Tucson Development Thread

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by farmerk

I know of a family along with their neighbors who had their houses bought by the U of A. They were elated because U of A bought their houses above market rate. They moved out to a nicer place and a bigger house. U of A needs to demolish their houses to pave way for a garage. Eminent domain at work.

I'm not a big fan of multiple crosstown freeways in Tucson. I'd be happy to have only one. Tucson will eventually need to have at least one crosstown freeway - a piece of I-11.

btw, it's now 30+ floor buildings downtown.

Not everyone is happy to see their house razed, particularly if it has been in the family for generations... however land-use needs change and evolve and it is necessary for cities to grow and develop.

A road like Ft. Lowell with mostly low rent commercial properties along side it would be a good candidate. Connect to Tanque Verde and then south to I-10 along Houghton. I wonder if economics is keeping it from being built. It would be very convenience and alleviate traffic, but how much growth will it create? That part of town is fully developed to the density the people living there want.

As for I-11, the hope is to come in West of the Tucson mountains, turn East just South of TIA (connecting to I-19), and hook up with I-10 probably around Port of Tucson.

[Thirsty]

Hey Farmerk, just to spark some conversation; will this 30+ tower be commercial or residential. And where is it going to be?

My guess is residential. IIRC, those towers west of Mill in Tempe are just shy of 30 floors. Those filled up nicely, even though the guy went broke building them.

Or maybe a third option, gather all those government workers West of Church Ave into one 30+ tower, and open up the West end to mixed use development. Never gonna happen, but it would be nice.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Thirsty

Hey Farmerk, just to spark some conversation; will this 30+ tower be commercial or residential. And where is it going to be?

My guess is residential. IIRC, those towers west of Mill in Tempe are just shy of 30 floors. Those filled up nicely, even though the guy went broke building them.

Or maybe a third option, gather all those government workers West of Church Ave into one 30+ tower, and open up the West end to mixed use development. Never gonna happen, but it would be nice.

Bingo! Government building! Local, state and federal in one 30+ or even 40+ building. In Tucson that's not impossible. Too many government buildings downtown. Sell the old gov't buildings for other developments such as another 40+ floor building. It's been talked about for years. So I would see it happening.

Just like an I-11 , the gov't building will be paid mostly by the Feds and state -Another reason why I prefer ramming I-11 inside Tucson proper now. Why have an I-11 and a separate crosstown freeway when you can fuse them into one? COT does not have the leadership nor spine to propose an I-11 crosstown freeway...will have to wait for the Feds to initiate this.

There's no shortage of buildings and houses in Tucson that are easily razed with or without eminent domain since most of Tucson is butt ugly and stripped malled. I'd oppose razing houses if they look something like a Victorian house or a beaux art apt building .

[farmerk]

From this new movement , Expand Reid Park , I was led to this site .

Get rid of the golf course in Reid Park, Tucson will get high end apts and condos around it. The mattress lovin golfers will just have to drive their Buick to El Rio Golf..this will save this place financially. Personally, I'd turn El Rio Golf course into another park surrounded by high end apts and condos but we'll just have to wait for the mattress lovin hippies obsessed with the 60's to die out.

Who's gonna live in these high end apts? Retirees (not the mattress lovin ones), second home for the rich, Californians, New Yorkers etc... I see a demand from these groups. One of the main reason they want something like this in Tucson is that Tucson lacks the wrath of Mother Nature. COT needs to be more aggressive in giving permits to build high end high quality buildings from NON-Local Developers.

Here's NYC's High Line site . Unused elevated track turned into a park in NYC. What to do with the unused dry river beds in Tucson? Build a park IN IT. We'll have more buildings lined in these dry river beds. COT just need to reroute it's floods to existing washes.

Tucson can create more revenue, pull itself out of constant poverty and save the Saguaro Cactus at the same time by green urbanizing. It's possible to urbanized Tucson because it's small (and mostly ugly) compared to Phoenix. I don't mind urbanizing Phoenix but the place is just gigantic. At least 50 percent of Tucson turned into a dense urban mecca - that's what I meant about urbanizing Tucson.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by farmerk

From this new movement , Expand Reid Park , I was led to this site .

