California High Speed Rail Thread

[M II A II R II K]

And plus the Chinese have more experience actually building the high speed rail in their own country.

[SnyderBock]

When does construction break ground?

[ardecila]

Construction will not start until the design is finished. Fortunately, the Fresno-Bakersfield segment is a breeze compared to the complex design work that CAHSR will require in urbanized SoCal and the Bay Area.

My guess? At the earliest, groundbreaking is 12-18 months from now.

[XtremeDave]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

When does construction break ground?

Construction on the Bakersfield-Fresno segment is supposed to begin in early to mid 2012. Because of the federal dollars involved and the election that year, there will be pressure from the government to make sure construction on that segment begins on time.

[PragmaticIdealist]

Originally Posted by pesto

The spy vs. spy thing with the Chinese is real and continuing but probably not relevant to this. I understand they can already bring down telecom, finance and the power grid at will but won't because they are too heavily invested in the world commercial system.

My greater concern is that neither the Chinese or Japanese, who have made overtures on the Ca. HSR and LA-LV rail lines, have offerred any equity in these deals. Quite the opposite, they have demanded federal quarantees that they will get paid for products and services. This indicates to me that the smell a loser of money and want to remain as suppliers and service providers.

1. No foreign government will ever be allowed to take an equity interest in a multibillion-dollar piece of American infrastructure.

2. The true risk is that some screwball politician or interest group will succeed in killing the high-speed rail system before it's completed.

[pesto]

PI: true but you miss the point. The Chinese and Japanese were not intereted in equity and wanted federal guarantees on the state's or other local body's obligations under the agreement. If they believed in CA HSR's ability to pay for services and product they wouldn't be concerned about this and perhaps would want to be involved in operations, maintenance or repair on a JV basis. But not a word about this in the articles I saw.

[Troubadour]

Originally Posted by pesto

I understand they can already bring down telecom, finance and the power grid at will but won't because they are too heavily invested in the world commercial system.

The point is not that they would necessarily bring down our infrastructure, but that they have never shown the slightest bit of restraint in overtly abusing leverage. Case in point would be the rare metals situation - they manipulated their currency and export profile to eliminate virtually all global competition, and now that they have an effective monopoly they're restricting exports and dictating terms to electronics manufacturers. Trade relationships are entirely parasitic on their part, and international mechanisms for correcting imbalances have failed to improve the situation. To involve China in a central role in something as massive and economically vital as CHSR would be...the only word for it is "idiotic." For every dollar they "invested," they would suck out five and still do shoddy work - it's their M.O. We should consult with them, study what they're doing (both successes and mistakes), but go with Europe.

[Gordo]

Originally Posted by pesto

PI: true but you miss the point. The Chinese and Japanese were not intereted in equity and wanted federal guarantees on the state's or other local body's obligations under the agreement. If they believed in CA HSR's ability to pay for services and product they wouldn't be concerned about this and perhaps would want to be involved in operations, maintenance or repair on a JV basis. But not a word about this in the articles I saw.

I think their skepticism probably has a lot more to do with the political parts of the project, rather than a doubt whether HSR can make money on the route. Would you invest in something that doesn't have any certainty yet for stations and routing? I think that it would be a totally different ballgame if tomorrow it was announced that X amount of state and federal funding was guaranteed (regardless of how much private funding comes in), along with some kind of guarantee that lawsuits, etc on the route were over. End legal and financing limbo and you might be surprised at the willingness of others to invest.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by Gordo

End legal and financing limbo and you might be surprised at the willingness of others to invest.

You think maybe that's why progress seems to be rapidly moving on the CAHSR and maybe not as much on the others proposed in the US?

[RAlossi]

Originally Posted by PragmaticIdealist

1. No foreign government will ever be allowed to take an equity interest in a multibillion-dollar piece of American infrastructure.

