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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 9:22 PM
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^Sponsorship on this magnitude happens all the time, from attaching names to LRT stops in Salt Lake to sponsored stops announced by sponsor on streetcar lines in the PacNW (Next Stop... South Lake Union Park... sponsored by... UW Children's Hospital.). In fact, there's an entire alignment segment of about a mile and a half in North Portland that is owned by development groups (originally Bechtel) that had two stops put in anticipation of their new businesses, the first of which didn't open until late 2006/early 2007, years after the opening of the line.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2009, 9:54 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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It sounds like it won't be grade separated. While I guess that it is good that this is becoming a sure thing, I would rather have grade-separated LRT in the center of the road. Woodward needs to be made more pedestrian friendly, and having 9 lanes of traffic doesn't help.
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2009, 3:37 AM
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Yes, it's becoming more apparent that the private plan to connect central Detroit with downtown Detroit is more-or-less a glorified street car. I'm not sure that's a bad.

The public, center-lane system (which is still moving forward, BTW) sounds like it's going to be an honest-to-goodness light rail system. I don't see how these two couldn't coexist as long as they find an efficient way to tie the two, together. Though, I have to admit that it's not ideal, because it'd involve a transfer from one system to the other essentially.

The way I view it is that the LTR line will link the northern suburbs (eventually) with the central Detroit (New Center) intermodal station that is planned. From there, you can take M1-RAIL downtown, or get on the commuter line, or come at it from the other direction of coming into Detroit on the commuter line and either jumping on the light rail to get to the northern suburbs, or the M1-RAIL to downtown. Either way, it seems that the New Center intermodal station that's been in the works for some time will become the distributor/hub of the system.

That's kind of where the confusion lies, but nothing seems to be pointing to downtown being the main hub (or at least the only main hub) of any regional system. That'd require the construction of new rail infrastructure, wouldn't it?
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  #24  
Old Posted May 4, 2009, 7:12 PM
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Anything new on this? I haven't heard anything.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 9:18 PM
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Deal with city gives Detroit’s light-rail backers green light

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/apps/pb...plate=printart

By Bill Shea

Backers of a privately-funded $125 million light-rail line on Detroit’s Woodward Avenue have reached an accord with the city’s transportation department to move ahead with their version of the project.

The Detroit Department of Transportation’s proposed $371 million “Detroit Transit Options for Growth” included different types of trains and a center-of-street layout for Woodward, putting the two projects initially at loggerheads.

Now, the private plan, known as the M1 Rail, is likely to develop its 3.4 mile curb-side system as planned, and have it connect into the DTOG system north of the New Center Area — or whatever public train system that comes to fruition.

“This is in no way competition,” said M1 Rail CEO Matt Cullen said, adding that he’s been in talks with Norman White, the city’s CFO who was previously the MDOT director, a position that remains vacant.

Messages were left for White and for DDOT assistant director Lovevett Williams.

North of the M1 Rail’s terminus at the New Center area, the line is expected to converge into a higher speed center-of-street system that moves at a faster commuter rate with fewer stops, Cullen said.

That would match DDOT’s original plan, which proposes a line extending to the State Fairgrounds at Eight Mile Road.

Since the closely guarded M1 Rail project first came to light in Crain’s last year, it was obvious the two projects would have to reconcile because the DTOG plan included the same portion of Woodward.

However, the city’s plan relies on federal funding that hasn’t been applied for because Detroit doesn’t have the required matching money — leading to speculation about the project’s viability.

The nonprofit M1-Rail, which got needed legislative approvals and state operational funding mechanisms put in place in January, includes money from private backers, foundations and corporations, and will run a 12-stop route from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard in New Center, running past major business, cultural, medical, educational and sporting destinations.
THE MONEY
These are funding and cost projections for the M1 Rail project:

Funding
• Private donations/station sponsorships: $30 million
• Downtown Development Authority: $9 million
• Kresge Foundation: $35 million
• Utility/in kind: $4 million
• Vehicle lease/financing: $32 million
• New markets tax credits: $15 million
Total: $125 million

Costs
• Engineering: $6 million
• Construction: $65 million
• Vehicles: $32 million
• Contingency: $6 million
• Management/reserves: $12 million
• Net interest during construction: $12 million
Total: $125 million

Source: M1 Rail
Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman.

