CFL in the Maritimes

[Smevo]

^Quite frankly, it doesn't matter to me which city gets a CFL team, and I don't really think either city will. I haven't watched the CFL in at least 10 years, probably more. Halifax does have the edge on Moncton for being more well known, I don't think anybody will dispute that. But since I now also live on the other side of the country, I've been very surprised at how many times I have to explain where both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are.

(Are you from Calgary orginally?
Nope.
Where are you from?
Nova Scotia.
Where's that?
East coast.
Did you go to school (eg university) there as well?
Nope, I went to school in New Brunswick.
Is that back East as well?
Yup.
Anywhere near Newfoundland?
If you consider Fort McMurray near Calgary, then sure.)

That's a sample of my most common conversation when introducing myself to colleagues here in Calgary.

As far as stats being misleading, well, stats are stats, they'll be interpreted differently by different people. I also never said the cities were equal, only that the 165km radius population which was rougly assumed to be the CFL market were close to equal. Sure Halifax still has 90,000 up on Moncton, but it's not as if we're talking Montreal vs Quebec City or Vancouver vs Victoria here, where the difference would be in the millions.

I'm not pro-Moncton (or pro-NB) or anti-Halifax, I just like to look up and calculate statistics from trusted sources (in this case stats can) stating my assumptions/parameters in times of dispute, when I have too much time on my hands anyway.

As Myles' signature once said, "all statistics are false."

[mylesmalley]

“Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.”

Evan Esar

"Statistics: The only science that enables different experts using the same figures to draw different conclusions."

Evan Esar

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

I guess it's possible that Moncton could get a CFL team, but some of you are just presenting one-sided arguments that fit the conclusion you are looking for. I hear this kind of thing a lot from people from Moncton (or I did when I didn't live on the other side of the country, where nobody even knows it exists).

It's true that Halifax is only about 20% of the population of the region, but what is the percentage for Moncton? It's 1/3 the size of Halifax no matter how you'd like to compare it. Comparing a CMA figure for Moncton to UA for Halifax is silly, and arguments about Halifax being geographically large make no sense when the Moncton CMA is much less densely inhabited. The Halifax CMA in 2006 was 373,000 in 5500 sq km. The Moncton CMA was 126,000 in 2400 sq km, i.e. about one third the population but nearly one half of the area.

I would argue that in terms of reputation, economy, and institutions of virtually any kind Halifax has no real competition within the Maritimes. This is why it is considered the regional city. Halifax has the airport, port, regional offices, hospitals, universities (or rather university - Dalhousie), culture, and some degree of resulting worldliness. It's also the capital of the province that is half of the region, which doesn't hurt. Overall, you have to be in veeeerry heavy denial to think some other city in the Maritimes is roughly comparable. Saint John has not been for 80 years and Moncton has not been ever.

It's fine to be pro-NB or whatever but that does not require shaky arguments and obviously misleading statistics.

I guess that Monctonians can be accused of shameless self promotion but hucksterism can help to raise the profile of a community and this is important when doing battle with a self important regional city with a sense of entitlement such as Halifax.

My arguements stand. Halifax has missed the boat on this issue, especially after dropping the ball on the Commonwealth Games. Our mayor, George LeBlanc is on record as supporting a CFL bid. What is the current position of Peter Kelly on this issue? Who is going to build your stadium?

Halifax needs Moncton if for no other reason than to keep you on your toes.

[kirjtc2]

I've been one to bash both Moncton and Halifax for their degree of self-importance, but I think of it this way....if the leaders of HRM had the same vision and attitude that those in Moncton did, and everyone in the city was on the same page like they are in Moncton, we wouldn't be having this debate.

For every success Halifax has has like the WJHCs, they've had screw-ups like the Commonwealth Games. Moncton has had no screw-ups, and that's what should get people in Halifax worried.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

I've been one to bash both Moncton and Halifax for their degree of self-importance, but I think of it this way....if the leaders of HRM had the same vision and attitude that those in Moncton did, and everyone in the city was on the same page like they are in Moncton, we wouldn't be having this debate.

For every success Halifax has has like the WJHCs, they've had screw-ups like the Commonwealth Games. Moncton has had no screw-ups, and that's what should get people in Halifax worried.

well, those "leaders" are getting kicked out of office in November, thank god. Then maybe things will go more smoothly.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I guess that Monctonians can be accused of shameless self promotion but hucksterism can help to raise the profile of a community and this is important when doing battle with a self important regional city with a sense of entitlement such as Halifax.

