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  #41  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 2:35 PM
nei nei is offline
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From ACS 5-year survey data. Household surveys, so only includes cars owned by residents unlike some other data shown. First number is cars per 1000 residents, second cars per 1000 residents aged 18 and older. While car ownership increases with income, states with lots of urban development get lower car ownership (mainly Northeast, California, Hawaii and Illinois). A bit puzzled why Florida is so low. Income does have an effect; poor rural states have a bit lower numbers than better off ones. West Virginia has lower car ownership than the northern Mountain West and Plains.

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  #42  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 3:04 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Florida may be low because so many seniors without vehicles at home (probably no licenses anymore)? Maybe large number of immigrants from the developing world also play a role.

But doesn't translate to high transit use; even South Florida doesn't have particularly high transit use.
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  #43  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 4:17 PM
memph memph is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Florida may be low because so many seniors without vehicles at home (probably no licenses anymore)? Maybe large number of immigrants from the developing world also play a role.

But doesn't translate to high transit use; even South Florida doesn't have particularly high transit use.
And seniors that aren't car free will often still have only one car for a couple rather than two. You only really need two cars if you're still commuting.

Here's a map of cars per adult (16+) in Toronto.



So income and transit quality are both factors. For example, Midtown Toronto has lower rates of car ownership than King, Burlington, Caledon or Oakville (all fairly wealthy suburbs). However, Midtown and Central and South Etobicoke have higher rates of car ownership than other parts of Toronto that have similar or even poorer transit access. You can see an "arc" of lower car ownership going from NW Toronto and some adjacent parts of Peel to NE Toronto/Scarborough and adjacent parts of Markham... but that's not where the subways go. The subway lines go North and W/SW. Rather, that NW to NE arc follows the more working class areas of Toronto (and its suburbs).
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  #44  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 4:39 PM
nei nei is offline
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Comparing your Toronto map to my New York City one, most of New York City near a subway line has under 0.4 cars per adult. Forest Hills, Kew Gardens and Woodhaven appear to be the biggest exceptions, perhaps because they're further out and surrounded by more car-oriented neighborhoods? Only a part of downtown Toronto is under 0.4 cars per adult and much of NYC near Manhattan (NW Brooklyn & Queens, West Bronx) is close to almost half that at 0.2. The inner areas of Boston look similar to Toronto but the band of suburban areas at around 0.7 is smaller

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  #45  
Old Posted May 30, 2016, 5:56 PM
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New York's core has very little off-street parking though, and much of the housing stock was built pre-WWII, and there's no back alleys.

Toronto's core has more parking available, since it's a mix of rowhouses (low density by NYC standards) with back alleys for parking, in addition to on-street parking, plus post-WWII highrise apartments and condos built during an era of parking requirements. The new condos should reduce car ownership a little based on how much parking they have, but I would say on average they still have more than 0.2 spaces per adult (maybe 0.3-0.35?).

Also the downtown ward with the highest car ownership (ward 27) includes Rosedale, Moore Park and half of Summerhill in addition to most of the northern part of Downtown. Those neighbourhoods are mostly SFHs with suburban-like available of parking and very wealthy, so they probably have quite high car ownership. Transit and walkability in Moore Park and parts of Rosedale isn't all that great either.

The neighbourhoods west of Downtown still have car ownership rates in the range of 0.35-0.45 per adult. Those are located between Bathurst and Keele, with the railway that's just north of Dupont as the northern boundary. I would say they're fairly similar to Queens, mostly rowhouses, with some parts served by subways but not completely (with streetcars filling the gaps instead of buses), although much of Queens is further from downtown.
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  #46  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 9:30 AM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
In Europe, does the high cost of gas deter people from getting cars or does everyone just switch to diesel? Every time I'm there, I rarely see a gas car. Always diesel? Is there a reason gas is so expensive there versus the U.S.?
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Both gas and cars and much more expensive in Europe than in the U.S. Salaries are also somewhat lower.

Combine that with much better transit and it's obvious why transit share is generally higher in Europe.
The reason gasoline is more expensive is simple, more tax. In the UK at the moment I'm paying £1.07 per litre which is $5.92 per US gallon. There is 20% VAT on fuel like most other products so without VAT it would be £0.89/litre ($4.93/US gallon), and then unlike most products there is a specific duty of £0.58/litre on both diesel and petrol, without that you are down to £0.31/litre ($1.74/US gallon). Many European countries tax diesel more lightly making it cheaper than gasoline which encourages people to buy diesel cars, in the UK both are taxed at the same rate and the split between diesel and petrol engined vehicles is roughly 50/50.