Cullen is also president and COO of Gilbert’s Rock Enterprises holding company.

The project is under the supervision of the nonprofit Downtown Detroit Partnership, a private-public partnership of corporate and civic leaders, led by chairman Roger Penske. It’s a key element, but separate, from a $10 billion three-county regional transit plan being developed by transit czar John Hertel for the elected executives of Wayne, Oakland, Macomb counties and Detroit.

The M1 Rail will eventually be turned over to the authority that runs the three-county system. Hertel orchestrated the secret meetings of the private backers for nearly two years before turning the project over the downtown partnership.

The M1 Rail project was discussed Thursday morning with reporters at the Detroit Athletic Club.

Here are some of the other highlights:

• The goal is to begin construction by the end of the year and have the line running no later than 18 months later. “It’s an aggressive timeline,” Cullen said. Survey crews are already at work.

• The project’s executives are in discussions with “two or three” financiers to assemble the money aspect of the rail system, Cullen said. He declined to reveal names, but said they would be banks that have an extensive local presence. Because the project’s funding is coming in over time, money will need to be financed up front.

• Ten individuals, foundations or corporations have donated at least $3 million each, Cullen said. (See related box, on the project’s funding and cost estimates.)

• The line will be in the second lane from the curb, preserving parking along Woodward and co-mingled with traffic. Stations will protrude by the curbside and will include advertising and branding. “This is very much a pedestrian-friendly system,” Cullen said. The cars, which will be a hybrid between modern street cars and traditional light rail, will typically carry 100-125 people, and more than 200 during major events such as ballgames.

• The service will be available from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. with an estimated 75-cent toll that will be honor-based, meaning tickets are bought prior to boarding and are randomly checked during trips. There will be discounted tickets for students, seniors and frequent riders. Revenue fare is expected to account for just a small amount of the line’s operating funding, with the rest coming from state subsidy’s and taxes captured from development along the route, as authorized by the legislation signed into law in January.

• The project will require some level of approval from the city, and cooperation, but Cullen said it’s not completely certain yet that the city council would have to sign off the rail line. Woodward is a state highway, so the Michigan Department of Transportation has primary oversight, but the city has a role, too. He also said Mayor Dave Bing is aware of the project, and will be getting more in-depth briefing soon.

• There are no plans to seek federal stimulus money for the M1 Rail, but Cullen said it’s cost could be used as the local match portion of any publicly funded extension of the line and as part of the larger regional transit project.

• The rail company will attempt to broker a deal to piggyback another city’s production run of train cars, Cullen said. There are just a handful of light rail vehicle manufacturers, and car orders often are for dozens or hundreds, so Cullen said a manufacturer might be willing to add Detroit’s dozen or so units onto a pre-existing order. Notable manufacturers include Germany’s Siemens Transportations Systems, Bombardier Transportation in Montreal and Oregon Iron Works Inc. in Clackamas, Ore.

• The line’s route is still being studied. Because of the physical restrictions involved in a light-rail vehicle’s turning radius, it’s possible the line may switch at Campus Martius to Washington Avenue to form a loop that extends to Jefferson Avenue and back to Woodward, Cullen said. Another option is a train stopping, the driver walking to the other end of the vehicle and simply driving from the other end from a Y-shaped terminus. “We’re looking to understand what makes sense,” Cullen said.

• Henry Ford Hospital has expressed interest in a spur line connecting to the New Center Area stop.

Cullen also briefly addressed speculation that the private backers getting any direct financial gain from the project: No, they won’t. “It’s pure philanthropy by the private funders,” he said.

• The M1 Rail was originally called The Regional Area Initial Link, or TRAIL, but possibilities for new names are being studied.
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  #26  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 11:05 PM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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Quote:
North of the M1 Rail’s terminus at the New Center area, the line is expected to converge into a higher speed center-of-street system that moves at a faster commuter rate with fewer stops, Cullen said.
That's actually not a bad idea. While you get the slower, more pedestrian-friendly portion in the Greater Downtown area, you get the faster, more commuter-friendly portion north of that. I really like that idea. My only fear is that by having a lane of parking right next to the tracks will pose a safety concern. Someone might not see that the train is coming and open their door at the most inopportune time...

