Calgary Roads

[Mazrim]

Looks pretty expensive!

Too bad about that Beddington concept. Functionally I don't see how it works. You've got way too many lanes coming together in one place NB/SB Deerfoot traffic to WB Beddington, and then add 11th Street on top of that. As it stands that would need to be a signalized intersection which would kill NB Deerfoot.

[Corndogger]

I hope a system like this never comes to Calgary! The system in Dubai is used to catch a lot more than lane change violations.

• Video Link

[craner]

So I attended the Deerfoot open house on Wed. night - a few things concerned me:

1. Deerfoot/Memorial-17th Ave - the proposals for this area look like a complete mess. Access for most movements between Memorial & Deerfoot is so indirect, circuitous & counter-intuitive it reminds me of the current NB to WB movement at Deerfoot-Glenmore on steroids. To go from EB Memorial to SB Deerfoot you need to cross Deerfoot only to cross it again going south. The LRT tracks are still a factor in the proposed interchange plans and the only consistent direct movement on all three proposals is SB to WB.

2. Deerfoot/Glenmore - Two loops on the west side of Deerfoot make for a very short weave distance which is one of the problems with the current interchange.

3. Deerfoot/16th Ave-19th St. - Just seems way more complicated than it needs to be. This comment could be applied to most of the proposed designs actually. Deerfoot/Anderson & Deerfoot/Beddington are another couple that come to mind.

I'm not sure why upgrades to Deerfoot/Airport Tr. were not part of this study ?

One thing I did like is all the boards seemed to indicate 4 core lanes on Deerfoot.

Anyway, construction is likely so far off into the future things will change dramatically before any of this is built.

[People_talking]

I will always stand by my belief that we have the worst city planners. A majority of the upgrades can be drastically improved in functionality and traffic flow IMO. The weave zone at Deerfoot and Glenmore is a very poor design and IMO it would be way better if they had replicated the Stoney and 16th interchange on the east side of the ring road. Aside from that the 16th and Deerfoot interchange seems like a temporary fix to something that I feel like should be a free flowing interchange. I truly hope they adhere to advice given and improve on some of these issues. Im sure it will be years until this even breaks ground so they have plenty of time thankfully.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by People_talking

I will always stand by my belief that we have the worst city planners. A majority of the upgrades can be drastically improved in functionality and traffic flow IMO. The weave zone at Deerfoot and Glenmore is a very poor design and IMO it would be way better if they had replicated the Stoney and 16th interchange on the east side of the ring road. Aside from that the 16th and Deerfoot interchange seems like a temporary fix to something that I feel like should be a free flowing interchange. I truly hope they adhere to advice given and improve on some of these issues. Im sure it will be years until this even breaks ground so they have plenty of time thankfully.

I’m kinda confused with your dumping Deerfoot on the City. It’s been a provincial highway for over 20 years. True it wasn’t well designed 35+ years ago when it was built, but that were the times back in the early 80’s. The province has put virtually zero dollars into it since they took it over.
I’m guessing the city is showing interest into it because they are going to be forced to take it back after the Ring Road is complete

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by msmariner

I’m kinda confused with your dumping Deerfoot on the City. It’s been a provincial highway for over 20 years. True it wasn’t well designed 35+ years ago when it was built, but that were the times back in the early 80’s. The province has put virtually zero dollars into it since they took it over.
I’m guessing the city is showing interest into it because they are going to be forced to take it back after the Ring Road is complete

When the province took back control of the road in 2000 they did a ton of work. All of the interchanges from Douglasdale Blvd. south were built, the road was widened along that stretch to 8 lanes and the extension to just north of Okotoks was built. The province also improved the Peigan Trail interchange and I believe they're going to be paying for a part of the 212 Avenue interchange ($30 million?). They've probably also done other stuff that I can't think off right now off the top of my head. There's definitely a lot of things to fix and vastly improve and a lot of it is because the City did a horrible job of designing that road even back when it was built.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and the province will keep control of the road. The last thing any of us should want is for the City of Calgary to be put back in charge of the busiest road segment in the province. Ideally the province should keep control and also takeover Glenmore.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by craner

So I attended the Deerfoot open house on Wed. night - a few things concerned me:

2. Deerfoot/Glenmore - Two loops on the west side of Deerfoot make for a very short weave distance which is one of the problems with the current interchange.
[B]

I think you're interpreting the diagram incorrectly. The loops which are in black are the existing road but they're extended by a long pink merge lane (CD system) which eventually hooks back into the main road. What they're proposing is a lot better if I understand things correctly.

One thing I did like is all the boards seemed to indicate 4 core lanes on Deerfoot.

