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  #2461  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 2:01 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kenmore View Post
how many time have you typed out a variation of this totally real anecdote?
Spend some time with NYC metro people. I've had variations of that interaction more times than I can count. They think it's basically Bartertown out here but cold.
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  #2462  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 2:36 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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We’ve discussed it many times, it’s true, but that’s because compared to some of Chicago’s problems (cold weather, deindustrialization, etc), this is one item that Chicago can change but has chosen not to.

For whatever reason, local leaders have chosen not to go all out in marketing the city to more than just goddamn Iowa and Michigan. They either don’t see the value in it or, quite possibly, benefit from not much of the world paying attention to the goings on in this city (cough corruption cough Madigan cough cough). Instead of looking the other way, maybe just don’t look at all?
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  #2463  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 3:03 PM
sixo1 sixo1 is offline
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Are there any tech companies outside of the west coast that have an unofficial second HQ in Chicago (i.e., second most employees after the company's HQ)? Besides Amazon, Apple, and Google, what about Expedia, Facebook, Salesforce, and others? Salesforce will have a significant presence in Chicago.
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  #2464  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 3:19 PM
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We’ve discussed it many times, it’s true, but that’s because compared to some of Chicago’s problems (cold weather, deindustrialization, etc), this is one item that Chicago can change but has chosen not to.

For whatever reason, local leaders have chosen not to go all out in marketing the city to more than just goddamn Iowa and Michigan. They either don’t see the value in it or, quite possibly, benefit from not much of the world paying attention to the goings on in this city (cough corruption cough Madigan cough cough). Instead of looking the other way, maybe just don’t look at all?
We have discussed this topic many times.... maybe too many times.

I don't know.... I sort of feel like respect isn't some inalienable right, and what's special isn't always self evident. Respect is earned; not automatically given. If people don't know much about Chicago, that's the fault of the city.

But what you're suggesting... a marketing campaign..... I'm not so sure.
That could be sort of cringe-worthy, and reek of desperation. What's more, I don't feel like local leaders or anyone else for that matter have let the national perception be that we're just another Midwestern flyover location. I mean, be honest. All of us have traveled to other parts of the US and other countries around the planet. And when asked where you're from, it's pretty rare that people don't know something about Chicago. I just got back from Costa Rica, and when asked by hotel staff and other guest about where I was from, they usually said something like "oh... I love Chicago... I was there for X convention...." or "Ah... the Windy city.." among many other comments.

Look. I get it. My daughter is an NYU student. And when she first arrived in New York, people that started following her Instagram account would sometimes ask her what part of the city she had taken some photos. And when she'd say they were taken in Chicago, it definitely surprised them, not realizing how urban Chicago is. But I honestly think that's mostly a phenomenon among younger people; people who don't have any reason to go to Chicago, and overall still don't have much life experience. But if you're a US citizen over 40, and still don't know anything about Chicago... then you're just plain uninformed.
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  #2465  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 3:49 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
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What's wrong with a marketing campaign? Florida leaders heavily promote Florida to business leaders. Leaders in Dallas, Atlanta, and Denver do the same. Even NYC does it. Most recently $2.8b+ times...Seems to be working for them. I do agree it'll be interesting to see if anti-trust laws shake up the tech landscape.
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  #2466  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 3:51 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by rgolch View Post
We have discussed this topic many times.... maybe too many times.

I don't know.... I sort of feel like respect isn't some inalienable right, and what's special isn't always self evident. Respect is earned; not automatically given. If people don't know much about Chicago, that's the fault of the city.

But what you're suggesting... a marketing campaign..... I'm not so sure.
That could be sort of cringe-worthy, and reek of desperation. What's more, I don't feel like local leaders or anyone else for that matter have let the national perception be that we're just another Midwestern flyover location. I mean, be honest. All of us have traveled to other parts of the US and other countries around the planet. And when asked where you're from, it's pretty rare that people don't know something about Chicago. I just got back from Costa Rica, and when asked by hotel staff and other guest about where I was from, they usually said something like "oh... I love Chicago... I was there for X convention...." or "Ah... the Windy city.." among many other comments.

Look. I get it. My daughter is an NYU student. And when she first arrived in New York, people that started following her Instagram account would sometimes ask her what part of the city she had taken some photos. And when she'd say they were taken in Chicago, it definitely surprised them, not realizing how urban Chicago is. But I honestly think that's mostly a phenomenon among younger people; people who don't have any reason to go to Chicago, and overall still don't have much life experience. But if you're a US citizen over 40, and still don't know anything about Chicago... then you're just plain uninformed.
Great post, and I totally agree that there is a bit of whining going on here. Chicago is a huge city and an old one (relatively), and most Americans obviously know it's here and important. But perceptions need to be cultivated on a continual basis. There is nothing desperate about marketing, it's already been established that NYC and SF way outspend Chicago in international marketing, so it's not a sign of desperation for Chicago to at least match them, particularly in the international niche where we are weakest.

