Homicide stats in Canadian Cities

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’m curious. What’s the historical root of this? I mean, had it been like this even before the Europeans came along?

I'm not sure what it was like in the pre-contact days, but it's pretty clear that the government policies of resettlement and forced assimilation through means such as residential schools would have had a massively disruptive effect on many Indigenous people.

You read the papers here and not a week goes by where you don't read a crime story involving some super-typical accused who does something atrocious and then at trial it is discovered that he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, lived in foster care, was abused, etc. I'm sure that in most of those cases if you go back a generation or two you will probably find someone traumatized by residential schools who ended up drinking or whatever to cope.

(One thing I have always found curious about this, though, is that other ethnic groups have experienced large scale, long term trauma and haven't necessarily ended up in similar situations...)

[Luisito]

Just read online Winnipeg is at 40 homicides now.

I don't remember exactly what we did last year but I believe we are almost at the same number.

[Luisito]

Make that 41.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Make that 41.

That is the same number of murders as last year which happened to be a record. Sadly, with a month to go in 2020 we will almost certainly set a new high this year.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

That is the same number of murders as last year which happened to be a record. Sadly, with a month to go in 2020 we will almost certainly set a new high this year.

I thought it was 44 last year? I hope we dont break anothe record. Its too high of a number as it is.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I thought it was 44 last year? I hope we dont break anothe record. Its too high of a number as it is.

Yes, you are correct. I was thinking of the old record which was beaten by last year's new record of 44.

[blueandgoldguy]

In the link I provided below you can see where the vast majority of Winnipeg's murders happen downtown, west of downtown (Spence, West End, Daniel McIntyre, Centennial) and an area north of downtown (North End, Dufferin, William White, St. John's)

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/interact...des%20reported.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure what it was like in the pre-contact days, but it's pretty clear that the government policies of resettlement and forced assimilation through means such as residential schools would have had a massively disruptive effect on many Indigenous people.

You read the papers here and not a week goes by where you don't read a crime story involving some super-typical accused who does something atrocious and then at trial it is discovered that he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, lived in foster care, was abused, etc. I'm sure that in most of those cases if you go back a generation or two you will probably find someone traumatized by residential schools who ended up drinking or whatever to cope.

(One thing I have always found curious about this, though, is that other ethnic groups have experienced large scale, long term trauma and haven't necessarily ended up in similar situations...)

That's a very uncomfortable question.

Though perhaps part of the answer lies in recent posts in the racism thread, where we talked about how for some people there seems to be a psychological difference between still being in a place where the bad stuff happened and which is your people's "home", and starting anew in a place with a totally clean slate.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure what it was like in the pre-contact days, but it's pretty clear that the government policies of resettlement and forced assimilation through means such as residential schools would have had a massively disruptive effect on many Indigenous people.

You read the papers here and not a week goes by where you don't read a crime story involving some super-typical accused who does something atrocious and then at trial it is discovered that he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, lived in foster care, was abused, etc. I'm sure that in most of those cases if you go back a generation or two you will probably find someone traumatized by residential schools who ended up drinking or whatever to cope.

(One thing I have always found curious about this, though, is that other ethnic groups have experienced large scale, long term trauma and haven't necessarily ended up in similar situations...)

I think it was the shattering of Indigenous families that proved absolutely so destructive.

People can survive trauma if they have someone else to lean on. Wars, famine and crushing poverty are all things humans have faced. The family provides the base of support and value in human life. I attribute the success of many immigrants to Canada to the family structures they imported with them.

Vietnamese Canadians survived the destruction of their home country that had been ravaged by war for decades. The values imparted through family allowed them to thrive in a hostile and foreign land - hard work, education and making the right choices in life. They've gone on to become one of the most successful immigrant groups in Canada.

There's so much that is learned through osmosis in life. Family provides that learning - the osmosis of one's values, how to participate in society and belief structure. By shattering family, there's none of that learning happening.

Which I don't think other Canadians understand. They just think a cheque should fix the problem. Uh, no. By totally upending generations of people, the trauma is passed down because the foundation of human life is shot. All the shoring up in the world won't fix a house that just had a bulldozer run through the foundation.

Fixing that foundation will take generations. Generations of work, patience, money, respect and time.

It's not going to be a quick fix. I'm reminded of JFK's inaugural speech: "All this will not be finished in the first one hundred days. Nor will it be finished in the first one thousand days; nor in the life of this Administration; nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin."