My arguements stand. Halifax has missed the boat on this issue, especially after dropping the ball on the Commonwealth Games. Our mayor, George LeBlanc is on record as supporting a CFL bid. What is the current position of Peter Kelly on this issue? Who is going to build your stadium?

Halifax needs Moncton if for no other reason than to keep you on your toes.

Like it or not Halifax is the dominant city of Atlantic Canada. It is cited by the Conference Board of Canada as the hub of Atlantic Canada and Moncton is not. Moncton may be the geographic hub, but Halifax is the financial, commercial and cultural hub. The economy and people of Atlantic Canada gravitate to Halifax.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Like it or not Halifax is the dominant city of Atlantic Canada. It is cited by the Conference Board of Canada as the hub of Atlantic Canada and Moncton is not. Moncton may be the geographic hub, but Halifax is the financial, commercial and cultural hub. The economy and people of Atlantic Canada gravitate to Halifax.

I don't think anyone would argue the fact that Halifax is the premiere regional city in the Maritimes. There is no question that Halifax has a formidable quantity of the region"s financial, cultural and commercial resources.

This does not mean however that the rest of the Maritimes is chopped liver. No city worth it's salt would roll over and die just because Halifax is a few hours down the road. Both Saint John and Moncton have made great strides over the last decade. The Port of Saint John is the busiest in Atlantic Canada. Saint John is poised to become an energy powerhouse (Lepreau 2, second oil refinery, LNG port). Moncton is the fastest growing city east of Toronto (census 2006). The Moncton International Airport now handles more air freight than Halifax International. Moncton has an entrepeneurial enthusiasm lacking in certain larger cities.

Just because Halifax is larger and more established does not mean that it should be naturally entitled. Competition is good, and both Saint John and Moncton are up for the challenge.

The competition for the CFL franchise is wide open. Moncton will have a 20,000 seat stadium and has a strategic central location. Halifax has Peter Kelly.

Remember, complacency kills.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kirjtc2

For every success Halifax has has like the WJHCs, they've had screw-ups like the Commonwealth Games. Moncton has had no screw-ups, and that's what should get people in Halifax worried.

Moncton has never put together a bid for anything like the CWGs, so this line of reasoning is heavily flawed. Is it better to go to community college instead of getting rejected by Harvard then going to Princeton? If people in Halifax also aimed low enough there wouldn't be any failures there either.

I don't think people in Halifax have a sense of entitlement, it just is what it is - a much bigger city than any other in the region with a lot more going on (including somewhat more beyond whitebread Wal-Mart/80's rock/football type culture that most of the region tends to be limited to). Halifax doesn't need Moncton to keep it on its toes, it needs to look to dozens of other cities around the planet that do many things in much better ways.

The CFL in Halifax isn't even a big deal locally (I don't know if it is in Moncton or not) and I'm not sure if the government should be paying for it. Reactions to the CWGs were also lukewarm. Personally I'd rather see the money invested in transit and other projects, although I don't mind if some goes into sports.

I do agree that Halifax should be working towards some major projects of some kind and that Peter Kelly is a terrible mayor.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton has never put together a bid for anything like the CWGs, so this line of reasoning is heavily flawed. Is it better to go to community college instead of getting rejected by Harvard then going to Princeton? If people in Halifax also aimed low enough there wouldn't be any failures there either.

I would not say that Moncton aims low.

2006 - Memorial Cup (widely considered to have been the most successful to that time)
2007 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2008 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2009 - World Men's Curling Championship (for the second time)
2010 - World Junior Championships in Athletics (will be the largest sporting event ever held in Atlantic Canada.)

'nuff said.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would not say that Moncton aims low.

2006 - Memorial Cup (widely considered to have been the most successful to that time)
2007 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2008 - CIS University Cup Hockey Championships
2009 - World Men's Curling Championship (for the second time)
2010 - World Junior Championships in Athletics (will be the largest sporting event ever held in Atlantic Canada.)

'nuff said.

I think what hes trying to say is that most of those events dont even compare to the events that Halifax has held.

Halifax has been doing a lot better lately than people give it credit for. It's actually held much larger events, more frequently than Moncton has, but for some reason Moncton gets more praise for the events it's held.

I would LOVE to see Moncton even try to attempt an event as big as Tall Ships. it always attracts 750,000 to over a million people over the 5 days its held.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by someone123

I guess it's possible that Moncton could get a CFL team, but some of you are just presenting one-sided arguments that fit the conclusion you are looking for. I hear this kind of thing a lot from people from Moncton (or I did when I didn't live on the other side of the country, where nobody even knows it exists).

