The-where-should-RyanD-move thread

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by RyanD

So we figured it out this morning financially. For a 350k place here in Denver, property taxes will we around 1200 a year, same as if you were to buy place in Chicago for 175k. This is the catch. We can afford a mortgage comfortably with property tax and hoa in Chicago on a 175k condo. Can't even afford the base mortgage of an average Denver place. Yes it's more expensive on paper as far as percentages go, but it's more affordable because your base is cheaper.

Property taxes on a $350k place in Denver will be $2,300. (Minimum, at 83 base mills in Denver, assuming you're not in any special taxing districts, 7.96% residential assessment ratio).

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Property taxes on a $350k place in Denver will be $2,300. (Minimum, at 83 base mills in Denver, assuming you're not in any special taxing districts, 7.96% residential assessment ratio).

Gotcha. I am bad when it comes to home buying and property tax inter workings... I have no clue because go figure I never thought I could buy here for a long time. Regardless, an extra hundred or so a month on a much cheaper base sells me. Still puts my monthly payment much cheaper than any Denver place.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Sales tax isn't triple, it's 9%, vs, 8% here.

Property tax is hard to compare since it's not a fixed percentage. We have gallagherized mill levies, they have homeowner exemptions and equalizers... but it's roughly double, at least in the city. (I know in the Chicago burbs, the disparity can be much greater.)

South Loop isn't shooty. At least not the parts with the glassy new towers, which is where I'd be looking if I moved there. It's basically buildings like Spire (and also priced like Spire was early on).

Dooh! Wasn't looking at the total sales tax for Denver. Whoops. South Loop is a bit shoot-y. It's not the worst spot, though robbery and property crimes are pretty damn high. It's not the spot for me. I'd prefer to be further north closer to Evanston. But I also need a bit more space than a single swinger like you.... or a dude like Ryan with a fiance and no kids.

[DenverPoke]

Edit: I just ran a COL comparison on Sperling's and according to them Denver is indeed more expensive.

Denver vs Chicago for 6 criteria:

Housing- 147.9 , 97.4
Food - 97.2, 103.7
Utilities - 89.9, 106.4
Transportation- 93.3, 111.7
Health- 109.7, 104.3
Misc- 104.3, 104.5

Overall- 115.1 vs 104.3

Guess I am indeed wrong, as usual.

[TakeFive]

Being a little different; thinking of raising kids, being happy, healthy in the upper Mid-west/east I'd look at places like Minneapolis, Des Moines, Indianapolis, Ann Arbor, Columbus/Cincinnati etc.

[chickenbone]

A someone who used to live in Chicago but now lives in Denver, I can say that Denver is indeed cheaper when it comes to things like food, gas, car insurance, renters insurance, sales tax. Rents I'd say are comparable between the two cities. I rented a one bedroom in Uptown in Chicago for $1,200 a month. Uptown isn't the greatest neighborhood, for those who don't know. Better neighborhoods like Andersonville or Lakeview would be more like $1,400 to $1,500 for a one bedroom. And the South Loop would be more like $1,700 or $1,800. So that seems similar to Denver to me.

The advantage Chicago has is that it's so much bigger than Denver that it's possible to find housing options for a lot cheaper and still be in a very urban area. Denver's options are much more limited in this regard. Chicago also has much better access to public transportation, more cultural attractions, more nightlife, etc.

BUT, and here's the reason I left Chicago: the weather SUCKS! Like, I would be close to slitting my wrists by March every year because the winter made me so depressed. Throw in crime and corruption and it was time for me to leave. I know some people here just want to live in a big city with tall buildings no matter what. But for me there is a balance between urban and quality of life.

[mojiferous]

Originally Posted by DenverPoke

Edit: I just ran a COL comparison on Sperling's and according to them Denver is indeed more expensive.

Denver vs Chicago for 6 criteria:

Housing- 147.9 , 97.4
Food - 97.2, 103.7
Utilities - 89.9, 106.4
Transportation- 93.3, 111.7
Health- 109.7, 104.3
Misc- 104.3, 104.5

Overall- 115.1 vs 104.3

Guess I am indeed wrong, as usual.

