Homicide stats in Canadian Cities

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by vid

We should just classify "incel" as a mental illness and prescribe them a prostitute once a month or something.

This "incel" thing is new to me. Back in the day, they were known as "losers". I guess that faded away once everybody started getting a trophy ....

[vid]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

This "incel" thing is new to me. Back in the day, they were known as "losers". I guess that faded away once everybody started getting a trophy ....

It was your generation that gave them to us. Participation trophies were invented to appease the parents of millennials, not the millennials themselves. I never kept mine, and I honestly don't actually remember receiving any if I did, other than completion certificates. My brother got some, they're at my dad's house because my brother doesn't give a shit about participation trophies either.

Regardless, "incels" are a very small but violent minority, just like the Muslim terrorists or gun owners who commit mass shootiungs. I'd say it's happening more because of the polarization of internet discussion groups, and the rise of demagogues for every little cause. People like Jordan Peterson or Milo Yiannopolos would never have gotten traction in the 1980s, because the market for them hadn't been fostered into existence yet. It's an invention of the isolating nature of the internet.

[vid]

I want to come back to this:

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know that castigating and maligning people who are already socially marginalized to begin with is really the best way to deal with the situation.

Should we give the murderer a hug?

There are lots of men who don't get laid who don't kill because because they didn't get "what they were owed", should we give them lots of hugs?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by vid

Should we give the murderer a hug?

There are lots of men who don't get laid who don't kill because because they didn't get "what they were owed", should we give them lots of hugs?

But esquire was responding to a comment about incels, not Minassian specifically. That group can be described overwhelmingly as men who don't get laid, have somewhat grim lives in many cases, and will never kill anyone or do anything notably harmful besides rant on the internet to other people in the same boat. I doubt many people are lining up to give them hugs either (even though hugs would probably help some of them a lot).

I had never heard of this incel thing before reading about it because of the Toronto attack, and I don't have much to say about it as a social movement.

I will say however that there doesn't seem to be much sympathy directed toward males who struggle. There is a dominant narrative about male privilege but universal male privilege is a myth; only lucky or successful males are privileged. The bottom of the pack of males is not privileged, nor have they been historically privileged. They are the guys who get shot or spend their lives cleaning toilets, and few care about them. The fact that one guy who may have come from this group turned out to be a mass murderer doesn't change this reality.

[vid]

Originally Posted by someone123

I will say however that there doesn't seem to be much sympathy directed toward males who struggle. There is a dominant narrative about male privilege but universal male privilege is a myth; only lucky or successful males are privileged. The bottom of the pack of males is not privileged, nor have they been historically privileged. They are the guys who get shot or spend their lives cleaning toilets, and few care about them. The fact that one guy who may have come from this group turned out to be a mass murderer doesn't change this reality.

And how do we change this? My suggestions of "give them prostitutes" and "give them hugs" are obviously not viable. What else is there? Should we treat them the same way we treat native women?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by vid

I want to come back to this:



Should we give the murderer a hug?

There are lots of men who don't get laid who don't kill because because they didn't get "what they were owed", should we give them lots of hugs?

The funny thing about your comment is that a little less social isolation probably would have reduced the chances of the incident from occurring in the first place. So many of those responsible for these kinds of heinous terrorist or quasi-terrorist acts, whatever their stated rationale, it often boils down to feeling alienated from society or excluded by it.

The whole toxic online incel movement is what you get when a bunch of very isolated and excluded people start banding together as something approximating a mutual support group. Not surprisingly it has turned ugly.

[vid]

How do we de-isolate them?

[esquire]

^ You can't go wrong with basic human kindness and compassion.

[vid]

But then that brings up a couple other questions:

Why is basic human kindness and compassion not being shown to those men?

If basic human kindness and compassion is being shown to those men, but they still turn out as "incels", why is that?

What is an "incels'" definition of "basic human kindness and compassion", and how can the rest of society meet that expectation for them?

What other aspects of society need to be changed to accommodate their realities (ie., questions asked on official documents, terms or phrases used in conversation, how we approach discussions about sex in a general sense, etc.)?

[esquire]

^ I'm not saying it is society's responsibility to fix their involuntary celibacy. That's not the case. But from what I can tell that specific 'incel' issue is a small part of the bigger picture of social alienation and exclusion.

[vid]

So what should we do to make society less alienating and more inclusive?

[esquire]

^ I will leave that to you to ponder... Good night

[vid]

When I suggest answers to that question, I get called a snowflake! I'm genuinely curious how a non-snowflake person answers that question, because I can't recall ever seeing them do it.

I have to go to bed as well, so we'll continue this discussion whenever we have time to waste on this website again.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by vid

So what should we do to make society less alienating and more inclusive?

Actually I don't think your prostitution suggestion is a joke. A lot of sex workers talk about how they provide a sexual outlet for people who would otherwise have none, for a variety of reasons.

Prostitution and sex work are both seriously stigmatized. Hiring a prostitute might even be more stigmatized than working as one. Female prostitutes are often seen as victims (while they may not be) and males who hire prostitutes are almost universally seen as losers and sleazebags (even though they may be engaged in consensual activity that both parties benefit from).

Another problem with our culture is that males are generally treated in a tougher way, regardless of whether they can handle it or not, and affection between males is stigmatized. A lot of men receive roughly zero physical affection outside of what they get from their sexual partners, and if they don't have sexual partners they often get nothing.

