An American Suburb, 2018

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

(dolton is 80% black)

Actually, dolton was 91% black in 2010, and it will almost certainly be >95% black by the end of this decade.

In 1970 dolton was >95% white. A nearly complete racial inversion in 50 years.

Dolton, like so many other inner ring south suburbs, is a story of white flight more than it is a story of anything else.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by 333609543

This thread is going to devolve into another Chicago vs Toronto shit flinging fest.
Don't feed the trolls if you believe them to be trolls.

In the article its stated that the bus has a 30 - 50 minute headway with an hour + commute into Chicago
Not exactly what I'd call proximity to good transit (which is usually what drives up prices).
From what I can tell, Dolton died primarily due to 2 factors: the industrial base it was reliant on mostly vacated, and the huge delays caused by the level crossings give people no reason to live there because their commute into Chicago could be brought to a standstill. I'd say the industrial base leaving locally would be the catalyst for the level crossings being a major problem as residents sought to commute after their local jobs left Dolton.

This seems very much like poor design as much as the typical 'small town in the rustbelt' story

I guess that's people taking the Pace bus to the Red Line terminal. At least the bus is mostly express from Dolton, but it would be more useful if it were more frequent.

The Metra Electric commuter rail stops in adjacent Riverdale, with morning expresses reaching the Loop in about half an hour. But the problem is that the types of people living in Dolton probably don't work 9-5 office jobs in the Loop but rather industrial or retail jobs in scattered locations that are not necessarily transit accessible at all.

If all of Calumet/Thornton township merged it would be a city of about 188k in 53 square miles, which would be much more reasonable to provide services for. Although some towns are split between townships and I imagine e.g. that the portion of Homewood in Thornton wouldn't want to join.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Actually, dolton was 91% black in 2010, and it will almost certainly be >95% black by the end of this decade.

In 1970 dolton was >95% white. A nearly complete racial inversion in 50 years.

Dolton, like so many other inner ring south suburbs, is a story of white flight more than it is a story of anything else.

Maybe black people displaced from Austin and other gentrifying Chicago hoods can consider dolton.

These houses are around 50$ per sq foot. Seems a good investment...

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Maybe black people displaced from Austin and other gentrifying Chicago hoods can consider dolton.

Austin?

Gentrifying?

[dc_denizen]

Gentrification is heading west, aldermen say:

http://mobile.austinweeklynews.com/N...alderman-says/

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Actually, dolton was 91% black in 2010, and it will almost certainly be >95% black by the end of this decade.

In 1970 dolton was >95% white. A nearly complete racial inversion in 50 years.

Dolton, like so many other inner ring south suburbs, is a story of white flight more than it is a story of anything else.

Always feels exotic to me the way Americans must self-segregate like this. So weird. The weirdest part is, both these groups are culturally very American; they like the same things, have the same lifestyles; etc. They'd be totally compatible, except they don't have the same skin pigmentation.

On a related note, these racial inversions, if you can forecast and ride the wave the correct way, are a great way to profit from real estate. My highest relative gains ever in 15 years in this business were in a neighborhood that, back in 2011-2012 when we began in this area of FL, was homogeneous black (and really really cheap, despite being well located), and is now "open to all".

[dc_denizen]

But you have the SAME THING in Canada!

Toronto suburbs are extremely segregated by race and ethnicity!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Gentrification is heading west, aldermen say:

http://mobile.austinweeklynews.com/N...alderman-says/

Burnett is playing to the fears of his base.

Austin is not currently gentrifying.

It may one day, but we are not there yet. Not by a long shot.

[dc_denizen]

Time to buy!

(Crime is an overrated factor. The groundwork for DCs gentrification was laid when the murder rate in the city was 2x that of Chicago’s current one)

[dc_denizen]

What really amazes me is how immobile people claim to be.

If Garfield park or Austin housing costs are getting too high, why not consider dolton?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Time to buy!

Possibly. It might not be the worst bet in the world, but be prepared for a very long game.

In chicago, gentrification goes after the low hanging fruit of latino neighborhoods first, and there are A LOT of those to go around.