Anyway, construction is likely so far off into the future things will change dramatically before any of this is built.

I went to last night's open house and talked for awhile with another attendee and one of the consultants about the project. The company he works for was hired by Alberta Transportation. He told us some pretty interesting things based on the questions we asked him. The City is running this expansion/fix info gathering process but it sure sounds like it's Alberta Transportation calling the shots behind the scenes. That doesn't mean the City has no say.

Concerning having 8 lanes the entire stretch that might not be the case based on a comment the consultant made. He said some areas might have 6 lanes but will have a CD system to keep traffic separated. I found when looking at the boards and hearing people comment about them that nearly everyone wanted CD lanes to make the road as safe as possible. I was pleasantly surprised to not hear one person mention cost. Maybe it was just the people there at the time but I got the sense that people realize that this is likely to be a one time opportunity to do major fixes and expansion to this freeway.

The consultant told us that the overall cost will definitely be more than $1 billion and he mentioned what they figure one of the major interchange complexes will cost but said it's confidential so I won't mention it other than to say that it's big number but very reasonable for what they plan on doing.

The person asking questions with me asked if they've considered going the P3 route so this can get done all at once in a timely manner. The consultant said all options are on the table and that we should let them know that we'd be in favor of doing this as a P3. The consultant seemed pretty excited about going the P3 route as did the person I was with.

The plan going forward is to narrow the choices and options down by March and then I believe have more open houses. I hope the data being collected is also given to Alberta Transportation so the City doesn't rig the analysis to make it seem like a significant percentage of people want the project to include major spending on alternate modes of transportation.

[msmariner]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

When the province took back control of the road in 2000 they did a ton of work. All of the interchanges from Douglasdale Blvd. south were built, the road was widened along that stretch to 8 lanes and the extension to just north of Okotoks was built. The province also improved the Peigan Trail interchange and I believe they're going to be paying for a part of the 212 Avenue interchange ($30 million?). They've probably also done other stuff that I can't think off right now off the top of my head. There's definitely a lot of things to fix and vastly improve and a lot of it is because the City did a horrible job of designing that road even back when it was built.

Hopefully common sense will prevail and the province will keep control of the road. The last thing any of us should want is for the City of Calgary to be put back in charge of the busiest road segment in the province. Ideally the province should keep control and also takeover Glenmore.

That’s not what I’m talking about. The 4 interchanges from Douglas glen to McKenzie we’re all traffic lights at one time. As development grew in they were turned into a proper freeway. Including the work at 212 and the extension to Macleod trail near Okotoks. I was talking about the real Deerfoot from Anderson in the south to Beddington in the North. This section of Deerfoot is the busiest highway in Alberta and probably one of the busiest in country. This section has been completely neglected. The only projects I can remember the province completing in this time are few and far between. Some of them are;
1. Putting asphalt over the concrete from 17ave to the bow river (road is as bad as it was when the concrete was exposed)
2. Road expansion north and southbound between Beddington and 64th
3. Some ramp work Glenmore/Deerfoot
4. The little overpass built to fix the weave at SB Southland exit (it probably was the best fix to date on Deerfoot ). I kinda think the developer of the mall paid for a good chunk of that
5. Fixing the flyover ramp from Pegan to SB
Might have missed some other small fixes since the province took over. That sure isn’t a big investment to fixing or keeping up with population growth of Calgary in the past 20 years.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by msmariner

That’s not what I’m talking about. The 4 interchanges from Douglas glen to McKenzie we’re all traffic lights at one time. As development grew in they were turned into a proper freeway. Including the work at 212 and the extension to Macleod trail near Okotoks. I was talking about the real Deerfoot from Anderson in the south to Beddington in the North. This section of Deerfoot is the busiest highway in Alberta and probably one of the busiest in country. This section has been completely neglected. The only projects I can remember the province completing in this time are few and far between. Some of them are;
1. Putting asphalt over the concrete from 17ave to the bow river (road is as bad as it was when the concrete was exposed)
2. Road expansion north and southbound between Beddington and 64th
3. Some ramp work Glenmore/Deerfoot
4. The little overpass built to fix the weave at SB Southland exit (it probably was the best fix to date on Deerfoot ). I kinda think the developer of the mall paid for a good chunk of that
5. Fixing the flyover ramp from Pegan to SB
Might have missed some other small fixes since the province took over. That sure isn’t a big investment to fixing or keeping up with population growth of Calgary in the past 20 years.

I was unaware that there's a "real" Deerfoot. Anyway, what the province built in the south was badly needed and part of that area is the most congested according to the current study. Also, that stretch used to have no traffic lights at all until the city caved into developers and allowed them to develop one huge community after another without putting in interchanges.