We also have to accept that recent decisions may have less to do with Chicago being "invisible" and that there must be an inherent value to a NYC location. All things equal, 1000 jobs in Chicago vs 1000 jobs in NYC, even with similar skill sets, from the perspective of Amazon executives there is something more valuable to parking those jobs just outside of Manhattan. This company is trying to get somebody's attention--trying to be part of a greater conversation. That's just something you will not get by putting those jobs in Chicago, or most other major American cities.
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  #2467  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 4:12 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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^ Crain's had an article yesterday or the day before that Chicago was a top 5 finalist for Amazon.
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  #2468  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 4:16 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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Things are more nuanced than just how big you are. Seattle's success in this space goes back to the 80s with Microsoft and Nintendo, which then attracted other companies and formed others as time went on. Austin goes back to the 80s with companies like Dell and then later just attracted expansions. Austin is good but also overrated in terms of things like startups - guess it depends on what you want. DC has tons of government contractors who started their own things too. LA has been big on video game development since the late 80s or early 90s. Boston goes back to bio medical.

You should think beyond size and what should be. That's really not how it works no matter how much everyone wants to believe it. I think Chicago and midwest in general has a lot more talent (which is very hard to measure) than most people realize (you need to understand just how many people in Silicon Valley are from the midwest - it's not a small number at all). I think the issue with Chicago is more marketing - it's been the problem for a long time. Chicago's marketing sucks and it's only recently that it's attracted some of these fairly major expansions. You can't compare it to Seattle, Austin, etc - they've been getting this stuff since the 80s and 90s. NYC has done a good job of playing catchup and that's basically just in the last decade only, but NYC has excellent marketing. Most cities are playing catchup as these other places have had a few decades head start on a lot of people and have kept it going.

Again, most people just assume Chicago is flyover country, there's nothing there, and/or it's not nice. It's about marketing. I can't tell you how many times I've met people visiting who have the same reaction of "WHO KNEW!?" or just showing people here at my office in NYC street view of Chicago. They're always like "I just assumed there was nothing there and it wasn't nice." That actually happened today when talking to someone and I told her I moved to NYC 2 years ago from Chicago. She said "wow that must have been a big change" - She's never been to Chicago and I told her no, because Chicago is not hugely different as far as lifestyle goes from NYC (at least my lifestyle). Showed her some coastline pic of Chicago and she said "nice - is that Florida?" and when I said it was Chicago she just said "wtf?" - showed her more streetviews "Wow, I never knew Chicago was this nice..." It's all about marketing and sometimes this trickles down to companies who should be doing their homework better than normal people like you and me, but they don't always.

The 2 things holding Chicago back is basically how everyone thinks it's -20 degrees in the winter and reports of crime on the news. People in various parts of the coasts kind of have a self importance and think there's nothing worth visiting outside of that. Which is funny because the same people claim to be cultured and knowledgeable, but yet don't know shit beyond a few places in the US. Some others are those from the midwest who grew up in small towns, who basically write off everything midwest including Chicago (even though they don't know about it in reality because they grew up in Iowa never having actually visited Chicago) and want to act cool for their "cultured" coastal peers, so they trash talk everything and say there's nothing worth going to in the midwest. So they assume Chicago too. Unfortunately these types of people are sometimes running the companies you want expansions from.
No offense, but it sounds like you hang around a bunch of idiots...You seriously know AMERICANS who had no idea what is going on in Chicago?! CHICAGO?! Seems rather odd, we mush interact with completely different people on a day to day.

EDIT: Read your next few posts, but still seems odd we have such different experiences with other humans and their perception of Chicago.
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  #2469  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 5:02 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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^ I lived in New York, and there is a lot of provincialism there (like anywhere else, really). So I'm not surprised
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  #2470  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 5:14 PM
Investing In Chicago Investing In Chicago is offline
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^ I lived in New York, and there is a lot of provincialism there (like anywhere else, really). So I'm not surprised
I suppose. I grew up in Manhattan and have spent 31 of my 36 years on this earth there, and my experience has been completely different. I moved to Chicago, so this conversation comes up quite a bit for me and the New Yorkers I interact with on a regular basis.