Welllll... It also depends on salary. There is also a decrease in average salary between here and Chicago, at least for software developers like me. 10% cheaper in overall cost means nothing if my income decreases by almost the same.

[DownhomeDenver]

Originally Posted by chickenbone

A someone who used to live in Chicago but now lives in Denver, I can say that Denver is indeed cheaper when it comes to things like food, gas, car insurance, renters insurance, sales tax. Rents I'd say are comparable between the two cities. I rented a one bedroom in Uptown in Chicago for $1,200 a month. Uptown isn't the greatest neighborhood, for those who don't know. Better neighborhoods like Andersonville or Lakeview would be more like $1,400 to $1,500 for a one bedroom. And the South Loop would be more like $1,700 or $1,800. So that seems similar to Denver to me.

The advantage Chicago has is that it's so much bigger than Denver that it's possible to find housing options for a lot cheaper and still be in a very urban area. Denver's options are much more limited in this regard. Chicago also has much better access to public transportation, more cultural attractions, more nightlife, etc.

BUT, and here's the reason I left Chicago: the weather SUCKS! Like, I would be close to slitting my wrists by March every year because the winter made me so depressed. Throw in crime and corruption and it was time for me to leave. I know some people here just want to live in a big city with tall buildings no matter what. But for me there is a balance between urban and quality of life.

hahaha screw Chicago and that humidity and bullshit. No thanks. Philly isn't any better weather wise.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by chickenbone

I know some people here just want to live in a big city with tall buildings no matter what. But for me there is a balance between urban and quality of life.

I think what you mean is that your personal definition of "quality of life" relies less heavily on urban qualities and more heavily on weather than some people here. I reject the notion that "quality of life" means only sunny skies. We all define "quality of life" differently.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I think what you mean is that your personal definition of "quality of life" relies less heavily on urban qualities and more heavily on weather than some people here. I reject the notion that "quality of life" means only sunny skies. We all define "quality of life" differently.

No, and you have to tell yourself that if you live in a place like Chicago or that god-forsaken cesspool of political malfeasance known as DC (which I'll be in next month, yay humidity!)

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by chickenbone

A someone who used to live in Chicago but now lives in Denver, I can say that Denver is indeed cheaper when it comes to things like food, gas, car insurance, renters insurance, sales tax. Rents I'd say are comparable between the two cities. I rented a one bedroom in Uptown in Chicago for $1,200 a month. Uptown isn't the greatest neighborhood, for those who don't know. Better neighborhoods like Andersonville or Lakeview would be more like $1,400 to $1,500 for a one bedroom. And the South Loop would be more like $1,700 or $1,800. So that seems similar to Denver to me.

The advantage Chicago has is that it's so much bigger than Denver that it's possible to find housing options for a lot cheaper and still be in a very urban area. Denver's options are much more limited in this regard. Chicago also has much better access to public transportation, more cultural attractions, more nightlife, etc.

BUT, and here's the reason I left Chicago: the weather SUCKS! Like, I would be close to slitting my wrists by March every year because the winter made me so depressed. Throw in crime and corruption and it was time for me to leave. I know some people here just want to live in a big city with tall buildings no matter what. But for me there is a balance between urban and quality of life.

Agree with this. There are way more cheap options for living in Chicago, which is probably what Ryan is considering. My experience was that it was an expensive city to live in. Parking, food, transit...an apartment or condo may be cheaper there but other costs balance it out. I guess my point was that if you think you are going to have an easier time financially raising a family in Chicago vs Denver, you would be mistaken.

As for the weather, yes take the worst 2 or 3 weeks here in Denver and expand that out to about 5 months and you have Chicago. That said, Chicago is an amazing city and I wouldn't fault anyone for moving there.