Europeans probably don't spend 3x as much on fuel though even if it is 3x as expensive, they choose more economical vehicles on average, either diesels or small-engine gasoline cars which can also get 50mpg+, the way cities are built means distances driven day to day are shorter and also intercity road trips to the next town or city are usually shorter than in most of North America.

I wouldn't exaggerate the differences in car ownership and usage between Western Europe and the US, in every West European country car use makes up the large majority of miles travelled, there are a few % more people living in dense urban environments where there are more practical options and owning a car can be a hassle but still the big majority of households in Western Europe own cars and don't live in places like central Paris/London or Venice.

I don't think cost of buying a car being more expensive than North America puts people off buying one if they need one although it may affect the choice of vehicle, you can buy a car to suit any budget, from £500 to £500,000 and in the rural areas where having a car is a necessity or at least it's a big inconvenience if you don't have one then virtually all households have a car, even the low income ones. As you get into more urban areas then low income households and others may well choose not to have a car as it's not such a necessity and the money saved can increase living standards by having more to spend elsewhere. Then when you get to the really urban areas owning a car can be more hassle than not owning one due to scarce parking, narrow streets, congestion etc.

Here's an interactive map of England & Wales showing figures on the % of households not owning a car by locality and the average number of cars per household, data from the 2011 census.

https://fusiontables.googleuserconte...mplt=2&hml=KML

As you can see in the most rural areas, even poorer ones, only 5-10% of households don't have a car, sometimes it's as low as 3-4% which is probably just elderly and other people unable to drive for physical/medical reasons, pretty much everybody else has at least one car in the household.

But move into even small towns and villages or suburbs of mid-sized towns and that often jumps up to 15-20% as walking/cycling to get around becomes more practical and there are better bus/train services for getting beyond the town people live in. Go into the centres of mid-sized towns and small cities and some more suburban areas of larger cities and you will commonly find neighbourhoods where 20-50% of households don't have cars as more and more stuff becomes accessible without a vehicle and parking/congestion starts to become an issue. Then go into the inner areas of the larger cities and you will find a lot of areas where 40-65% of households don't have cars, rising to 70% and even 80% in a few areas of Central London.

Last edited by Jonesy55; May 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM.
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  #47  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 5:25 PM
memph memph is offline
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That's still a relatively significant difference in car ownership levels between the UK and the US (and Canada). While most British neighbourhoods will still need to accommodate cars, there's a sufficiently large % of car free households that they need to be taken into account. In many American cities and suburbs, it's often assumed that basically every family owns a car, even among the poor, the majority will probably own a car. So it's no surprise to see neighbourhoods that have ridiculously auto-oriented designs compared to the UK.
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  #48  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 5:34 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
That's still a relatively significant difference in car ownership levels between the UK and the US (and Canada). While most British neighbourhoods will still need to accommodate cars, there's a sufficiently large % of car free households that they need to be taken into account. In many American cities and suburbs, it's often assumed that basically every family owns a car, even among the poor, the majority will probably own a car. So it's no surprise to see neighbourhoods that have ridiculously auto-oriented designs compared to the UK.
Isn't that a bit of a chicken/egg question?
Don't almost all suburban families have cars because of the design rather than the other way round?
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  #49  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Isn't that a bit of a chicken/egg question?
Don't almost all suburban families have cars because of the design rather than the other way round?
Well, yeah. Both the auto-oriented design and car ownership rates reinforce each other. I see it as a positive feedback loop, which can go in the other direction too.
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  #50  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 7:41 PM
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Minato Ku Minato Ku is offline
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Household car ownership rate by Region in France (2012)
  • Bretagne: 86.7%
  • Pays de la Loire: 86.7%
  • Aquitaine-Limousin-Poitou-Charentes: 86.4%
  • Corse: 85.8%
  • Centre-Val de Loire: 85,6%
  • Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes: 84.1%
  • France average excluding Paris Region: 84.1%
  • Bourgogne-Franche-Comté: 84.9%
  • Languedoc-Roussillon-Midi-Pyrénées: 84.9%
  • Normandie: 83.9%
  • Alsace-Champagne-Ardenne-Lorraine: 82.9%
  • Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur: 81.0%
  • Nord-Pas-de-Calais-Picardie: 80.4%
  • Metropolitan France: 81.0%
  • France average (excl Mayotte): 80.7%
  • Martinique: 71.8%
  • La Réunion: 70.1%
  • Guadeloupe: 67.8%
  • Paris Region: 67.0%
  • French Guiana: 58.1%

