Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

MolsonEx's uncle who lives in Lévis would be a good example showing how "Québécois Status" is easily achievable by people of British Isles ancestry.

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

I hope the peninsular elites remember the little guys when they meet in the Caraquet Tim Hortons for roll up the rim days.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And to be honest, there is also a lot of self exclusion and isolation amongst certain francophone populations dans le Canada hors Quebec too, for example in la Peninsule.

It's not just an anglophone problem..........

Good point though they don't complain that New BrunswickER as an identity does not intuititively evoke for many people someone who is a francophone.

They don't think of the New BrunswickER identity much at all.

The people in Macadam and Hartland can have it all for themselves. (Though NB Acadians harbour no ill-will towards their province.)

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And if we're being honest, at least part of the "anglophones aren't considered real Québécois" gripe is actually the result of self-exclusion and isolation.

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

What about the accusations that “Jean” Charest was actually “John” or the way the separatists would accusatorially emphasize the “Elliot” in “Pierre Elliot Trudeau”? .

Trudeau and Charest got that (PET way more than Charest) due to the nastiness of the political game, fuelled by a perception - right or wrong - that they were working against what most regarded as the interests of the "nation".

For the record I've never heard anyone do anything like that to Mulcair or Mulroney, who are both also federalists from Quebec, in addition to being more audibly anglophone (Mulcair) or born of two anglophone parents (Mulroney).

Which should in theory cost them more "purity" points than Charest and Trudeau. Well, if that many people actually cared about such things.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It would never occur to me to say that a Franco-Manitoban who didn’t speak English all that well, or even at all, wasn’t a “Manitoban” in the fullest sense, despite any self-exclusion or isolation.

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

As usual, things are bit more complicated in Quebec.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I get that but the point is rather moot. Finding a Franco-Manitoban who isn't reasonably integrated into the wider Manitoban society (including linguistically) at this point in history is akin to finding a unicorn in Riding Mountain NP.

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

very good post. You have articulated my thoughts much more clearly than I have been able to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

To Acajack, an anglophone resident in Quebec is free to call himself a Quebecker, but will never be considered Quebecois unless he/she makes sincere efforts to inculcate him/herself to the majority. Being a Quebecois is a state of mind. Even being able to speak decent French is not enough to make yourself Quebecois. You have to buy into the culture and mindset in order to join the club.

To use an Atlantic Canadian analogy - you will remain a "come from away." I used to half jokingly say that an immigrant to PEI would remain a CFA until the seventh generation. I don't think this is so much the case now as it used to be, but in the old days, a lot of value used to be placed on ones physical connections to the Island, and to the Island's traditions and heritage. This isn't to say that one couldn't eventually become an "Islander." For example there is a large Lebanese community on PEI. They've been there for well over 100 years. There have been Lebanese-Canadians who have been Mayor of Charlottetown and Premier(s) of PEI. They have been adopted by the Island community and are considered one of "us".

So, this isn't just a Quebec problem. A lot of insular societies have similar world views. Just as Islanders have adopted their Lebanese community, so have the Quebecois with (selected) anglophones. The adoption process in Quebec however is highly selective, and I doubt that more than 1-3% of anglo-Quebeckers are also considered Quebecois.

How about it Acajack? What percentage of Quebeckers do you think are also considered Quebecois???

Well, 99% of Anglo-Quebecers aren't public figures like the ones I rattled off.

In terms of being considered Québécois by their immediate entourage? It's certainly much higher than 1-3%.

I have people I know who have English names like Jill Smith who speak unaccented French. It's hard to tell if they're actually anglophones (even if bilingual) or if they're simply francophones with an anglo name.

Human identities can be quite fluid and not necessarily clear-cut.

I think Begratto or GreaterMontréal once mentioned that one's accent in French was a major determinant. I think that that's what people would use if you pressed them with a question. Though there are many exceptions of course to the accent rule, and if someone is well integrated but with an accent, they'll be considered Québécois as well. Note that someone originally from France but with a Parisian accent might not be considered Québécois either, whereas Mike Bossy who speaks fluent Québécois hockey rink French with an anglo accent and makes the occasional mistake, is considered Québécois by everyone.

And there isn't really a "political mindset" threshold to be met either. I have no idea of what Mike Bossy's political views are on independence, Bill 21, the future of the French language. And neither does anyone else.

Mike Bossy and Georges Laraque are considered Québécois because they sound like Québécois and act like Québécois.

You know one when you "see" (sic) one.

Good post BTW.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of being considered Québécois by their immediate entourage? It's certainly much higher than 1-3%.

I'd imagine many of those who weren't willing to made part of the Québécois clan have self-selected out of the province by the mid-1990s.

I can't see more than a small percentage remaining, simply because being a "foreigner" in day-to-day life is an alienating experience. Aside from a few holdout areas in Montreal and some of Gatineau, why stay?

It's kind of like being an ex-pat in your own country. Either you go native or leave.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

There aren't many anglos in Drummondville and even fewer who don't speak French.

But still, do you know what the percentage of unilingual anglos in Quebec City is? It's around 15%.

That's not exactly unicorn territory.