Quote:
• The goal is to begin construction by the end of the year and have the line running no later than 18 months later. “It’s an aggressive timeline,” Cullen said. Survey crews are already at work.
I really hope this does begin construction by the end of the year. Once the shovels are in the ground there's no turning back.

Quote:
• There are no plans to seek federal stimulus money for the M1 Rail, but Cullen said it’s cost could be used as the local match portion of any publicly funded extension of the line and as part of the larger regional transit project.
That's an interesting idea. I wonder how that would work out. The biggest problem facing the DDOT proposal is the local funding, so if this can be used to get the federal funding needed to extend the line to 8 Mile, then the DDOT line is looking a lot brighter. In fact, I think it would be a waste if they don't get matching federal money, even if it means using that money to extend the line along Jefferson Ave to Indian Village or up to the Boston-Edison area.

Quote:
• The line’s route is still being studied. Because of the physical restrictions involved in a light-rail vehicle’s turning radius, it’s possible the line may switch at Campus Martius to Washington Avenue to form a loop that extends to Jefferson Avenue and back to Woodward, Cullen said. Another option is a train stopping, the driver walking to the other end of the vehicle and simply driving from the other end from a Y-shaped terminus. “We’re looking to understand what makes sense,” Cullen said.
It would make the most sense to have a stop near the Rosa Parks terminal so people can easily transfer between the bus system and the streetcar system. I think the line should turn on to Washington Blvd with a stop near Rosa Parks, continue down Washington with a stop at Cobo and then turn onto Jefferson with the line terminating at the Renaissance Center.

Quote:
• The M1 Rail was originally called The Regional Area Initial Link, or TRAIL, but possibilities for new names are being studied.
I like the name DART. (Detroit Area Rapid Transit)
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  #27  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 3:56 AM
detmsp detmsp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
That's actually not a bad idea. While you get the slower, more pedestrian-friendly portion in the Greater Downtown area, you get the faster, more commuter-friendly portion north of that. I really like that idea. My only fear is that by having a lane of parking right next to the tracks will pose a safety concern. Someone might not see that the train is coming and open their door at the most inopportune time...
you know most cities have a set up like this where there is a high speed commuter friendly train outside downtown and a slower more pedestrian friendly train in downtown. the difference is, in most cities it's the same damn train! it just slows down.

Hud, I don't know if your idea about the line going by the transit center and the rencen is really possible... Can these things negotiate a 90 degree turn? and what about a left turn? do these things have the acceleration needed to quickly take advantage in a short break in oncoming traffic to make the turn?

this is one of those "well hey, it's better than nothing" situations... what we're going to end up with is going to look like we redneck engineered a train system out of someone else's discarded parts
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  #28  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 4:04 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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I got the impression that it would be the same line using the same trains, just at different speeds and in different lanes. Maybe I just read it wrong.
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  #29  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 4:36 AM
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LMich LMich is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detmsp View Post
... what we're going to end up with is going to look like we redneck engineered a train system out of someone else's discarded parts
That's been my worry with the privately-funded plan, in particular. That, and the secretiveness and lack of public input. I just hope the business community gets it right, and without any kind of public input that's all anyone can do. They said in Crain's that this project is 'purely philanthropic". I have my doubts about that, but even if I didn't good intentions does not a transit system make.

But, like you said, at this point, anything is preferrable over nothing.

Anyway...Crain's take on this:

Quote:

Deal with city gives Detroit’s light-rail backers green light

By Bill Shea / Crain's Detroit Business

May. 21, 2009

Backers of a privately-funded $125 million light-rail line on Detroit’s Woodward Avenue have reached an accord with the city’s transportation department to move ahead with their version of the project.

The Detroit Department of Transportation’s proposed $371 million “Detroit Transit Options for Growth” included different types of trains and a center-of-street layout for Woodward, putting the two projects initially at loggerheads.

Now, the private plan, known as the M1 Rail, is likely to develop its 3.4 mile curb-side system as planned, and have it connect into the DTOG system north of the New Center Area — or whatever public train system that comes to fruition.

“This is in no way competition,” said M1 Rail CEO Matt Cullen said, adding that he’s been in talks with Norman White, the city’s CFO who was previously the MDOT director, a position that remains vacant.