Paris Region
Inside Paris Region disparities are high
  • Seine et Marne: 85.6%
  • Yvelines: 85.3%
  • Essonne: 84.1%
  • Val d'Oise: 80.7%
  • Val de Marne: 69.9%
  • Hauts de Seine: 66.9%
  • Seine Saint Denis: 62.9%
  • City of Paris: 38.0%

Some departments outside of Paris Region with a lot of commuters to Paris.
  • Eure: 87.8%
  • Eure et Loire: 87.2%
  • Oise: 86.3%


The departement with the highest household car ownership rate is Landes with 90.9% in Southweastern France, it is followed by Vandée with 90.8% in Western France.
The departement with the lowest household car ownership rate is the City of Paris with only 38.0%. It is the only departement where the majority of household do not own a car.

Outside the overseas regions, car ownership rate is more linked to the urban structure than the wealth of a departement.
Departements with less than 80% of the household owning a car are all home of big city.
  • Bouches-du-Rhône (Marseille): 78.5%
  • Nord (Lille): 77.7%
  • Alpes-Maritimes (Nice): 77.3%
  • Rhône (Lyon): 76.7%

http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tablea...RD_001#tab_1=2

Note I found data showing a higher household car ownership rate for France (82.8%).
http://www.insee.fr/fr/themes/tablea...id=NATTEF05160
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  #51  
Old Posted May 31, 2016, 8:35 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Minato Ku View Post
Paris Region
Inside Paris Region disparities are high[LIST][*]Seine et Marne: 85.6%[*]Yvelines: 85.3%[*]Essonne: 84.1%[*]Val d'Oise: 80.7%[*]Val de Marne: 69.9%[*]Hauts de Seine: 66.9%[*]Seine Saint Denis: 62.9%[*]City of Paris: 38.0%
The Paris numbers are a bit higher than I expected. In comparison 45% of NYC households have a car, so higher than Paris proper, but in Manhattan, only 23% of households with car, so significantly lower. Adjacent neighborhoods of Brooklyn, Bronx and Queens closest to Manhattan are between 25-40% of households with car.

I would have probably guessed that Paris proper and Manhattan would be roughly comparable in % car free. Instead it seems Paris is more comparable to the more urban parts of Brooklyn/Bronx/Queens.

Where does everyone keep their cars in Paris? In the underground garages on the main avenues? Paris apartment buildings very rarely have parking. Street parking is limited. Rail coverage is possibly denser than anywhere on the planet, so a bit surprising.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2016, 3:09 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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England & Wales as a whole had 75% of households as car owners at the 2011 census, I haven't checked the figures for Scotland and Northern Ireland but I doubt they would be different enough to change the overall UK picture in any significant way.

Looking at those French figures car ownership is higher there at nearly 85%.

Could that be because slightly more French people live in areas far from major metro areas due to lower overall population density? I've been to quite a variety of rural and small town areas around France where bus/train services are very limited, not that it's massively different here in the UK, small towns and villages off the rail network often only get a bus every hour or two to neighbouring towns. If they are on the rail network they are much better connected for carless people.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2016, 3:27 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Could that be because slightly more French people live in areas far from major metro areas due to lower overall population density? I've been to quite a variety of rural and small town areas around France where bus/train services are very limited, not that it's massively different here in the UK, small towns and villages off the rail network often only get a bus every hour or two to neighbouring towns. If they are on the rail network they are much better connected for carless people.
Possibly, but don't you also find the Paris numbers a bit surprising? I mean, Paris probably has the densest urban rail network on the planet, and certainly isn't a car-friendly environment, yet car ownership is higher than I would have expected.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2016, 5:27 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Possibly, but don't you also find the Paris numbers a bit surprising? I mean, Paris probably has the densest urban rail network on the planet, and certainly isn't a car-friendly environment, yet car ownership is higher than I would have expected.
They are a little higher than I would have guessed, but the Paris region is a huge area area of 11m people most of whom live in suburban type environments. I lived for a while in Seine et Marne and despite having an RER line I think most residents, especially families, would find it useful to own a car.

