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  #10321  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 6:00 PM
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Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
I honestly hate this. If you're going to 30th/Downing to Broadway, it's now a connection. Is RTD retiming trains through the downtown loop, though?
I believe so. It's being done because the D Line is constantly delayed by the alternate train that has to go to 30th & Downing. Eliminating this spur and keeping all D Line trains on the loop should improve on-time performance. If RTD also ever does the pocket track at 14th & Stout this would further increase operational performance and there would be another train (the L Line) running downtown with 15m frequencies.
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  #10322  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 6:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
I honestly hate this. If you're going to 30th/Downing to Broadway, it's now a connection. Is RTD retiming trains through the downtown loop, though?
Are you talking about going to I-25/Broadway station? Sure, you have to transfer, but any of 3 lines will get you there. Let's say you want to take that trip at noon on a Sunday (ie not peak time, and only 2 of the 3 lines are running). From 18th & Stout, trains go south an average of every 7.5 minutes, which means your average wait time will be 3 minutes, 45 seconds.

If this improves on-time performance or saves enough operating money that RTD can run trains more often, it's worth it. Forcing transfers is fine as long as the service is good and trains come often enough. It can even be better, if it simplifies the route structure and improves service for the majority of riders who aren't transferring.

It's a bit like how Colfax buses use separate routes east & west of downtown. Why doesn't RTD run the 15 and 16 as a single line, going all the way across Denver? Because most of the riders aren't making that trip, and they can run buses more often, with fewer delays and less bus-bunching, by ending both lines downtown and forcing a few people to transfer. It's better for 95% of Colfax bus riders, maybe 99%.

Or it's a bit like the C-D line dilemma. If you're at Littleton and you want to go to Union Station, you'd be dumb to doggedly insist on a one-seat ride, and let a D line train pass by without getting on. You board the D train and switch at I-25/Broadway to whatever C-or-E train comes first, halving your theoretical average wait time.
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  #10323  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 6:37 PM
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The L/D Line decoupling was a recommendation in the 2014 CRE study, but was thought to only be possible with the pocket track (Wong eluded to). Fast forward a couple years with a bit more analysis and we now know you can squeeze another train in without the pocket track - hence the decision to start the L-line now.

This being the 3rd "circulator", maybe there is an opportunity for a broader center city circulator system? Hmm. What if, one day, the L-line were free? Hmm.

And Cirrus nailed all the transfer issues.
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  #10324  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
RTD will be killing the D Line going to 30th/Downing later this year and it will instead terminate in the downtown loop. In it's place the L Line will run around the downtown loop, up to 30th and Downing, and (eventually) to 38th & Blake.
Hadn't seen that, makes a little bit more sense, especially if there is a plan to extend the redevelopment boom from Welton down this stretch of Downing along with the new line that will essentially convert D/F/H lines to 38th street running trains.
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  #10325  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
The L/D Line decoupling was a recommendation in the 2014 CRE study, but was thought to only be possible with the pocket track (Wong eluded to). Fast forward a couple years with a bit more analysis and we now know you can squeeze another train in without the pocket track - hence the decision to start the L-line now.

This being the 3rd "circulator", maybe there is an opportunity for a broader center city circulator system? Hmm. What if, one day, the L-line were free? Hmm.

And Cirrus nailed all the transfer issues.
So I guess that kills any hope that the "L" Line could someday skip the downtown loop and instead go down Broadway to or through Civic Center, right?
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  #10326  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 8:59 PM
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So I guess that kills any hope that the "L" Line could someday skip the downtown loop and instead go down Broadway to or through Civic Center, right?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to terminate at Civic Center- traffic on the L will be pretty light until it connects to the A-Line and people use it as an alternative to the Connector for reaching the CBD. You'd be tearing out a big chunk of service area, though gaining the upper portion of the CBD.

Broadway, though..... suddenly you've got a streetcar replacing the 0. Though is this a better service, or just another Midwest streetcar novelty?
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  #10327  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 9:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Doesn't make a lot of sense to terminate at Civic Center- traffic on the L will be pretty light until it connects to the A-Line and people use it as an alternative to the Connector for reaching the CBD. You'd be tearing out a big chunk of service area, though gaining the upper portion of the CBD.

Broadway, though..... suddenly you've got a streetcar replacing the 0. Though is this a better service, or just another Midwest streetcar novelty?
I remember there was at least a push on here a few years ago (and perhaps an RTD study, I can't remember) for the 38th and Blake line to go south onto Broadway going to at least Civic Center station, the art museum, or even farther south. The reasoning was that this could be a way to still serve these places if a fourth line created train gridlock in the current downtown loop.

My memory is a little hazy as to whether this was something RTD was seriously studying or whether this was just something we all dreamed up and hoped we could wish it into happening. I think it was at least one suggestion RTD came up with to the theoretical gridlock in the loop scenario, though correct me if I'm wrong.