I just have a hard time believing (presumably) educated Americans would be so ignorant about the third largest city in their home Country. Perhaps my standard for people is too high.
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  #2471  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 5:35 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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^ Crain's had an article yesterday or the day before that Chicago was a top 5 finalist for Amazon.
What were the top 5? I can't see Crains articles. Again, the perception of crime was a concern to Amazon. Most people outside of Chicago I talk to are scarred of the crime, they say how can you live there with all the shootings ect. The city really needs an all out War on Crime here, to shake this perception. That's the first thing people think of when I mention Chicago, whether that's fair or not, it's the perception. Bring in the National Guard!
All cities in Italy I went to had Army guys with machine guns walking around the downtown. I felt safer knowing they were around.
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  #2472  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 5:52 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago View Post
No offense, but it sounds like you hang around a bunch of idiots...You seriously know AMERICANS who had no idea what is going on in Chicago?! CHICAGO?! Seems rather odd, we mush interact with completely different people on a day to day.

EDIT: Read your next few posts, but still seems odd we have such different experiences with other humans and their perception of Chicago.
You need to meet more people who have never lived in the Midwest and never even visited chicago. That's tons of people from all around the world. People who know Chicago take it for granted. People know about Chicago around the world but it's usually because of the Bulls/MJ, Al Capone, or crime...and sometimes the Bean too.

Americans on the coast are by and large not any smarter than anyone else. Their knowledge is just different. Chicago is not on a lot of people's radars for one reason or another. You'd be shocked. I have had a lot of these experiences because I have 2 friends who are or were senior management consultants at Accenture who would teach a few 2 week courses per year in St. Charles to other consultants based all around the world. My friends were based in Paris and DC too, not Chicago. Since most of these were international people taking the courses, they would stay the weekend in downtown Chicago. Usually it was their first real in person exposure to Chicago and I'd hang out with my friends, who would be hanging about with these people. Every single time and nearly every single one of them were like "wow not what I expected at all."

I have some older coworkers who went once or twice, but not since the early 90s and that's what their view of the city is. A lot of others at my office have never been and their idea about it is 100% shaped by the media. This has been my experience with many Americans. I think your standards are too high. Most people actually aren't that well educated when it comes to these things. But you can't blame them. If they've never been to Chicago and don't care to look it up, then what do they have to go with? Media, movies, and word of mouth.
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  #2473  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 5:59 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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No offense, but it sounds like you hang around a bunch of idiots...You seriously know AMERICANS who had no idea what is going on in Chicago?! CHICAGO?! Seems rather odd, we mush interact with completely different people on a day to day.

EDIT: Read your next few posts, but still seems odd we have such different experiences with other humans and their perception of Chicago.
You need to meet more people who have never lived in the Midwest and never even visited chicago. That's tons of people from all around the world. People who know Chicago take it for granted. People know about Chicago around the world but it's usually because of the Bulls/MJ, all Capone, or crime...and sometimes the Bean too.

Americans on the coast are by and large not any smarter than anyone else. Their knowledge is just different. Chicago is not on a lot of people's radars for one reason or another. You'd be shocked. I have had a lot of these experiences because I have 2 friends who are or were senior management consultants at Accenture who would teach a few 2 week courses per year in St. Charles to other consultants based all around the world. My friends were based in Paris and DC too, not Chicago. Since most of these were international people taking the courses, they would stay the weekend in downtown Chicago. Usually it was their first real in person exposure to Chicago and I'd hang out with my friends, who would be hanging about with these people. Every single time and nearly every single one of them were like "wow not what I expected at all."

I have some older coworkers who went once or twice, but not since the early 90s and that's what their view of the city is. A lot of others at my office have never been and their idea about it is 100% shaped by the media. That's been by experience with other Americans who never went to Chicago. It's shaped by media, movies, tv, etc. You can't blame them though. Most people aren't interested in looking these things up themselves.
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  #2474  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 6:30 PM
Halsted & Villagio Halsted & Villagio is offline
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Things are more nuanced than just how big you are. Seattle's success in this space goes back to the 80s with Microsoft and Nintendo, which then attracted other companies and formed others as time went on. Austin goes back to the 80s with companies like Dell and then later just attracted expansions. Austin is good but also overrated in terms of things like startups - guess it depends on what you want. DC has tons of government contractors who started their own things too. LA has been big on video game development since the late 80s or early 90s. Boston goes back to bio medical.