Messages were left for White and for DDOT assistant director Lovevett Williams.

North of the M1 Rail’s terminus at the New Center area, the line is expected to converge into a higher speed center-of-street system that moves at a faster commuter rate with fewer stops, Cullen said.

That would match DDOT’s original plan, which proposes a line extending to the State Fairgrounds at Eight Mile Road.

Since the closely guarded M1 Rail project first came to light in Crain’s last year, it was obvious the two projects would have to reconcile because the DTOG plan included the same portion of Woodward.

However, the city’s plan relies on federal funding that hasn’t been applied for because Detroit doesn’t have the required matching money — leading to speculation about the project’s viability.

The nonprofit M1-Rail, which got needed legislative approvals and state operational funding mechanisms put in place in January, includes money from private backers, foundations and corporations, and will run a 12-stop route from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard in New Center, running past major business, cultural, medical, educational and sporting destinations.Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman.

Cullen is also president and COO of Gilbert’s Rock Enterprises holding company.

The project is under the supervision of the nonprofit Downtown Detroit Partnership, a private-public partnership of corporate and civic leaders, led by chairman Roger Penske. It’s a key element, but separate, from a $10 billion three-county regional transit plan being developed by transit czar John Hertel for the elected executives of Wayne, Oakland, Macomb counties and Detroit.

The M1 Rail will eventually be turned over to the authority that runs the three-county system. Hertel orchestrated the secret meetings of the private backers for nearly two years before turning the project over the downtown partnership.

The M1 Rail project was discussed Thursday morning with reporters at the Detroit Athletic Club.

Here are some of the other highlights:

• The goal is to begin construction by the end of the year and have the line running no later than 18 months later. “It’s an aggressive timeline,” Cullen said. Survey crews are already at work.

• The project’s executives are in discussions with “two or three” financiers to assemble the money aspect of the rail system, Cullen said. He declined to reveal names, but said they would be banks that have an extensive local presence. Because the project’s funding is coming in over time, money will need to be financed up front.

• Ten individuals, foundations or corporations have donated at least $3 million each, Cullen said. (See related box, on the project’s funding and cost estimates.)

• The line will be in the second lane from the curb, preserving parking along Woodward and co-mingled with traffic. Stations will protrude by the curbside and will include advertising and branding. “This is very much a pedestrian-friendly system,” Cullen said. The cars, which will be a hybrid between modern street cars and traditional light rail, will typically carry 100-125 people, and more than 200 during major events such as ballgames.

• The service will be available from 6 a.m. to 11 p.m. with an estimated 75-cent toll that will be honor-based, meaning tickets are bought prior to boarding and are randomly checked during trips. There will be discounted tickets for students, seniors and frequent riders. Revenue fare is expected to account for just a small amount of the line’s operating funding, with the rest coming from state subsidy’s and taxes captured from development along the route, as authorized by the legislation signed into law in January.

• The project will require some level of approval from the city, and cooperation, but Cullen said it’s not completely certain yet that the city council would have to sign off the rail line. Woodward is a state highway, so the Michigan Department of Transportation has primary oversight, but the city has a role, too. He also said Mayor Dave Bing is aware of the project, and will be getting more in-depth briefing soon.

• There are no plans to seek federal stimulus money for the M1 Rail, but Cullen said it’s cost could be used as the local match portion of any publicly funded extension of the line and as part of the larger regional transit project.

• The rail company will attempt to broker a deal to piggyback another city’s production run of train cars, Cullen said. There are just a handful of light rail vehicle manufacturers, and car orders often are for dozens or hundreds, so Cullen said a manufacturer might be willing to add Detroit’s dozen or so units onto a pre-existing order. Notable manufacturers include Germany’s Siemens Transportations Systems, Bombardier Transportation in Montreal and Oregon Iron Works Inc. in Clackamas, Ore.

• The line’s route is still being studied. Because of the physical restrictions involved in a light-rail vehicle’s turning radius, it’s possible the line may switch at Campus Martius to Washington Avenue to form a loop that extends to Jefferson Avenue and back to Woodward, Cullen said. Another option is a train stopping, the driver walking to the other end of the vehicle and simply driving from the other end from a Y-shaped terminus. “We’re looking to understand what makes sense,” Cullen said.