You really are an idealist. I agree that the state of today's infrastructure funding environment on alternate modes of transportation are insane... however, our own government doesn't have the political will or even the built-in know-how to get the job done. If China or Japan or Germany or South Korea are our only way to get it done, then so be it. I think we're all in for quite a shock when a foreign government DOES end up funding the system. It would have been unimaginable 20, 30, and 40 years ago. This is how far our place in the world has fallen.

I don't see American corporations stepping up with funding or even showing an interest in HSR funding. I don't see the current Congress stepping up with the billions of dollars that it would take to finish the first phase. California can't fund the system itself. I see no reasonable alternative outside of a foreign government, unless you're aware of something I'm not. That means it's either CA gets its system and China gets a feather in its cap, or we send the dollars back to the feds and call it a day. I'm going with Option A. If America has to be shamed into starting a national dialog on transportation funding, that's just what has to happen.

[M II A II R II K]

California's high-speed rail project is on the right track


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011406824.html

The Jan. 12 editorial "Hit the brakes," criticizing California's high-speed rail plan, was shortsighted and parochial. If President Dwight D. Eisenhower had waited until he had all the cash on hand, all the lines drawn on a map and all the naysayers on board, America wouldn't have an interstate highway system. We stand at a similar crossroads today when it comes to high-speed rail.

Because of the leadership of President Obama, our children and grandchildren will benefit from a high-speed rail system that connects 80 percent of Americans and keeps us competitive with other leading nations. High-speed rail will revitalize America's manufacturing sector, spur economic development and create green, high-wage jobs for tens of thousands.

The people of California understand this, which is why they approved a nearly $10 billion bond measure to build a high-speed rail system in their state. The Obama administration is proud to support California's pioneering plan with a $3.6 billion investment that will jump-start the project by funding the first section of the corridor ready to be built, in the Central Valley.

.....

Rebuttal to: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...011106259.html

[pesto]

Useless PR speak: "Crossroads"; "naysayers"; "competitive"; "revitalize"; "create green, high-wage jobs", etc. Didn't they forget "the glorious leadership of our beloved leader, Father-President Obama"? This is another example of how it is possible to cut 30 percent of the federal budget without losing a bit of productivity.

A little thin on facts, support, or argumentation. Otherwise, a nice job.

[drifting sun]

Shut up, Randal.

[jamesinclair]

Originally Posted by pesto

This is another example of how it is possible to cut 30 percent of the federal budget without losing a bit of productivity..

It's amazing how much idiocy can be condensed in such a small place.

[Busy Bee]

Pesto's positions, which seem to run about 75-100% anti prevalent thinking on this forum, seem peculiar - maybe akin to a white racist hanging out on afrocentric forums "just to chat."

Why are you even here? If you're hanging out just to stir up trouble and get off on it, hit the road - you love roads, right?

[northbay]

pesto has been trolling a long time now. don't forget you can 'ignore' people on the forum!

surprised nobody posted anything about this:

“We’ll put up half the money for California HSR” says Japan’s Ambassador to the United States
Jan 15th, 2011 | Posted by Dennis Lytton

Yesterday I attended the Japanese government sponsored high speed rail seminar in Los Angeles. Led by the Japan International Transport Institute (JITI) and their country’s passenger rail operators and manufactures, the conference was an impressive push for California HSR to utilize Japanese knowledge, equipment, and perhaps most critically, financing.

Japan’s ambassador to the United States, Ichiro Fujisaki, was in Los Angeles from Washington, DC for the conference. Ambassador Fujisaki’s opening remarks to the conference were a forceful call for us to use Japanese know-how and equipment for our high speed rail. Most extraordinarily, the ambassador stated that he believes Japan will pay for up to half of the cost of the California’s HSR.

This is significant of course as we try to find dollars to complete our system. While Fujisaki’s comments of course don’t bind the Japanese government, its railways, or the Japan Bank for International Cooperation (JBIC, the likely vehicle for California HSR financing as I’ll explain below) it is nonetheless a significant statement. Japan’s highest ranking diplomat would not make such a statement lightly. Furthermore, there is every reason to believe that such cooperation on HSR between the US and Japan is very much in our bi-lateral national security interests.