You should think beyond size and what should be. That's really not how it works no matter how much everyone wants to believe it. I think Chicago and midwest in general has a lot more talent (which is very hard to measure) than most people realize (you need to understand just how many people in Silicon Valley are from the midwest - it's not a small number at all). I think the issue with Chicago is more marketing - it's been the problem for a long time. Chicago's marketing sucks and it's only recently that it's attracted some of these fairly major expansions. You can't compare it to Seattle, Austin, etc - they've been getting this stuff since the 80s and 90s. NYC has done a good job of playing catchup and that's basically just in the last decade only, but NYC has excellent marketing. Most cities are playing catchup as these other places have had a few decades head start on a lot of people and have kept it going.

Again, most people just assume Chicago is flyover country, there's nothing there, and/or it's not nice. It's about marketing. I can't tell you how many times I've met people visiting who have the same reaction of "WHO KNEW!?" or just showing people here at my office in NYC street view of Chicago. They're always like "I just assumed there was nothing there and it wasn't nice." That actually happened today when talking to someone and I told her I moved to NYC 2 years ago from Chicago. She said "wow that must have been a big change" - She's never been to Chicago and I told her no, because Chicago is not hugely different as far as lifestyle goes from NYC (at least my lifestyle). Showed her some coastline pic of Chicago and she said "nice - is that Florida?" and when I said it was Chicago she just said "wtf?" - showed her more streetviews "Wow, I never knew Chicago was this nice..." It's all about marketing and sometimes this trickles down to companies who should be doing their homework better than normal people like you and me, but they don't always.

The 2 things holding Chicago back is basically how everyone thinks it's -20 degrees in the winter and reports of crime on the news. People in various parts of the coasts kind of have a self importance and think there's nothing worth visiting outside of that. Which is funny because the same people claim to be cultured and knowledgeable, but yet don't know shit beyond a few places in the US. Some others are those from the midwest who grew up in small towns, who basically write off everything midwest including Chicago (even though they don't know about it in reality because they grew up in Iowa never having actually visited Chicago) and want to act cool for their "cultured" coastal peers, so they trash talk everything and say there's nothing worth going to in the midwest. So they assume Chicago too. Unfortunately these types of people are sometimes running the companies you want expansions from.
I am going to run something by you guys that I ask you guys to give serious consideration to before denouncing it as poppycock. But what about if Chicago, and cities/states in the upper mid-west, put together something to re-name the region. I mean, this whole "mid-west thing" seems to be a bit of an albatross around Chicago's neck. Furthermore, I have never considered myself a mid-westerner and I know many Chicagoan's who feel the exact same way. I remember being shocked, as a kid, the first time I found out that Chicago was in the mid-west. I mean, really, how much does Chicago really have in common with Oklahoma? Kansas? Iowa? Nebraska? Even Indiana or Ohio? It seems that the further North you go in the mid-west that whole region takes on a more cultured vibe, whereas the lower you go, and further west you go, it seems a bit more rural, farmer, hick vibe.

Before you say, "no way" consider this.... technically Texas could be considered the mid-west by the same definition used to encompass Chicago in the mid-west. And then consider how Texas would fight tooth and nail against such a notion and how Texas has seemingly carved out its own distinct area separate and apart from being considered in the "deep south". And look at how California has been considering dividing itself up into 3 distinct areas - No Cal, Cal, So Cal - I believe thats how it goes. Also consider how Indiana has gone to an Eastern Time Zone when they are clearly not an eastern state. Done to further business and to create an air of prestige and how it seems to be working for them as they have ticked up a bit as a state since going to that change.

I haven't really thought it through but I would imagine you could take the Great Lakes Region and give it its own name.... include the Chicago area, the Milwaukee area, Minneapolis, Michigan and upper Ohio areas... possibly even Toronto. It would take a while for that label/name to stick but in time, it would become a part of the everyday lexicon of Americans and would be more in line with the true values and ideals of Chicagoans. Moreover, such a change would shake off some of the negatives that are commonly associated with being considered in the "mid-west".

Something like this would likely take years and would be a huge initiative but in the long run I think the benefit would outweigh the cost. It can be done.

Just a thought.
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  #2475  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 6:45 PM
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just use one of the other regional monikers, rust belt and great lakes both work
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  #2476  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Halsted & Villagio View Post
I am going to run something by you guys that I ask you guys to give serious consideration to before denouncing it as poppycock. But what about if Chicago, and cities/states in the upper mid-west, put together something to re-name the region. I mean, this whole "mid-west thing" seems to be a bit of an albatross around Chicago's neck. Furthermore, I have never considered myself a mid-westerner and I know many Chicagoan's who feel the exact same way. I remember being shocked, as a kid, the first time I found out that Chicago was in the mid-west. I mean, really, how much does Chicago really have in common with Oklahoma? Kansas? Iowa? Nebraska? Even Indiana or Ohio? It seems that the further North you go in the mid-west that whole region takes on a more cultured vibe, whereas the lower you go, and further west you go, it seems a bit more rural, farmer, hick vibe.