It might be tempting to look at DC and say, "oh, these violent black neighborhoods in DC gentrified really quickly, so the same thing will happen in chicago", but I'm afraid that chicago, at 227 sq. miles, exists at a very different scale than DC. The turnover has and will happen much slower here in chicago. And it's gonna still be a good long while before there are ever any serious gentrification inroads made all the way out in austin, regardless of alderman burnett's fear mongering.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by lio45

Always feels exotic to me the way Americans must self-segregate like this. So weird. The weirdest part is, both these groups are culturally very American; they like the same things, have the same lifestyles; etc. They'd be totally compatible, except they don't have the same skin pigmentation.

It's not self-segregating, it's white Americans getting up and running as soon as they sniff the slightest bit of melanin in the air.

It's more toxic and destructive than exotic.

[dc_denizen]

If Austin had the crime rate and school ratings of oak park, and the exact same demographics as it does today, I think people of all races would be beating down the doors to live there.

[DePaul Bunyan]

Originally Posted by The North One

It's not self-segregating, it's white Americans getting up and running as soon as they sniff the slightest bit of melanin in the air.

It's more toxic and destructive than exotic.

So you're telling me that crime and the quality of public schools has nothing to do with it?

[The North One]

Originally Posted by DePaul Bunyan

So you're telling me that crime and the quality of public schools has nothing to do with it?

Oh course they do, those are symptoms of segregation and systematic oppression. Things that happen after the racist white people lose their shit and leave.

[brian_b]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

If all of Calumet/Thornton township merged it would be a city of about 188k in 53 square miles, which would be much more reasonable to provide services for. Although some towns are split between townships and I imagine e.g. that the portion of Homewood in Thornton wouldn't want to join.

Especially in the south suburbs of Chicago, municipal consolidation is really the only solution. These are very small cities that are running the full suite of services and they can't afford it anymore. Property taxes are extremely high compared to home values (as mentioned in the article, Dolton is nearly 4x that of Chicago) and much of the money is squandered by very poor management, not to mention corruption and graft.

The best thing that could happen to Dolton is to get annexed into Chicago, but I can't think of any reason that Chicago would want to do so. Perhaps that could lead to getting paid back their water money, I suppose.

[the urban politician]

Chicago will never annex the lower income south burbs.

The best way for these communities to benefit from annexation is for them to annex each other. I can see a new city called South Chicago emerging, perhaps being Illinois' second largest city, and being majority black

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

It might be tempting to look at DC and say, "oh, these violent black neighborhoods in DC gentrified really quickly, so the same thing will happen in chicago", but I'm afraid that chicago, at 227 sq. miles, exists at a very different scale than DC. The turnover has and will happen much slower here in chicago. And it's gonna still be a good long while before there are ever any serious gentrification inroads made all the way out in austin, regardless of alderman burnett's fear mongering.

I agree with this.

D.C. is not Chicago.

Not all gang ridden black 'hoods all gentrify into the next Starbucks, craft beer sippin' hipster hotspots. D.C. hoods had the behemoth federal government pumping out billions before, during and after the Great Recession. DC was flourishing while the rest of America suffered.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Your interpretation of isaidso's post is way off of what he actually wrote. Some of the details are a bit suspect, but the nodal model he's describing is accurate. Hint: it's not just happening in "newer sprawl", it's happening all over the GTA including in the city itself.

Inaccurate and irrelevant. Toronto's transit ridership has been dropping, basically same as everywhere else in NA.

Originally Posted by Mister F

You're the one who brought up Mississauga. Toronto is just as relevant to isaidso's point as any suburban municipality.

Again, inaccurate and irrelevant. And again, I didn't bring up Mississauga. The claim was about new construction, not general ridership in suburbia.

Originally Posted by Mister F

The middle class in the Toronto CMA includes household incomes ranging from $35-147K. That's exactly who owns (and rents) most of the condos in the GTA. I'm not sure why you find this so hard to believe.

That's great, and irrelevent. We're talking new construction luxury towers, not average condos, which will obviously be occupied by average earners.

Originally Posted by Mister F

More like a Crawford vs reasonable people shit flinging fest

You're projecting (again).

[10023]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

What really amazes me is how immobile people claim to be.

If Garfield park or Austin housing costs are getting too high, why not consider dolton?

Commute? Housing stock? The fact that it’s like 5x as far from downtown as either of those places?