...

JR East President and Chairman of Japan’s Council for Global Promotion of Railways Satoshi Seino explained that the state owned Japan Bank for International Cooperation has recently been authorized to invest in high-speed rail and urban rail in the U.S. and other developed countries. Their presentation suggested that the loan terms would be long and the interest rate would be set at a quarter percent over the LIBOR rate (an interbank interest rate).

Executives from several of Japan’s Shinkansen operating railway companies and train manufacturer Kawasaki followed. Some highlights from their presentations included:

* Mixed Use Development – Land use planning and economic development of station areas has been an integral part of HSR development from the beginning in Japan. Examples of both infill and greenfield station developments there were illustrated. Useful parallels to Los Angeles Union Station and Fresno’s future HSR station were made.
* Earthquake Design Countermeasures – They are extensive in the Japanese system and we can be confident that being on a California HSR train will be one of the safest places to be when the big one hits.
* Integration of Conventional Branch Lines into HSR Operations – The Japanese practice of trains uncoupling cars at intermediate stations and having one of the cars proceed down the “conventional” railroad (at conventional speeds) was discussed. This would certainly be possible here. In a way it would be easier since HSR and conventional railroads would use the same gauge (4 ft. 8.5 in.) whereas Shinkansen uses a different gauge than the “legacy” railways in Japan. However, the lack of electrification on American railways would make this harder. Down the San Joaquin corridor and even the LA Metrolink/Surfliner corridors would be candidates for this kind of one-seat operation.
* Technology Transfer – Kawasaki Heavy Industries (which already has two plants in the US for conventional railcar manufacture) as well as the JR operating companies’ representatives all expressed a strong willingness to transfer their expertise to this country. This would be accomplished through the development of American parts suppliers, final assembly in the U.S., and pre-training of trainset maintenance staff. Kawasaki even expressed a desire to retool American auto parts suppliers to HSR parts suppliers.
* FRA Compliance – Kawasaki asserts that their efSET (2) proposed train for export will “comply with FRA requirements”. Whether this is the current FRA requirements for inefficient overbuilt HSR trains (Acela) or upcoming sensible regulations remains to be seen.

(All the presentations are supposed to be on JITI’s website soon).

...I find that sovereign investment in our HSR system from Japan and also France, for instance, to be in keeping with out national security and foreign policy goals. Chinese investment, in contrast, seems more problematic foreign policy-wise. Japan and Western Europe are our long standing allies in the world and they largely share our values with regards to democracy and civil society.

I “feel good” about a enlisting Japanese help in getting California and this country moving into the 21st century.

source: http://www.cahsrblog.com/2011/01/%E2...united-states/

[northbay]

glad to hear obama mention ca hsr during the state of the union. when the speech ended one of the people who asked for his autograph said he was so-and-so from ca hsr and obama plugs it again, though its kinda hard to hear with all the people talking.

[CyberEric]

Nice. And if the Japanese are going to fund half of it, what are we waiting for?!

[electricron]

Originally Posted by CyberEric

Nice. And if the Japanese are going to fund half of it, what are we waiting for?!

Aren't we waiting for Japan to actually grant the money?

Their money comes with strings attached, like committing to buy their HSR trains and controls, with their management personnel controlling the purse strings..

[RAlossi]

Originally Posted by electricron

Aren't we waiting for Japan to actually grant the money?

Their money comes with strings attached, like committing to buy their HSR trains and controls, with their management personnel controlling the purse strings..

lol, if someone can show me an all-American company or government entity with the know-how and technology to build HSR, I might even raise an eyebrow. As it stands, our domestic knowledge is limited. Any tech we buy will have to come from Japan, China, Germany, France, Spain, etc. The best we can really hope for is assembly and construction jobs here. The train has already left the station on this issue, I'm afraid.