Get rid of the golf course in Reid Park, Tucson will get high end apts and condos around it. The mattress lovin golfers will just have to drive their Buick to El Rio Golf..this will save this place financially. Personally, I'd turn El Rio Golf course into another park surrounded by high end apts and condos but we'll just have to wait for the mattress lovin hippies obsessed with the 60's to die out.

Who's gonna live in these high end apts? Retirees (not the mattress lovin ones), second home for the rich, Californians, New Yorkers etc... I see a demand from these groups. One of the main reason they want something like this in Tucson is that Tucson lacks the wrath of Mother Nature. COT needs to be more aggressive in giving permits to build high end high quality buildings from NON-Local Developers.

Here's NYC's High Line site . Unused elevated track turned into a park in NYC. What to do with the unused dry river beds in Tucson? Build a park IN IT. We'll have more buildings lined in these dry river beds. COT just need to reroute it's floods to existing washes.

Tucson can create more revenue, pull itself out of constant poverty and save the Saguaro Cactus at the same time by green urbanizing. It's possible to urbanized Tucson because it's small (and mostly ugly) compared to Phoenix. I don't mind urbanizing Phoenix but the place is just gigantic. At least 50 percent of Tucson turned into a dense urban mecca - that's what I meant about urbanizing Tucson.

Mattress-loving hippies have done more for real creativity and the urban pulse than just about any other demographic this side of gays and Jane Jacobs. You want a boring city with yuppies and condos? Phoenix is 110 miles to the north! The real trick is not attracting dullards in BMWs. It's getting people who love music, art, poetry, nature, and the weird. Almost every city in the West worth visiting has possessed this crucial demographic, from San Francisco to Portland Santa Fe, Seattle, and Denver. What cities don't you see this creativity? Well, Phoenix, of course, which may be the worst city in the West if not the country. Then there's Wichita, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Bakersfield, and Provo.

In the 1970s when Tucson was at its apex (I pity those of you who never saw it), hippies had planted the seeds of a great urban mecca. Sadly, the local Republican establishment (Jim Click, Don Diamond, et al) killed it. And since then Tucson has looked more and more like a suburb of Phoenix. The last thing Tucson needs is to look even more like a suburb.

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by farmerk

Here's NYC's High Line site . Unused elevated track turned into a park in NYC. What to do with the unused dry river beds in Tucson? Build a park IN IT. We'll have more buildings lined in these dry river beds. COT just need to reroute it's floods to existing washes.

There is nowhere to reroute that water, it is the main drainage. Of course tunnels could be laid to take the water away. But if the river bed were widened and gently sloped (or terrace to slow erosion) Tucson could have a nice usable park. Think of the flood basins we have around Tucson and Phoenix that are used as parks the other 99% of days. The river beds could be like that only stretched out linearly.

[combusean]

Indian Bend Wash in Scottsdale is a drainage corridor and a park. No reason to suggest the same couldn't happen with Tucson's dry riverbeds.

[Ted Lyons]

soleri, great post. Seriously, though, blocking a few of our forum members will save you (and others) a lot of heartache.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by farmerk

There's no shortage of buildings and houses in Tucson that are easily razed with or without eminent domain since most of Tucson is butt ugly and stripped malled. I'd oppose razing houses if they look something like a Victorian house or a beaux art apt building .

Thus the point I was making. Most lower-class (read: poor) people are not going to afford to live in a Victorian house. So we fight to save the houses of the well-off, meanwhile the poor are on their own and we just push them into denser and denser slums.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by farmerk

From this new movement , Expand Reid Park , I was led to this site .

Get rid of the golf course in Reid Park, Tucson will get high end apts and condos around it. The mattress lovin golfers will just have to drive their Buick to El Rio Golf..this will save this place financially. Personally, I'd turn El Rio Golf course into another park surrounded by high end apts and condos but we'll just have to wait for the mattress lovin hippies obsessed with the 60's to die out.

Who's gonna live in these high end apts? Retirees (not the mattress lovin ones), second home for the rich, Californians, New Yorkers etc... I see a demand from these groups. One of the main reason they want something like this in Tucson is that Tucson lacks the wrath of Mother Nature. COT needs to be more aggressive in giving permits to build high end high quality buildings from NON-Local Developers.