• Henry Ford Hospital has expressed interest in a spur line connecting to the New Center Area stop.

Cullen also briefly addressed speculation that the private backers getting any direct financial gain from the project: No, they won’t. “It’s pure philanthropy by the private funders,” he said.

• The M1 Rail was originally called The Regional Area Initial Link, or TRAIL, but possibilities for new names are being studied.
Quote:

WHO’S WORKING ON WHAT

The following companies have deals to provide professionals services for the M1 Rail project:

Architecture

• Kansas City-based HOK Group Inc. (lead architect)
• Detroit-based Hamilton Anderson Associates, ConstrucTWO LLC and BEI Associates Inc.

Pre-construction

• Detroit-based Walbridge Aldinger

Mainline engineering

• San Francisco-based URS Corp., which has an office in Detroit
• LTK Engineering Services (Ambler, Pa.)
• Three Detroit-based subcontractors: Tucker, Young, Jackson, Tull Inc.; Metco Services Inc. and NTH Consultants Ltd.

Vehicle procurement

• LTK Engineering Services
Public relations, marketing and branding
• Eisbrenner Public Relations (Troy), The Bingman Group (Lansing) and Gyro Creative (Detroit).

Source: M1 Rail
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Last edited by LMich; May 22, 2009 at 5:45 AM.
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  #30  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hudkina View Post
I got the impression that it would be the same line using the same trains, just at different speeds and in different lanes. Maybe I just read it wrong.
after re-reading, i don't think the article makes it quite clear whether they have merged the systems or not... i made the assumption that they hadn't based on the following:

"have reached an accord with the city’s transportation department to move ahead with their version of the project."
Doesn't mention actually merging the projects

"and have it connect into the DTOG system north of the New Center Area — or whatever public train system that comes to fruition."
whatever public train system? if it was going to be the same system as m1 rail, we'd know what the system would be, it wouldn't just be "whatever system"

"North of the M1 Rail’s terminus at the New Center area, the line is expected to converge into a higher speed center-of-street system."
Terminus just sounds like the wrong word if the same system was actually to continue to 8 mile. Also, I can't think of a way for the train to move from the outside lane of the street into the median without cutting diagonally through traffic.

"The cars, which will be a hybrid between modern street cars and traditional light rail"
The fact that M1 rail isn't using real light rail cars makes me think it isn't going all the way to 8-mile



I know i said it's better than nothing, but i wonder if that's true... if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Even if that means it takes a few more years.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 9:35 AM
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I think it's simply poor writing and the author not really having any solid idea about rail transit, either that or M1 is purposefully be obfuscatory for whatever reason. I mean, in the line you've quoted about the terimus, the very next part of the sentence uses the verb "converge," which would imply a seamless system.

BTW, M1 isn't going to 8 Mile. That was never the plan. M1 was always supposed to end in New Center.

If I'm being honest, what it sounds like to me is that M1 outmanuevered DTOGS/DDOT, and that DTOGS/DDOT is bowing to whatever they come up with.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LMich View Post
I think it's simply poor writing and the author not really having any solid idea about rail transit, either that or M1 is purposefully be obfuscatory for whatever reason. I mean, in the line you've quoted about the terimus, the very next part of the sentence uses the verb "converge," which would imply a seamless system.

BTW, M1 isn't going to 8 Mile. That was never the plan. M1 was always supposed to end in New Center.

If I'm being honest, what it sounds like to me is that M1 outmanuevered DTOGS/DDOT, and that DTOGS/DDOT is bowing to whatever they come up with.
yeah i noticed the use of converge too. however that was really the only part of the article that made me think the two plans were actually combined. i guess we might have to wait for a better written article to know for sure!