The city of Paris itself only has 38% of households with cars and I'm sure if you look at the inner arrondisements it would be much lower than that.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2016, 10:33 PM
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I have data by arrondissements but for 2006.
In 2006, 42% of Parisian households had a car.
This number is decreasing since the 1990s. In 1990, 52% of Parisian households had a car compared with only 38% in 2012.

There is a real difference between the city of Paris and the outskirts, even the innermost suburbs, where the number of household having a car has increased between 1990 and 2006.
I need more recent data to see if this trends continued.

Household car ownership rate by arrondissement in the City of Paris (2006)
  • 16th arrondissement: 60%
  • 8th arrondissement: 53%
  • 7th arrondissement: 51%
  • 15th arrondissement: 48%
  • 13th arrondissement: 45%
  • 12th arrondissement: 44%
  • 14th arrondissement: 44%
  • 17th arrondissement: 44%
  • 19th arrondissement: 43%
  • City of Paris average : 42%
  • 6th arrondissement: 41%
  • 20th arrondissement: 40%
  • 5th arrondissement: 38%
  • 9th arrondissement: 38%
  • 4th arrondissement: 35%
  • 11th arrondissement: 34%
  • 1st arrondissement: 33%
  • 18th arrondissement: 32%
  • 3rd arrondissement: 31%
  • 10th arrondissement: 31%
  • 2nd arrondissement: 26%
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2016, 2:31 PM
nei nei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato Ku View Post
I have data by arrondissements but for 2006.
In 2006, 42% of Parisian households had a car.
This number is decreasing since the 1990s. In 1990, 52% of Parisian households had a car compared with only 38% in 2012.

There is a real difference between the city of Paris and the outskirts, even the innermost suburbs, where the number of household having a car has increased between 1990 and 2006.
I need more recent data to see if this trends continued.

Household car ownership rate by arrondissement in the City of Paris (2006)
  • 16th arrondissement: 60%
  • 8th arrondissement: 53%
  • 7th arrondissement: 51%
  • 15th arrondissement: 48%
  • 13th arrondissement: 45%
  • 12th arrondissement: 44%
  • 14th arrondissement: 44%
  • 17th arrondissement: 44%
  • 19th arrondissement: 43%
  • City of Paris average : 42%
  • 6th arrondissement: 41%
  • 20th arrondissement: 40%
  • 5th arrondissement: 38%
  • 9th arrondissement: 38%
  • 4th arrondissement: 35%
  • 11th arrondissement: 34%
  • 1st arrondissement: 33%
  • 18th arrondissement: 32%
  • 3rd arrondissement: 31%
  • 10th arrondissement: 31%
  • 2nd arrondissement: 26%
Considering the population density levels, most of these are quite a bit higher than similarly dense NYC neighborhoods. [See my plots and maps in my car ownership thread]. Do many car owners in Paris have off street parking? The Upper East Side has a slightly higher population density than the 11th arrondissement, and only 28% of households own cars. Most other Manhattan neighborhoods are somewhat less dense but have lower car ownership rates. Brooklyn And Queens near Manhattan average around 40% but it's lower density than most of Paris

http://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

the total population of neighborhoods below 40% would probably be slightly higher than Paris

http://www.streetsblog.org/2011/04/0...s-on-the-rise/

Just puzzled how the locals fit all their cars, while the transit system is at least as good if not better than NYC's (especially for getting out of the core). Inner London appears to have similar levels of car ownership to Paris, despite being less dense:

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/technical-...-in-london.pdf

part of it must be the congestion tax, though I suspect the difference wasn't that large pre-congestion tax. I would assume a car is somewhat less useful in Paris than Inner London, and parking more difficult than Paris. Though if many Parisian apartment buildings have been retrofitted with underground parking and London rowhouse have little off-street parking, parking availability may be similar?
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2016, 3:45 PM
emathias emathias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nei View Post
Considering the population density levels, most of these are quite a bit higher than similarly dense NYC neighborhoods. [See my plots and maps in my car ownership thread]. Do many car owners in Paris have off street parking? The Upper East Side has a slightly higher population density than the 11th arrondissement, and only 28% of households own cars. Most other Manhattan neighborhoods are somewhat less dense but have lower car ownership rates. Brooklyn And Queens near Manhattan average around 40% but it's lower density than most of Paris

http://www.nycedc.com/blog-entry/new-yorkers-and-cars

the total population of neighborhoods below 40% would probably be slightly higher than Paris
...