The area of Gatineau where I live isn't as homogenously francophone as Quebec City is, but it's still close to 90%. I have lived here for 20 years and there are people I know (not personally, but that I recognize) who still respond with a semi-flustered "what's that?" to bus drivers and grocery store clerks who greet them with a "bonjour".

And they've been living here for as long as I have. Some of them I took the bus with most every day for 10-15 years.

You could drop me in the middle of Thailand and within a fairly short time I'd have the basics of everyday communication down pat. Wouldn't you?

BTW, if these people want to do this, it's fine. But it's a bit rich after that to complain that people don't view them as fully Québécois and part of the "us". Especially when you have so many other people (often with greater challenges) who put in so much effort to integrate.

So yeah, things are a given when it comes to who is "Manitoban" in Manitoba for a reason. There are also reasons for the way things are in Quebec as well.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But still, do you know what the percentage of unilingual anglos in Quebec City is? It's around 15%

I find this very hard to believe. I've been to QC a half dozen times, and outside the tourism zone in the old walled city, it's pretty rare to ever hear any English spoken. Where are all these anglophones hiding??

There would be a few up in Val Cartier because of the army base, to be sure, but it would be very difficult for a unilingual anglophone to make a go of it anywhere in the vraie capitale without starving to death.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But still, do you know what the percentage of unilingual anglos in Quebec City is? It's around 15%

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I find this very hard to believe. I've been to QC a half dozen times, and outside the tourism zone in the old walled city, it's pretty rare to ever hear any English spoken. Where are all these anglophones hiding??

They don't exist.

2016 Census, Ville de Quebec

Knowledge of Official Languages, English Only: 0.26%
First Official Language Spoken, English: 1.68%
Mother Tongue, English: 1.41%
Language Spoken at home, English: 1.07%
Knowledge of Language, English: 40.67%

More people know neither English nor French than there are unilingual Anglophones in Quebec City. I've no clue where this 15% number is coming from.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...TABID=1&type=0

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

How is that any different from an anglo living in, say, Drummondville? Even if the anglo watches the CBC News at night instead of TVA, there is probably going to be some baseline level of integration with the community where they work, shop, maybe belong to a community organization or two, etc. I guess it's possible that someone could use technology to live remotely in English Canada and seal themselves off totally from their immediate surroundings, but it strikes me as a bit unlikely.

There are people in Manitoba who live their lives mostly in Punjabi, German, Russian, Chinese, Cree and even French, but they are still considered Manitoban.

kool maudit nailed that - "Manitoban" isn't an actual ethnocultural identity. It's just whoever lives in that particular jurisdiction.

A South Asian guy who speaks only Punjabi and not a single word of Russian and who lives and works in Moscow (obviously for a South Asian boss there) isn't "a Russian", but rather, "a guy who lives in Russia at the moment".

(Don't you guys get that difference instinctively? Isn't it... just obvious? Sincere question.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

kool maudit nailed that - "Manitoban" isn't an actual ethnocultural identity. It's just whoever lives in that particular jurisdiction.

Without insulting anyone, it's really an "administrative status" as opposed to an ethnocultural identity.

The ethnocultural identity of the vast majority of Manitobans is "(Anglo-)CanadiAn".

Though yes there are specific groups within Manitoba that have a distinctive province-specific ethnocultural identity. The Métis of Manitoba are a classic example, but there are some others as well.

[CivicBlues]

Thank the mods for finally creating this thread. What took so long? Maybe the rest of us can finally peruse the other threads at our leisure without having to read through page after page of some obtuse take from Anglo-Quebecois-growing-up-in-Franco-Ontario point of view. Or whatever.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

A South Asian guy who speaks only Punjabi and not a single word of Russian and who lives and works in Moscow (obviously for a South Asian boss there) isn't "a Russian", but rather, "a guy who lives in Russia at the moment".

(Don't you guys get that difference instinctively? Isn't it... just obvious? Sincere question.)

In Canada, such considerations are never simple sociological assessments as they are in most places. There is always a political calculation behind the admission that such things are true, or the denial of them.

Similarly, did you know that in Belgium (in Brussels especially) the government no longer takes census data on language, in order to keep the lid on tensions over which group is dominant in the city?

So journalists have resorted to making access to information requests for data on such things such as the percentage of tax returns filed in either language, in order to make determinations on the demographics of the city.

France, as some people are aware, doesn't take census data on race or ethnic origin. And hasn't for decades.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

kool maudit nailed that - "Manitoban" isn't an actual ethnocultural identity. It's just whoever lives in that particular jurisdiction.

A South Asian guy who speaks only Punjabi and not a single word of Russian and who lives and works in Moscow (obviously for a South Asian boss there) isn't "a Russian", but rather, "a guy who lives in Russia at the moment".

(Don't you guys get that difference instinctively? Isn't it... just obvious? Sincere question.)

Of course it's clear. It's just interesting to see how one provincial identity is constructed to emphasize residency and the other to emphasize language and bloodlines.

I would suspect that English Canada had a similar more exclusion-oriented approach at one time... someone not descended from the British Isles or at the very least Western Europe might have been regarded as an "other", in the days before large scale immigration from outside those areas. The idea that you could be someone from Chandigarh and speak Punjabi most of the time but still be Manitoban (or Nova Scotian or whatever) has to be fairly new, like post-PET.