Here's NYC's High Line site . Unused elevated track turned into a park in NYC. What to do with the unused dry river beds in Tucson? Build a park IN IT. We'll have more buildings lined in these dry river beds. COT just need to reroute it's floods to existing washes.

Tucson can create more revenue, pull itself out of constant poverty and save the Saguaro Cactus at the same time by green urbanizing. It's possible to urbanized Tucson because it's small (and mostly ugly) compared to Phoenix. I don't mind urbanizing Phoenix but the place is just gigantic. At least 50 percent of Tucson turned into a dense urban mecca - that's what I meant about urbanizing Tucson.

How do you know that just by getting rid of the golf course (by the way, there are two courses there and they are only proposing getting rid of the southern one), that suddenly high-end apartments will appear on the fringes or the park? Have you done market research? Have you seen studies that suggest this?

Seriously - I love your enthusiasm about making Tucson bigger and denser. It's something we all share. We know you want 20+ (sorry, now 30+) story buildings in the core of Tucson (mainly because you talk about it in practically every post), but where is the market for it? You don't just build to build. There has to be a need, a want, a desire - a market. If that market isn't there then it won't get built. We've seen densification and growth in the core - in downtown. Do I wish it was more and built higher - yes, but I'll take what they can give us in the meantime. You've got to have reasonable expectations and suggestions. The golf course(s) at Reid Park should not be closed. Those two courses make money - and we just got into this new deal with the private company who took over the city courses. Give it a chance to work. So, you don't like golf. Well, there are plenty of us who do (and at 35 I guess I'm just a "Mattress loving hippy" [whatever that is] at heart). Reid Park is nice and there are plenty of improvements that can be made to the existing infrastructure of space to make it better. We don't need to expand it. It already is Tucson's "Central Park", with the golf courses, the ponds, the band shell, the zoo, playgrounds, baseball fields, rose garden, and open green spaces. It's easy to talk about building this 20+ story building or building these high-end apartments and condos when it isn't your money. Two years ago I wish my Cardinals had spent $250 million to keep Albert Pujols - because it wasn't my money. They didn't and they're better of without him. Tucson is a great place to live. It has it's problems, of course. Every city does. But I see the city trying to fix some of these - the roads are being repaved for starters (Kolb is so much better). Things are happening downtown and in the city core. Give it a chance. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

How do you know that just by getting rid of the golf course (by the way, there are two courses there and they are only proposing getting rid of the southern one), that suddenly high-end apartments will appear on the fringes or the park? Have you done market research? Have you seen studies that suggest this?

Seriously - I love your enthusiasm about making Tucson bigger and denser. It's something we all share. We know you want 20+ (sorry, now 30+) story buildings in the core of Tucson (mainly because you talk about it in practically every post), but where is the market for it? You don't just build to build. There has to be a need, a want, a desire - a market. If that market isn't there then it won't get built. We've seen densification and growth in the core - in downtown. Do I wish it was more and built higher - yes, but I'll take what they can give us in the meantime. You've got to have reasonable expectations and suggestions. The golf course(s) at Reid Park should not be closed. Those two courses make money - and we just got into this new deal with the private company who took over the city courses. Give it a chance to work. So, you don't like golf. Well, there are plenty of us who do (and at 35 I guess I'm just a "Mattress loving hippy" [whatever that is] at heart). Reid Park is nice and there are plenty of improvements that can be made to the existing infrastructure of space to make it better. We don't need to expand it. It already is Tucson's "Central Park", with the golf courses, the ponds, the band shell, the zoo, playgrounds, baseball fields, rose garden, and open green spaces. It's easy to talk about building this 20+ story building or building these high-end apartments and condos when it isn't your money. Two years ago I wish my Cardinals had spent $250 million to keep Albert Pujols - because it wasn't my money. They didn't and they're better of without him. Tucson is a great place to live. It has it's problems, of course. Every city does. But I see the city trying to fix some of these - the roads are being repaved for starters (Kolb is so much better). Things are happening downtown and in the city core. Give it a chance. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Well said!