Most people would agree with you that not much has been done on the stretch going from about Anderson north to Airport Trail. It would be great if they did the entire upgrade as a P3 to get the whole thing done in one shot.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I think you're interpreting the diagram incorrectly. The loops which are in black are the existing road but they're extended by a long pink merge lane (CD system) which eventually hooks back into the main road. What they're proposing is a lot better if I understand things correctly.

Hmmm .... I think you might be referring to the Blackfoot/Glenmore interchange?

From what I'm seeing if you're coming south on Deerfoot to take the EB Glenmore exit loop you have to contend with WB to SB vehicles trying to merge in a short distance before the EB exit loop.

[milomilo]

Pretty disappointing they aren't truly fixing Deerfoot/Glenmore. Considering this is all 10+ years away and essentially won't get another upgrade in our lifetimes, we will forever have a 4 lane bottleneck on Glenmore.

The plans for Deerfoot/Glenmore look very similar or identical to the plans the province released years ago, I'll see if I can find them.

Edit: Yep, virtually identical:

[milomilo]

So Glenmore, coming from the west, will continue to go:

3 lanes (to Crowchild)
2 lanes (over the causeway)
3 lanes (14th to Deerfoot)
2 lanes (Under Deerfoot)
3 lanes (To Ogden)
2 lanes (After Ogden)

No one seems to care about this though?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

So Glenmore, coming from the west, will continue to go:

3 lanes (to Crowchild)
2 lanes (over the causeway)
3 lanes (14th to Deerfoot)
2 lanes (Under Deerfoot)
3 lanes (To Ogden)
2 lanes (After Ogden)

No one seems to care about this though?

The City says they'll be doing a study in the future to address the Crowchild/Glenmore interchange. I believe they'll add in a lane then, put in higher speed ramps, etc. Why they didn't do that stuff now is beyond me. I don't see it as a huge project. With everything else they've been doing in the area they should have done the entire project at once.

Whenever Alberta Transportation goes ahead with Deerfoot fixes I'm pretty sure that Glenmore will have 3 lanes each way in that area. It would be crazy not to add lanes.

Further to the east the City definitely plans on adding lanes. It's just a question of when they'll build the final interchanges and/or get the province to help.

[milomilo]

Unless they rebuild the Deerfoot overpass above Glenmore, it would be hard/impossible to add extra through lanes. The support pillars are in the way, which perhaps could be engineered around, but it doesn't look plausible to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

Those concrete slopes, it is really easy to replace them with retaining walls instead. You just end up with a vertical wall somewhat like this: https://www.ail.ca/project/vist-a-wa...t-interchange/ except since you can't do new vertical piles, you need to to horizontal and or 45' ones which are secured in to stop the wall from tumbling outwards into the road.

[milomilo]

I've always wondered how hard those slopes were to remove. How about the support piers though? I'm sure it's 'possible', but at what cost?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I've always wondered how hard those slopes were to remove. How about the support piers though? I'm sure it's 'possible', but at what cost?

So there are lots of options. One, if the bridge is still good for 40, 50 years, and this option is cheaper, you lower the road passing under to maintain clearances, and build huge beams across the road, which then you run beams under the bridges to support where is currently supported by the pillars. Can save money by supporting the pillar in the median too, but didn't draw that.Or could support the entire enterprise from a middle pillar.




Or you rebuild the bridge.



Or you just leave the pillars. Sure there are reasons to remove them, but are the reasons worth $10, 20, 30 million? I don't think so.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Or you just leave the pillars. Sure there are reasons to remove them, but are the reasons worth $10, 20, 30 million? I don't think so.

Is this ever quantified? Is a value judgement made on whether it is worth spend x hundred million on adding a lane to Deerfoot vs adding a lane to Glenmore? Having 2 lane sections of road on our busiest highways is a bit of a joke, although I do realize something being a joke isn't a good enough reason by itself to spend money...

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I've always wondered how hard those slopes were to remove. How about the support piers though? I'm sure it's 'possible', but at what cost?

It's very doable and can be done amazingly quickly. I also don't think the cost is that crazy. Have a look at this animation from what UDOT did back in 2007 that looks very similar to what we have at Glenmore/Deerfoot now.

• Video Link

[milomilo]

That essentially represents replacing the bridge though. It's hard to say for sure, but the plans (both 2004 and recent) seem to suggest keeping the current bridge and adding another alongside (at best). The new plans imply that Glenmore will remain 2 lanes, and if they don't make the upgrade when Deerfoot is upgraded, when will they?