We would be wise to adopt the same patience he tried to get Americans to adopt regarding peace.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by esquire

I'm not sure what it was like in the pre-contact days, but it's pretty clear that the government policies of resettlement and forced assimilation through means such as residential schools would have had a massively disruptive effect on many Indigenous people.

You read the papers here and not a week goes by where you don't read a crime story involving some super-typical accused who does something atrocious and then at trial it is discovered that he was born with fetal alcohol syndrome, lived in foster care, was abused, etc. I'm sure that in most of those cases if you go back a generation or two you will probably find someone traumatized by residential schools who ended up drinking or whatever to cope.

(One thing I have always found curious about this, though, is that other ethnic groups have experienced large scale, long term trauma and haven't necessarily ended up in similar situations...)

You bring up an interesting question. I too have thought about this. One thing I hear a lot of Natives here in Canada talk about is Genocide. While I understand they were mistreated I would never call what happened to them genocide. In my home country there certainly was genocide. Certain indigenous groups were targeted by the army and entire villages wiped out, massacred and thrown in mass graves. Hundreds of thousands of people were wiped out. I really think the term genocide in Canada is used to loosely. Yes they were treated wrongly here in Canada but I see society here actually trying to make amends here.

As far as why Natives here do poorly vs other groups I think it has to do with a sense of identity and the value you place on your own culture. I say that because I see it with some Latin Americans, in my own community. Latin Americans with strong Identities, and have a healthy image of their own cultures usually do well in life. Many mestizos that don't have a strong sense of identity and come from countries that have experienced a lot of political violence(el salvador for example, a mestizo country) suffer from many of the same problems Natives here in Canada do. Natives from Latin America, despite their lack of education are usually better behaved than their mestizo counterparts and don't have a reputation for violence, quite the opposite actually. I honestly think it has to do with their strong sense of identity. Many are still familair with their languages, traditons, foods and working with each other to survive, work and fend off racist latinos/mestizos.

IMHO.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Luisito

You bring up an interesting question. I too have thought about this. One thing I hear a lot of Natives here in Canada talk about is Genocide. While I understand they were mistreated I would never call what happened to them genocide. In my home country there certainly was genocide. Certain indigenous groups were targeted by the army and entire villages wiped out, massacred and thrown in mass graves. Hundreds of thousands of people were wiped out. I really think the term genocide in Canada is used to loosely. Yes they were treated wrongly here in Canada but I see society here actually trying to make amends here.
.

Well, the Prime Minister of Canada himself has said that the issue of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls (MMIWG) is "genocide".

Since I am a stickler for using the right word for things, I can only disagree with that. Genocide is the deliberate elimination of a group of people (often via murder) by another group of people. MMIWG is indeed horrible and scandalous, and the authorities who did not take the cases seriously need to be reprimanded and reformed or reinvented.

But when you consider the vast majority of perpetrators are indigenous males, it's a bit absurd to refer to this as a genocide.

Though if you add up everything that has been done to indigenous people in Canada since the 1600s-1700s, globally I think a decent case for the genocide definition could be made.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by Luisito

One thing I hear a lot of Natives here in Canada talk about is Genocide. While I understand they were mistreated I would never call what happened to them genocide.
IMHO.

Article II of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

...

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...20Genocide.pdf

This is just how the UN defines genocide. If you disagree with the UNs definition thats another thing.

Based on this definition, I think Canada committed genocide against indigenous people.

[vid]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

Article II of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide states:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

...

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...20Genocide.pdf

This is just how the UN defines genocide. If you disagree with the UNs definition thats another thing.

Based on this definition, I think Canada committed genocide against indigenous people.

Don't bother, it's well established further back in this thread (and a few others) that both Lio and Acajack don't consider that definition to apply to Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vid

Don't bother, it's well established further back in this thread (and a few others) that both Lio and Acajack don't consider that definition to apply to Canada.

Ben non vid. I've said many times on here that residential schools were a blatant attempt at cultural genocide. The MMIWG issue is not, even if it's still horrible.

Reading more carefully = always a good thing.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vid

Don't bother, it's well established further back in this thread (and a few others) that both Lio and Acajack don't consider that definition to apply to Canada.

Source?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

Based on this definition, I think Canada committed genocide against indigenous people.

Oh, of course. Everyone agrees. I mean, FFS, that's not debatable, is it?

"You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race. I should be very glad your scheme for hunting them down by dogs could take effect, but England is at too great a distance to think of that at present," wrote Amherst in a 1763 letter.

The relevant question though is: when's the last time we did such things? If the answer is "generations ago, and we don't do it any more" then we aren't committing genocide (note the present tense) against indigenous people.