Before you say, "no way" consider this.... technically Texas could be considered the mid-west by the same definition used to encompass Chicago in the mid-west. And then consider how Texas would fight tooth and nail against such a notion and how Texas has seemingly carved out its own distinct area separate and apart from being considered in the "deep south". And look at how California has been considering dividing itself up into 3 distinct areas - No Cal, Cal, So Cal - I believe thats how it goes. Also consider how Indiana has gone to an Eastern Time Zone when they are clearly not an eastern state. Done to further business and to create an air of prestige and how it seems to be working for them as they have ticked up a bit as a state since going to that change.

I haven't really thought it through but I would imagine you could take the Great Lakes Region and give it its own name.... include the Chicago area, the Milwaukee area, Minneapolis, Michigan and upper Ohio areas... possibly even Toronto. It would take a while for that label/name to stick but in time, it would become a part of the everyday lexicon of Americans and would be more in line with the true values and ideals of Chicagoans. Moreover, such a change would shake off some of the negatives that are commonly associated with being considered in the "mid-west".

Something like this would likely take years and would be a huge initiative but in the long run I think the benefit would outweigh the cost. It can be done.

Just a thought.
Again, too much emphasis on the belief that outside perceptions are an anchor on our success.

It does play a role, for sure. But it's not the main issue. If we're really of the belief that Amazon, Apple, Salesforce, and Google are our roads for success, then we truly are a second rate city. It'd certainly be great if we could grow our local tech presence. But I don't think a thriving tech scene is a panacea for city health. We have so many legacy problems that go beyond whether we're consider "one of the cool kids" cities in the country. Not that we can't multitask; but dealing with rampant corruption, massive debt, and crime in minority neighborhoods should take precedence over a rebranding campaign. If we get those in order, my feeling is that success will follow. And sends a message far better than marketing. Unfortunately, I think things are going to get worse before they get better.
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  #2477  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 7:03 PM
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Didn't Milwaukee's mayor try to popularize the "Fresh Coast" moniker? I kind of like it. Or maybe "Central Coast."
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  #2478  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 7:13 PM
chicubs111 chicubs111 is offline
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Again, too much emphasis on the belief that outside perceptions are an anchor on our success.

It does play a role, for sure. But it's not the main issue. If we're really of the belief that Amazon, Apple, Salesforce, and Google are our roads for success, then we truly are a second rate city. It'd certainly be great if we could grow our local tech presence. But I don't think a thriving tech scene is a panacea for city health. We have so many legacy problems that go beyond whether we're consider "one of the cool kids" cities in the country. Not that we can't multitask; but dealing with rampant corruption, massive debt, and crime in minority neighborhoods should take precedence over a rebranding campaign. If we get those in order, my feeling is that success will follow. And sends a message far better than marketing. Unfortunately, I think things are going to get worse before they get better.
The rebranding campaign and the tackling of the issues you just mentioned go hand in hand...a "safe" Chicago (having similar crime rates to that of NYC and LA) would without a doubt give people more confidence to start up more businesses here (perception and reality are blurred unfortunately) ...especially the major players like amazon or apple which can single handley make such a significant impact on our tech scene...which in the current world we live in is extremely important. We need to adapt with the times and currently Tech is the place to be so we need to step up our tech game. With the abundance of talent this city has there is no reason we shouldn't be right there competing with NYC. I hate to get into this competition with NYC that always seems to rear its head in Chicago forums but its the bar we should raise ourselves to aim for while still maintaining our own personality as a city.
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  #2479  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 7:18 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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I am going to run something by you guys that I ask you guys to give serious consideration to before denouncing it as poppycock.
^ Not poppycock at all.

In fact, I have pressed for this idea on this forum for years.

Chicago and the areas around it should market themselves to the world as the "Great Lakes region", because that is exactly what this region is.
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  #2480  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2018, 7:25 PM
Halsted & Villagio Halsted & Villagio is offline
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^ Not poppycock at all.

In fact, I have pressed for this idea on this forum for years.

Chicago and the areas around it should market themselves to the world as the "Great Lakes region", because that is exactly what this region is.
Agreed. Another example that we could follow would be the cluster of "Great Northwest" states.... otherwise referred to as the "Pacific Northwest" -- Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Wyoming, with some sources including Alaska.
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