[omarainza]

theoretically speaking: if I won the lottery and wanted to build a building JUST BECAUSE and I had the money, could I? what would keep me from buying a patch of land, designing a multi story apartment building (I guess i'm an architect now too lol), get the zoning, and then just renting out the space at affordable apt rates (think the families that we'll destroy the homes for I-11, can afford).

idk I cant help but feel farmerk's pain. im all for if you build they will come, to some extent. having visited Mexico, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, these are POOR places and some of the slums have 10 story or so buildings (ugly for sure) that house POOR people. now im sure there must be SOME kind of gvmt subsidy going on there, but they couldn't possibly be able to shell out what the mainstream highrise apts charge to live in these low/midrises would they have been in lets say NYC or LA, we assuming highrise=luxury. thing is investors charge top dollar because they furnish everything with high quality fixtures, streamlines chic kitchens and living rooms, and state of the art gyms/rec centers. not everyone needs those and dt has them anyways, encourage some foot traffic

I feel like someone should be able to build an apt building (think up instead of out) that stacks lower income housing and maybe the city only pays for the outside part to mask what would be this: or even Tucson house on oracle for example, with an attractive outside, maybe glass curtain or art deco skin like this. or of course easy to say without a dollar to speak for it and of course plans for a real building downtown does include MY dollars.... and everyone ELSE in the city's dollars for that matter, which is why those plans get scrapped: not everyone wants those dollars there. why pay for someone elses property when I have to avoid a pothole to get into my driveway and a sidewalk would be nice

its all about looking for that SOMEONE who has that vision, and unless you got some friend with deep pockets, anything publicly funded shouldn't even be thought of, the city wastes money on studies and plans and sh*t for the voters to say no. maybe that's why the UA dorms got built, those companies had $$$ and its not me paying for that pool on the roof I cant swim in (at least I don't think I did... someone enlighten me)

and farmerk, as much as we ALL want that 30+ building (actually I don't, I think the current height is nice for our city downtown but more DENSITY is key, a couple other 20-30 floor eye catchers would be nice at max, we don't need dt L.A.) I don't think everyone needs it rubbed in their place, make it your sig or something so its there but not part of ur convo. no sense in hoping for something that will NEVER happen... check out my post with the Century Tower here: http://www.skyscraperpage.com/forum/...87835&page=191 great use for that patch of grass and its JUST a crappy swapmeet with nothing of interest (least to me). apparently the people who voted against it felt that swapmeet is better there, I don't see them buying much desert art, native jewelry, and wind chimes. its never going to happen
the forum:

you:

[omarainza]

sorry for rambling... on topic, does anyone have any pictures of the finished hub? ive been meaning to go but work has been hectic, I wanna see JUST how ugly it is D: !!!

[farmerk]

Thanks for the response. But sorry for not responding back I have to tend to a business trip away from civilization for a while. Anyway, I appreciate to some of the posters who are bold enough to be creative and post their opinions in this forum. I think a while back a few of you thirst for a tower including me. Here's one project that's in the works - Phoenix Towers, a green power generating tower . This tower is ugly in my opinion, btw.

Let me add. There's a poster in this forum who is a classic Tucson NIMBY - pretending to be a fan of skyscrapers and urban development planted by Neighborhood Association. The way Tucson NIMBY's work is they speak softly pretending to be your friend diverting your opinion to the point nothing gets done. He he.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by soleri

Mattress-loving hippies have done more for real creativity and the urban pulse than just about any other demographic this side of gays and Jane Jacobs. You want a boring city with yuppies and condos? Phoenix is 110 miles to the north! The real trick is not attracting dullards in BMWs. It's getting people who love music, art, poetry, nature, and the weird. Almost every city in the West worth visiting has possessed this crucial demographic, from San Francisco to Portland Santa Fe, Seattle, and Denver. What cities don't you see this creativity? Well, Phoenix, of course, which may be the worst city in the West if not the country. Then there's Wichita, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Bakersfield, and Provo.

In the 1970s when Tucson was at its apex (I pity those of you who never saw it), hippies had planted the seeds of a great urban mecca. Sadly, the local Republican establishment (Jim Click, Don Diamond, et al) killed it. And since then Tucson has looked more and more like a suburb of Phoenix. The last thing Tucson needs is to look even more like a suburb.

