anything, we will have to wait until the 2016 cycle for anything meaningful to be accomplished.

[PLANSIT]

Just saw one of the new New Flyer Xcelsior artics running the 15L. Pretty nice looking. I'll try to grab a photo next time.

New Fly Xcelsior

Looks a lot like this:

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

Politics at our national level is inordinately complex.

You're missing the big picture. Politics has an ebb and flow to it as well.

A) A polling majority now supports immigration reform. Even the Koch Bros. support it. The anti-crowd is a fading tea party cause. If it doesn't pass in the lame duck session look for it to pass after the 1st of the year.

B) Building local roads and bridges (or transit) is well local. Nobody cares about the President. A majority of the construction industry is Republican. There's already a bipartisan plan to raise gas taxes. When they decide to pass something both sides will take credit. It's not a problem.

Lastly after the 2014 election and lets assume Republicans win a majority of the Senate, they'll want to show they can pass/accomplish a few things and it's way too far in front of the 2016 election to be of concern. The greater business community wants a more business friendly Congress and bills that reflect this. Don't over complicate it.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

If I were policeperson and questioned someone standing in the rider waiting area at California and the Mall, I could not demand that the person provide me with a valid ticket.

You're adorable thinking police"persons" wouldn't do this really tiny ethical/procedural hiccup. Unless you meant if YOU and only you were a police officer you wouldn't do this. I mean, I don't know how you can tell the difference between criminals and public transit riders... but if the police had a way to profile people to do this, they would if they had even the slightest inkling to. (not officially of course)

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

You're adorable thinking police"persons" wouldn't do this really tiny ethical/procedural hiccup. Unless you meant if YOU and only you were a police officer you wouldn't do this. I mean, I don't know how you can tell the difference between criminals and public transit riders... but if the police had a way to profile people to do this, they would if they had even the slightest inkling to. (not officially of course)

The key is not whether someone is a criminal but being in a position where a legitimate question can be asked of people occupying a "floor space."

If an area is "secured" even it is with a police tape, a policeman can check if some entering the cordoned off area has business being there. Likewise, a transit cop if the station has only one entrance (the entrance itself does not have to be secure) and is labeled "All people on the station platform must have a valid train ticket" the transit cop has the right to ask anyone to show proof of a "valid train ticket" and, if not, issue same a "ticket" as defined by statute.

You hit the problem square on, because without a space being bounded, and, if that space is not private property, that a policeman has little right to ask for identification (although in big cities such as NYC this has been official policy at times). Asking for identification or asking someone to leave a public space on the basis of visual profiling can easily become police harassment.

What I am suggesting is that the space for waiting riders at the California and 16th Street Station is public space, as it is. In order to change this, the use of the space has to become restricted on the basis of possessing a valid ticket. As it is now, the station waiting area shares usage with the sidewalk. The question, therefore is, how can this space be made restricted? And, the only way this is possible is to remove the public sidewalk function from that space.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

You're missing the big picture. Politics has an ebb and flow to it as well.

A) A polling majority now supports immigration reform. Even the Koch Bros. support it. The anti-crowd is a fading tea party cause. If it doesn't pass in the lame duck session look for it to pass after the 1st of the year.

B) Building local roads and bridges (or transit) is well local. Nobody cares about the President. A majority of the construction industry is Republican. There's already a bipartisan plan to raise gas taxes. When they decide to pass something both sides will take credit. It's not a problem.

Lastly after the 2014 election and lets assume Republicans win a majority of the Senate, they'll want to show they can pass/accomplish a few things and it's way too far in front of the 2016 election to be of concern. The greater business community wants a more business friendly Congress and bills that reflect this. Don't over complicate it.

Compared to political reality you and I are both radically simplifying it.

When it comes to politics, count on nothing, and, hedge your bets.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

What I am suggesting is that the space for waiting riders at the California and 16th Street Station is public space, as it is. In order to change this, the use of the space has to become restricted on the basis of possessing a valid ticket. As it is now, the station waiting area shares usage with the sidewalk. The question, therefore is, how can this space be made restricted? And, the only way this is possible is to remove the public sidewalk function from that space.

Which is extremely difficult given the layout. Calgary runs it's light rail right down the middle of the street, with the entire street being a devoted transit way, with elevated platforms and even then you can see that making the station a secure zone would be very difficult in that case where the platform is a heck of lot wider. You could do it at 16th and Stout but it would be one hell of a narrow platform and, as you mentioned, it would require RTD to eliminate the garage entrance on Stout. Though you could reconfigure the garage to have its entrance/exit on Champa.