[bcp]

i'm not sure how this became the unofficial denver v. chicago thread ...but i've lived in both cities, twice!

there is simply no comparison between the two...it would be a bloody, bloody battle for denver. keep in mind that chicago is essentially one half of nyc - half the people and half the skyscraper count. it's a totally different league than denver. there are some fiscal issues for the city / state....but it's being fixed by a new governor (R) and Rahm is doing a pretty darn good job (D). It's certainly not as dire as DenverPoke seems to think

the cost thing boils down to drinks / food I think....much pricier here. otherwise, it's about the same on cost - and you barely need a car (i drive about 2x / month...) so you could save $500 / month easy by not having a car. the walkable areas of the city are vast.

weather? it's the one area that denver crushes chicago...but this is what business trips and holidays are for during that bad 5 months.

[chickenbone]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I think what you mean is that your personal definition of "quality of life" relies less heavily on urban qualities and more heavily on weather than some people here. I reject the notion that "quality of life" means only sunny skies. We all define "quality of life" differently.

I think what I mean is that the grass isn't always greener on the other side. People on here were talking about Chicago like it's some kind of urban paradise compared to Denver. And it's not. There are good things and bad things about every city.

[DenverPoke]

Originally Posted by bcp

i'm not sure how this became the unofficial denver v. chicago thread ...but i've lived in both cities, twice!

there is simply no comparison between the two...it would be a bloody, bloody battle for denver. keep in mind that chicago is essentially one half of nyc - half the people and half the skyscraper count. it's a totally different league than denver. there are some fiscal issues for the city / state....but it's being fixed by a new governor (R) and Rahm is doing a pretty darn good job (D). It's certainly not as dire as DenverPoke seems to think

the cost thing boils down to drinks / food I think....much pricier here. otherwise, it's about the same on cost - and you barely need a car (i drive about 2x / month...) so you could save $500 / month easy by not having a car. the walkable areas of the city are vast.

weather? it's the one area that denver crushes chicago...but this is what business trips and holidays are for during that bad 5 months.

Hey now, I've said nothing bad or dire about Chicago. I've only stated that I don't think it's any less expensive than Denver. And I agree, totally different cities. I loved my time there and go back at least once or twice a year (in the summer).

[bcp]

^ sorry, i meant Take5! All in good fun...

[RyanD]

I think it all boils down to how you live. As Bunt said, eggs have to cost a LOT more to justify not moving somewhere else. I'm not going to eat and drink out everyday. Let's say I'm saving about $500-800 / month on housing costs alone. I don't think I'm going to be spending that in extra expenses including insurance, etc. Including BCP's point, I won't be driving nearly as much. God knows, I drive a lot in Denver now...

[Agent Orange]

So, I have been plotting to move to Denver next year based on my exploratory trip to the city in 2014, but this discussion is giving me some pause. I'll need to do more homework. This has been a helpful debate. Then again, proximity to mountains and a decent climate is probably of equal or greater importance compared to urban living.

[bcp]

Ryan - if you're seriously looking at this...let me know if i can help. A few other points to sway you if needed

- three train SYSTEMS here...oh the fotos...
- 40 highrises U/C...oh the fotos
- lots of modeling agencies and advertising..oh the fotos.. (scratch that, you're engaged man!!)

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I think it all boils down to how you live. As Bunt said, eggs have to cost a LOT more to justify not moving somewhere else. I'm not going to eat and drink out everyday. Let's say I'm saving about $500-800 / month on housing costs alone. I don't think I'm going to be spending that in extra expenses including insurance, etc. Including BCP's point, I won't be driving nearly as much. God knows, I drive a lot in Denver now...

There's always the cost of bribery.

Chicago would be an awesome city to live in, asides from the weather, and it's a lot easier to move now versus later in life (it's a place I've looked at a number of times, but haven't had a ton of luck on the career front there). Plus, it means an epic send-off for Ryan with copious amounts of beer....

I have heard that if you do live in Chicago proper that you do have to factor in the cost of private school for your kids because the public school system ranks somewhere between crap and pure shit. So that could be where the money you save on housing goes.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I think what you mean is that your personal definition of "quality of life" relies less heavily on urban qualities and more heavily on weather than some people here. I reject the notion that "quality of life" means only sunny skies. We all define "quality of life" differently.

San Diego's nickname is America's Finest City. Every time I hear that I have to laugh. Good weather does not a fine city make.