On paper, a line that goes from 38th and Blake almost entirely due south into Five Points, Civic Center, and the Golden Triangle seems like a cool streetcar for the backbone of the city. The current line as it's already built is more like a streetcar anyway. Of course, if the projected ridership isn't there (or the money), I suppose it doesn't matter how good it looks on paper.
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  #10328  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CharlesCO View Post
So I guess that kills any hope that the "L" Line could someday skip the downtown loop and instead go down Broadway to or through Civic Center, right?
I wouldn't say that.
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  #10329  
Old Posted May 1, 2017, 11:56 PM
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Fair enough, Cirrus, PLANSIT, et al. I retract my hate and replace it with a slight annoyance.
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  #10330  
Old Posted May 2, 2017, 5:28 AM
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Frontier was originally saved by Republic. They were originally offered a buyout from Southwest but rejected it. Once Republic realized they couldn't run a branded airline operation, they sold it off to the same group that flipped Spirit from a frumpy carrier into the ULCC airline that it is today.
My comment was made after a Rockies game so I'm calling it Late Night Amnesia. Eh, what's a few years of lost history? Thanks for the correction tho - that was quite an oversight on my part.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LooksLikeForever View Post
As a long time reader, first time poster, I felt the need to add my two cents about Frontier.

More recently I noticed they've changed the wording to specify "Train to City", but again I wonder... why not just say "Train to Downtown Denver" or similar? Why be vague about it? One of DIA's greatest assets is now the A line and the train to downtown.
W E L C O M E - and great comment(s).

I especially like your idea about "Train to Downtown Denver."


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Originally Posted by Sam Hill View Post
The train is worse. I-70 is pretty bad but...
Amazing comments. I can't recall the last time somebody induced so many to jump off the sidelines to make a comment. Well done, Sir.


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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
I wouldn't say that.
I believe they want to coordinate it with the Urban Signature Line is what I heard.
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  #10331  
Old Posted May 2, 2017, 7:27 PM
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Oh boy, this is encouraging; a real confidence builder. /sarcasm font

RTD '100 percent' confident G Line will be up and running by end of year
May 1, 2017 by Marc Stewart - 7News Denver
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  #10332  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 3:08 AM
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What's important and not with respect to better bus service?

I really like this site. pages 1 & 2 (also linked above) for distinguishing between enhanced and BRT level service.

As for what's most important off-board (ease of) ticketing and multi-door boarding would seem to be at the top. Frequency is also important. Pretty much what ddvmke mentioned above.

This one caught me a bit by surprise. I can see where real-time arrival information would be nifty for all the tech-savvy riders but I didn't appreciate its importance. There was a study done with respect to Seattle RapidRide routes called OneBusAway that states:
Quote:
The usability of transit can be significantly enhanced by providing good traveler information systems. OneBusAway is a set of transit tools focused on providing real-time arrival information for Seattle-area bus riders.

This paper describes OneBusAway and the results from a survey of OneBusAway users that show a set of important positive outcomes: strongly increased overall satisfaction with public transit, decreased waiting time, increased transit trips per week, increased feelings of safety, and even a health benefit in terms of increased distance walked when using transit.
When you think about this nothing makes we humans more anxious than "not knowing" or "not having any control." If you merely need to take a look at your smart phone to see exactly where the next bus is, it allows for knowing and even if bus is running a tad slow, you can still relax from being able to see what's up.

Seattle seems to have done well with their RapidRide routes. Just from a first look, it appears that a couple of their routes that follow freeways and/or major arterials generally reflect what RTD has already done with a couple of their light rail routes. Overall, their routes seem to hold to using infrequent stops until they get into higher density/downtown areas where closer stops would make sense. The service is frequent especially during rush hours.

There are a number of other things that make for better bus routes and service and the more that can be incorporated the closer you get to feeling it's just as good as light rail.

The whole purpose ofc is to get more people out of their cars and actually riding and liking bus transit.
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  #10333  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 4:19 AM
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Buses that are "just as good" as rail:

Buses can never be just as good as light rail, because of inherent capacity, legibility, smoothness, and boarding differences. But buses can definitely be much much better than they are. I'm 100% in favor of both actual BRT and BRT-lite, when used appropriately as part of thoughtfully planned systems. My problems are when people try to insist on one-size-fits-all modal demands, or try to pass off a lesser solution as being just as good as something better.

Real-time info:

Real-time info completely changes how people use transit. For some people, it just helps you decide when to leave for the bus stop, giving you 5 or 10 more minutes to stop at the bathroom on the way, or buy a coffee, or read a few more posts on your favorite message board. But for others, it opens up additional opportunities and makes transit trips a lot faster.

As an example, consider my daily commute. To get from my house to the Metro, I can take the streetcar, any one of 6 different bus lines (picking up at 5 different locations so I can't just go to a single stop and take the first to arrive), or bikeshare. Using real-time information, I can see which option is going to be fastest, and therefore modify my commute literally every time to get the best result. This saves me up to 15 minutes in each direction, sometimes totaling 30 minutes less commuting every day, compared to if I just went blindly to one of the options and waited for it.