What i came away with from the article wasn't that the two plans had been combined, rather i got that DTOG previously had been saying "don't build m1, it conflicts with our plan!" and now they're saying "ok, fine, go ahead and build it and we'll start our line where M1 ends in new center"

and i know M1 isn't going to 8 mile. when I wrote that something made me think m1 wasn't going to 8 mile, i meant it made me think that the DTOG plan hadn't been combined to expand the M1 system to 8 mile eventually.
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  #33  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 12:41 PM
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here's an article from the news: http://detnews.com/article/20090522/...-moves-forward


Quote:
The privately funded M-1 Rail, an approximately 3.4 mile, 12-stop route from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard, would be the "first phase" of a Detroit Department of Transportation's proposed $371 million project. That plan, the Detroit Transit Options for Growth, calls for a light rail to extend from Grand to Eight Mile, said Matthew Cullen, M-1 project president and CEO.
sounds like the two plans aren't merging if the light rail starts at grand
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  #34  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 4:29 PM
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It looks like the quote says that the private line will go from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard, and that the city's line will go from Grand Boulevard to 8 Mile.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 12:02 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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In that case, that's what I thought would originally happen. My original thought on "reconciliation" was that passengers coming in from the neighborhoods north of Grand Blvd would then have to transfer at the intermodal station planned for Woodward and Amsterdam and then take the streetcar downtown...

It would be nice to have that uninterrupted service though with the higher speeds north of Grand Blvd and the slower speeds south of Grand Blvd. the article specifically states "The cars...will be a hybrid between modern street cars and traditional light rail". That means that if it is a "hybrid" of the two, it seems like it would be able to function similarly to either type. But as you said, the train would have to cross traffic lanes to get from the curb to the center. Granted, if that happened in the middle of an intersection (such as Woodward and Grand Blvd) the train could do it while both directions are fully stopped. The Woodward/Grand Blvd intersection would be perfect in that it is nearly 150 ft from the south end of the intersection to the north end of the intersection, giving it more than enough clearance. But then if the train has to go with the traffic, it would have a problem if there was a car in front of it at the intersection. I don't know!

Last edited by hudkina; May 23, 2009 at 12:12 AM.
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  #36  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 2:53 AM
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Originally Posted by detmsp View Post
What i came away with from the article wasn't that the two plans had been combined, rather i got that DTOG previously had been saying "don't build m1, it conflicts with our plan!" and now they're saying "ok, fine, go ahead and build it and we'll start our line where M1 ends in new center"
That's exactly what I thought to when this was announced, yesterday. There doesn't seem to be any reconcilliation, rather it seems that DTOGS knew that they couldn't stop M1 from taking control of the Woodward to Grand section of what they'd planned.

It seems that all of this is a bunch of wrangling and posturing given that there is no regional authority, yet, and each organization and department is trying to get to the top of the heap. I'm just a bit disappointed that a public entity like DDOT in conjuction with DTOGS was pushed so easily out of the way. I don't think it needs to be said, but the best systems are those that are mandated to have input from the general public; it's not called 'mass' transit, for nothing.

That said, I do realize that DDOT has neither the wherewithal nor the talent to go as fast on this as the region needs them to. I mean, if they were, their wouldn't be a need for something supplemental like DTOGS to guid the whole thing.

I just hope this all turns out halfway decent.
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  #37  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 3:03 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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The problem though is where the "local" money would come from for DTOGS. Detroit certainly can't afford $150+ million to build a light rail line. I would rather have this basically "for sure" line than the possibility of a future line built by DDOT. And really, as this article points out, if this project is able to act as the local money that DDOT needs to get the federal money, then that makes it all the better.
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  #38  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 4:07 AM
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LMich LMich is offline
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Hud,

I made reference to the DDOT's inability to be the senior player, here:

Quote:
That said, I do realize that DDOT has neither the wherewithal
That said, the question that concerns some is whether anything is better than nothing in all cases, or at least in this case? I think it's a fair question.
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  #39  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 7:05 AM
hudkina hudkina is offline
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This is certainly better than nothing at all. If I'm a visitor staying in the Ren Cen and I want to go check out the DIA I would rather have a streetcar than nothing at all. If I'm arriving to Detroit via Amtrak to attend a show at Cobo I would rather have a streetcar than nothing at all. If I live in the Warren-Prentis district of Midtown and want to get to my job in the Penobscot Building I would rather have a streetcar than nothing at all. If I live in the Washington Square Apartments and I want to get to classes at Wayne State I would rather have a streetcar than nothing at all.

Even though this doesn't seem like a significant line it really is.
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  #40  
Old Posted May 23, 2009, 10:57 PM
detmsp detmsp is offline
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by itself m1 rail doesn't look so bad.... what bothers me about it is that it prevents a future light rail where someone could hop on in Troy and cruise to downtown rather quickly.
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