I agree with you my friend. Republican suburb strip mall architecture is one of the worst kinds!

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

soleri, great post. Seriously, though, blocking a few of our forum members will save you (and others) a lot of heartache.

Awwww. Poor baby.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

Thus the point I was making. Most lower-class (read: poor) people are not going to afford to live in a Victorian house. So we fight to save the houses of the well-off, meanwhile the poor are on their own and we just push them into denser and denser slums.

That's not good. Pushing the poor to denser slums. Who say's they have to live in a Victorian house. It's their choice if they want to live in a denser slum. The folks that I knew who got a good deal via eminent domain decided to move in a nicer neighborhood.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

... Rome wasn't built in a day.

That's true.

[bthom3000]

Originally Posted by soleri

Mattress-loving hippies have done more for real creativity and the urban pulse than just about any other demographic this side of gays and Jane Jacobs. You want a boring city with yuppies and condos? Phoenix is 110 miles to the north! The real trick is not attracting dullards in BMWs. It's getting people who love music, art, poetry, nature, and the weird. Almost every city in the West worth visiting has possessed this crucial demographic, from San Francisco to Portland Santa Fe, Seattle, and Denver. What cities don't you see this creativity? Well, Phoenix, of course, which may be the worst city in the West if not the country. Then there's Wichita, Lubbock, Oklahoma City, Bakersfield, and Provo.

In the 1970s when Tucson was at its apex (I pity those of you who never saw it), hippies had planted the seeds of a great urban mecca. Sadly, the local Republican establishment (Jim Click, Don Diamond, et al) killed it. And since then Tucson has looked more and more like a suburb of Phoenix. The last thing Tucson needs is to look even more like a suburb.

It wasn't Jim Click and Diamond who have consistently raised property taxes in Pima county and driven out business. It wasn't those two who killed baseball here either.
Oh wait hippies don't care for sports so as long as they have their shitty, run down concert areas and $1 a year rent artist studios, which bring no money to this city, they'll consider this town as equal to Austin. The problem isn't the republicans. Not even so much the democrats. Its the city leaders having no balls to deal with these hippies that don't want anything new built here.
You mention San Fran and Denver, Portland and Seattle. Have you been there? Their downtowns are built up and full of BUSINESS! We attract no business here. We can have all the "weird" but who's going to pay them?
Tucson needs at least one large business downtown to make it like the other cities.
With no new capital Tucson will be stuck in the poor, money-less rut it currently finds its self.
I say enough with these NIMBYS and lets finally concentrate on making Tucson a business friendly city. Change the zoning to allow for more mixed use development all over the city. Change the parking requirements. Build a significant mass transit that is clean and attractive to more people.
Stop blaming jim click and diamond who have done more for this city than any one of our city leaders ever could.
By the way, i want examples of exactly how these two men made tucson like phoenix. Please enlighten me.

[southtucsonboy77]

I for one enjoy farmerk's posts...I love the enthusiasm...and I too yearn for that skyline changing skyscraper...whether it be 20+ or 30+ floors. Let's all be considerate.

What Tucson needs is balance. The Phoenix-style cookie-cutter subdivisions that are inundated throughout the Valley is a bit too much. The NIMBYism and mettling NAs here in Tucson are just sickening. A city can urbanize and densify...while at the same time keeping its character and uniqueness. The greatest cities in the world have historical buidlings, districts, and/or neighborhoods surrounded by density and skyscrapers. Here in Tucson, even in DOWNTOWN Tucson, we'll have some crazed group trying to stop something. The "Warehouse" district...the "Bus Riders" group...the "bums and slum at the Main Library" group. When I worked for RTA/PAG, the biggest expense and waste of money for the 22nd and Broadway roadway project were the public meetings. The % of money thrown to those meetings were statistically through the roof to any roadway project in America. Why? Because WE let them.

So instead of infill projects...we have empty, broken glass sparkling, weed growing empty lots. To many Tucson locals,especially the Mexican Americans, the 70s was not the heyday of Tucson...it was the beginning of the end. That's when Urban Renewal killed downtown Tucson. The heydays were the 50s and 60s when downtown was the place to be.