Just puzzled how the locals fit all their cars, while the transit system is at least as good if not better than NYC's (especially for getting out of the core).
...
My guess is that there are a number of factors. First, the size of the average French car is quite small even compared to the size of the average car in Manhattan. Second, I wouldn't be surprised if Manhattan has more public housing that central Paris does - a huge portion of Paris public housing is in the suburbs. This is relevant because it *might* mean that there are relatively fewer low-income people in central Paris who would more naturally be transit-captive. Wealthy and/or high-income people strongly prefer to have a car just because they can. Lending credence to that idea is that the car ownership in the 7th Arr. is 3rd highest, and the 7th is the highest-income area, and the 16th Arr. has the most millionaires, an average income of still over double the average for Paris as a whole, and the highest car ownership rate.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2016, 4:38 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Wealthy and/or high-income people strongly prefer to have a car just because they can. Lending credence to that idea is that the car ownership in the 7th Arr. is 3rd highest, and the 7th is the highest-income area, and the 16th Arr. has the most millionaires, an average income of still over double the average for Paris as a whole, and the highest car ownership rate.
But that doesn't seem to follow in NYC. The Upper East Side, probably the largest concentration of urban wealth anywhere on the planet, has a low car ownership rate, only slightly higher than the rate for Manhattan as a whole. The UES is probably the closest U.S. equivalent to Paris' 7th arrondissement.

And the UES has only one low income housing project and has a fairly large amount of parking facilities, at least for Manhattan standards (because a lot of UES housing was built between the 1950's and 1970's, when parking restrictions were looser than today; obviously prior to the 1950's there was no parking because it wasn't needed).

While underground garages in highrise residentials aren't the norm in Manhattan, they are common in towers built from the 1950's-1970's. The UES has the greatest concentration of housing from that era anywhere in Manhattan. I would imagine there's considerably more wealth, and considerably more off-street parking facilities in the UES than in Paris' 7th, yet car ownership rates seem quite divergent.

And I'm not saying that Paris has a high proportion of car ownership; just somewhat higher than I expected given that Paris has (at least arguably) the densest rail network and most consistently auto hostile urban form of any major Western city. I mean, if you were building a transit-oriented, pedestrian-oriented megacity from scratch, you could hardly do better than emulating Paris.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2016, 4:49 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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So here's my wild guess for Paris- the 16th, 8th and 7th have the highest rates, and, yes, are the richest Paris neighborhoods. There's clear correlation with wealth and auto ownership in Paris, and it doesn't appear to be the case in NYC.

Maybe it's because, in France, urban living for the wealthy is the norm, and so the rich live in cities because that's what they do, not necessarily because they have urbanist tendencies. In the U.S. urban living for the wealthy is the definite exception, so wealthy people who choose to live in Manhattan are making a conscious choice to embrace an urban lifestyle?

I mean, in the U.S., if you are wealthy, there's absolutely no reason to live in an urban environment unless that's your specific preference. The default location for the rich is wealthy suburbia, with single family homes geared around the auto. But in France, the wealthy tend to live in apartments in more urban environments, and you are simply following the "rules" to live in the 7th or 16th, just as you are following the "rules" if you're a radiologist living in a wealthy suburb in Ohio or wherever.

Also, maybe some wealthy urbanites in the U.S. have vehicles but in their weekend/country homes? Totally anecdotal, but I know some wealthy Manhattan families that own cars, but keep them in other home in the Hamptons or on the Connecticut coast. Would the Census pick this up?
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2016, 4:59 PM
nei nei is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
But that doesn't seem to follow in NYC. The Upper East Side, probably the largest concentration of urban wealth anywhere on the planet, has a low car ownership rate, only slightly higher than the rate for Manhattan as a whole. The UES is probably the closest U.S. equivalent to Paris' 7th arrondissement.
In the Manhattan core (excludes Harlem and Washington Heights), 23% of households own cars. Upper East Side is around 30%, so about a quarter higher.

The income difference is more obvious outside of Manhattan.

Quote:
And the UES has only one low income housing project and has a fairly large amount of parking facilities, at least for Manhattan standards (because a lot of UES housing was built between the 1950's and 1970's, when parking restrictions were looser than today; obviously prior to the 1950's there was no parking because it wasn't needed).
I wouldn't be surprised if housing projects have car ownership levels similar to neighboring more affluent blocks. They have their off-street parking lots. In poorer neighborhoods in say Harlem, housing projects might even have higher car ownership.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7960...8i6656!6m1!1e1

Upper West Side: projects to the right have parking, private housing to the left does not
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