There is no physical infrastructure imaginable that would be even remotely as cost effective at saving people that much time.
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  #10334  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 4:24 AM
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But all that said, frequency is still much more important than real-time info.
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  #10335  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 12:02 PM
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So what are the opinions on the proper approach currently for a system like RTD? Better to focus on frequency and adding options still or add real time info? Is there data to hone in on that would show the breaking point where options are sufficient and optimizing how people view those options (real time info or other technology) is where resources should go? Is a breaking point even a proper way to think about this?
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  #10336  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 2:40 PM
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Real-time is so easy and cheap to roll out that everyone should have it. It's like smartcards; it's embarrassing not to.

You just can't add real-time and then call it a day. Real-time doesn't suddenly make your city as transit-accessible as New York. It's super cost effective but if the bus only comes every 30 minutes then you still have a shitty bus.
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  #10337  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 4:35 PM
ddvmke ddvmke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
What's important and not with respect to better bus service?

I really like this site. pages 1 & 2 (also linked above) for distinguishing between enhanced and BRT level service.

As for what's most important off-board (ease of) ticketing and multi-door boarding would seem to be at the top. Frequency is also important. Pretty much what ddvmke mentioned above.

This one caught me a bit by surprise. I can see where real-time arrival information would be nifty for all the tech-savvy riders but I didn't appreciate its importance. There was a study done with respect to Seattle RapidRide routes called OneBusAway that states:

When you think about this nothing makes we humans more anxious than "not knowing" or "not having any control." If you merely need to take a look at your smart phone to see exactly where the next bus is, it allows for knowing and even if bus is running a tad slow, you can still relax from being able to see what's up.

Seattle seems to have done well with their RapidRide routes. Just from a first look, it appears that a couple of their routes that follow freeways and/or major arterials generally reflect what RTD has already done with a couple of their light rail routes. Overall, their routes seem to hold to using infrequent stops until they get into higher density/downtown areas where closer stops would make sense. The service is frequent especially during rush hours.

There are a number of other things that make for better bus routes and service and the more that can be incorporated the closer you get to feeling it's just as good as light rail.

The whole purpose ofc is to get more people out of their cars and actually riding and liking bus transit.
Thanks for sharing the great article - I think real time information often goes overlooked when thinking about improved experience overall, whether it means timing leaving your house just right to avoid wasting time at the stop (or less likely in Denver - waiting in the rain), or happening past the bus stop with a real-time ticker and a bus arriving soon that you could actually use to get you somewhere faster. I think the 'Denver Transit' app does an OK job of this but would love to see Citymapper get in the Denver game.

Interestingly, it's my understanding that this is one of the cheapest improvements for transit experience as well since it typically only requires the agency releasing data to the public to cause developers to add some sort of solution (with screens at stops obviously requiring additional capital).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
But all that said, frequency is still much more important than real-time info.
While ostensibly true, I think the real time data goes a long way to informing people of the frequencies, thus making them nearly as important once frequencies are actually improved (sort of a multiplying effect I guess).
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  #10338  
Old Posted May 3, 2017, 11:24 PM
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RTD’s North Line will take longer than expected, officials say

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denver Post
RTD and Regional Rail Partners, a joint venture, are “re-evaluating the schedule for the first 13 miles of the North Line design-build commuter rail project,” according to an RTD news release.

The first phase of the planned 18.5-mile electric commuter rail line is supposed to be finished by the end of 2017, opening early in 2018. But those plans apparently have been scrapped because of “current construction challenges,” RTD said.

. . .

“In any type of construction — housing, roadways, commercial buildings — there can be schedule impacts for various reasons. The main contributing factor impacting the N-Line schedule is the completion of the overall design drawings and receiving final approval of those designs,” said Ashland Vaughn, N-Line project manager.

RTD on Tuesday gave no exact date for completion.
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  #10339  
Old Posted May 4, 2017, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
Real-time is so easy and cheap to roll out that everyone should have it. It's like smartcards; it's embarrassing not to.

You just can't add real-time and then call it a day. Real-time doesn't suddenly make your city as transit-accessible as New York. It's super cost effective but if the bus only comes every 30 minutes then you still have a shitty bus.
I wondered... IIRC Seattle/King County Metro laid their own fiber along each RapidRide route.


So no shitty buses. Something like this then?


Courtesy of OldJunkCar, lol

Or maybe you prefer a cool bus



Or is a sexy bus more to your taste


Courtesy funnycoolstuff
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  #10340  
Old Posted May 4, 2017, 1:44 AM
Zmapper Zmapper is offline
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Fun fact: Colorado taxes private bus companies (like Greyhound, Burlington Trailways, etc) .001 per passenger-mile. As far as I can tell, they are the only state to levy this type of tax.

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sit...s/Excise14.pdf
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