If your whole culture revolved around the idea that you need to find a female sexual partner to get any meaningful human affection it is understandable that failing to find such a partner would be really frustrating.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Hard to say. Has anything been said as to whether or not the officer knew that the guy had a cellphone in his hand and not a gun? If he knew that it could very well explain why he didn't shoot.

He almost certainly felt it wasn’t a gun, but even that shows a level of restraint that we don’t usually see. If the police videos we see online are any indication of what usually happens in these situations, any threatening motion is often met with lethal force regardless of what the perp is holding in his hands.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by someone123

Actually I don't think your prostitution suggestion is a joke. A lot of sex workers talk about how they provide a sexual outlet for people who would otherwise have none, for a variety of reasons.

Prostitution and sex work are both seriously stigmatized. Hiring a prostitute might even be more stigmatized than working as one. Female prostitutes are often seen as victims (while they may not be) and males who hire prostitutes are almost universally seen as losers and sleazebags (even though they may be engaged in consensual activity that both parties benefit from).

Another problem with our culture is that males are generally treated in a tougher way, regardless of whether they can handle it or not, and affection between males is stigmatized. A lot of men receive roughly zero physical affection outside of what they get from their sexual partners, and if they don't have sexual partners they often get nothing.

If your whole culture revolved around the idea that you need to find a female sexual partner to get any meaningful human affection it is understandable that failing to find such a partner would be really frustrating.

I don't agree. To respond directly to your point, men can and do have affectionate relationships with non sexual partners, and this is probably why most incels (with the small i) are reasonably well adjusted, albeit sexually frustrated. That being said, there are a subset of men who buy into the machismo alpha male, pick yourself up by your bootstraps and fuck anything with a hole mindset that do struggle.

I've occasionally stumbled on message boards frequented by "Incels" (capital I), and in my line of work I often come across people who fit the profile as well. These guys tend to have an inflated sense of self worth, limited ability to introspect, and have a difficult time empathising with others. In fact, they tend to be quite judgemental. They lack a theory of mind and because of this often get diagnosed on the spectrum. My personal opinion is that most of these people are actually just narcissists. When they buy into the alpha/beta male paradigm peddled by their opinion leaders, only to realise what abject failures they are by their own standards, they engage in the classical narcissistic defence mechanism of projection. In this case, that unfortunately involved murdering 10 innocent people.

Personally, I think the problem is compounded by the fact that our modern lives feed the narcissistic delusion. Consider that we live live in an age where any idiot can go viral on social media, and people can convince themselves to be experts on any topic after a 5 minute google search. Is it really surprising that these nerds who spend half their lives on the internet have an inflated sense of self worth?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by vid

When I suggest answers to that question, I get called a snowflake! I'm genuinely curious how a non-snowflake person answers that question, because I can't recall ever seeing them do it.

I have to go to bed as well, so we'll continue this discussion whenever we have time to waste on this website again.

So does that make me a snowflake too?

Anyway, for starters, the things that come to mind include institutional responses like better treatment for those with mental illness or who are on the autistic spectrum, and working with schools to address the issue. Schools can have pretty nasty social environments and it wouldn't surprise me if the seeds for a lot of these situations were planted there. Workplaces probably have a role in that area too.

Beyond that it's a broader cultural matter of getting people to look at things differently. As Acajack pointed out, we live in a bit of a winner take all culture and some people end up at the losing end of that equation. Not treating people like that as outcasts would be a good start. My impression is that even though incels focus on their lack of a significant other, I think a lot of them simply need a friend, period.

[Acajack]

Over the past few days I've been wondering why I felt a bit uneasy at the point-blank virulent of some to the early conclusions some people drew that this was an ISIS-inspired attack.

I am referring to all the allegations of Islamophobia and the statements most of you have seen like "this comment has no place in MY Canada or MY Toronto", or simply "if you think like that GTFO of Toronto, Canada, etc."

Obviously it's a thin line but given the history (I believe all of the van or truck attacks in recent years except maybe one or two have been ISIS-inspired) can we really blame people if their minds go there when something like this happens?

Also, no one sensible wants to condone Islamophobia, but is it still OK to be ISIS-phobic?

[esquire]

^ I think what people are really reacting to are the alt right agitators who immediately jump in to frame incidents like this as the latest installment of Islam vs the West to suit their own political purposes. And as it turns out, Islamists had nothing to do with this as far as we know.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

This "incel" thing is new to me. Back in the day, they were known as "losers". I guess that faded away once everybody started getting a trophy ....

As the parent of kids now in high school who've been consistently in the upper 90s since the beginning of elementary I can confirm to you that not everyone gets a trophy.

In fact, more often than not it's the underachievers that get the trophies for actually doing a bit of work, or simply being less bothersome to the others.

Kids of mine have finished the *entire year* with a final mark of 100% and seen the academic excellence award go to "Stevie" (name changed to protect the innocent, although...) for stopping throwing his personal stuff and other items like chairs at other kids halfway through the year... this was an "improvement" that needed to be rewarded.

It's a bit better in high school I must admit. Or at least where we go but elementary is just insane right now in its race to the bottom (nivellement par le bas).

I guess the rationale is that self-motivated kids like mine don't need a pat on the back as much as Stevie does - and it's true to a point. It doesn't seem to bother them much at all, whereas it used to enrage my wife and I quite a bit. (We kept this mostly to ourselves.)

And of course I haven't mentioned all the resources devoted to bringing the Stevies of the world up to speed (if only basically) whereas there is comparatively little if anything devoted to providing an extra push to high achievers who could go that much further.

Again, high school is a bit better but it really depends on the program and the school, and often parents have to seek these things out themselves. And pay extra too more often than not.