It's true that Halifax is only about 20% of the population of the region, but what is the percentage for Moncton? It's 1/3 the size of Halifax no matter how you'd like to compare it. Comparing a CMA figure for Moncton to UA for Halifax is silly, and arguments about Halifax being geographically large make no sense when the Moncton CMA is much less densely inhabited. The Halifax CMA in 2006 was 373,000 in 5500 sq km. The Moncton CMA was 126,000 in 2400 sq km, i.e. about one third the population but nearly one half of the area.

I would argue that in terms of reputation, economy, and institutions of virtually any kind Halifax has no real competition within the Maritimes. This is why it is considered the regional city. Halifax has the airport, port, regional offices, hospitals, universities (or rather university - Dalhousie), culture, and some degree of resulting worldliness. It's also the capital of the province that is half of the region, which doesn't hurt. Overall, you have to be in veeeerry heavy denial to think some other city in the Maritimes is roughly comparable. Saint John has not been for 80 years and Moncton has not been ever.

It's fine to be pro-NB or whatever but that does not require shaky arguments and obviously misleading statistics.

Well I guess that puts the nail in the coffin for any remote chance of a Saint John bid...

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton has never put together a bid for anything like the CWGs, so this line of reasoning is heavily flawed. Is it better to go to community college instead of getting rejected by Harvard then going to Princeton? If people in Halifax also aimed low enough there wouldn't be any failures there either.

I don't think people in Halifax have a sense of entitlement, it just is what it is - a much bigger city than any other in the region with a lot more going on (including somewhat more beyond whitebread Wal-Mart/80's rock/football type culture that most of the region tends to be limited to). Halifax doesn't need Moncton to keep it on its toes, it needs to look to dozens of other cities around the planet that do many things in much better ways.

The CFL in Halifax isn't even a big deal locally (I don't know if it is in Moncton or not) and I'm not sure if the government should be paying for it. Reactions to the CWGs were also lukewarm. Personally I'd rather see the money invested in transit and other projects, although I don't mind if some goes into sports.

I do agree that Halifax should be working towards some major projects of some kind and that Peter Kelly is a terrible mayor.

Agreed we need a new mayor. I'm still really annoyed how the CWGS bid was just dropped. Maybe it was to expensive but just to drop out the way in which it happened was a bad move.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

I would LOVE to see Moncton even try to attempt an event as big as Tall Ships. it always attracts 750,000 to over a million people over the 5 days its held.

I think all those tall ships would get stuck in the Petitcodiac River.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't think anyone would argue the fact that Halifax is the premiere regional city in the Maritimes. There is no question that Halifax has a formidable quantity of the region"s financial, cultural and commercial resources.

This does not mean however that the rest of the Maritimes is chopped liver. No city worth it's salt would roll over and die just because Halifax is a few hours down the road. Both Saint John and Moncton have made great strides over the last decade. The Port of Saint John is the busiest in Atlantic Canada. Saint John is poised to become an energy powerhouse (Lepreau 2, second oil refinery, LNG port). Moncton is the fastest growing city east of Toronto (census 2006). The Moncton International Airport now handles more air freight than Halifax International. Moncton has an entrepeneurial enthusiasm lacking in certain larger cities.

Just because Halifax is larger and more established does not mean that it should be naturally entitled. Competition is good, and both Saint John and Moncton are up for the challenge.

The competition for the CFL franchise is wide open. Moncton will have a 20,000 seat stadium and has a strategic central location. Halifax has Peter Kelly.

Remember, complacency kills.

Well, Moncton hasnt actually surpassed Halifax for air cargo yet, Saint John is technically not the busiest port in the maritimes, it just handles more weight in cargo. Halifax handles about 10x more TEU's, and Moncton is only the fastest growing city in relevant increase to its current population, not overall. Halifax by sheer numbers is growing about twice as fast. But I suppose your half right anyway .

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think all those tall ships would get stuck in the Petitcodiac River.

lol, I just knew a comment like that was coming. I had the mental image in my mind after I did the post

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't think anyone would argue the fact that Halifax is the premiere regional city in the Maritimes. There is no question that Halifax has a formidable quantity of the region"s financial, cultural and commercial resources.

This does not mean however that the rest of the Maritimes is chopped liver. No city worth it's salt would roll over and die just because Halifax is a few hours down the road. Both Saint John and Moncton have made great strides over the last decade. The Port of Saint John is the busiest in Atlantic Canada. Saint John is poised to become an energy powerhouse (Lepreau 2, second oil refinery, LNG port). Moncton is the fastest growing city east of Toronto (census 2006). The Moncton International Airport now handles more air freight than Halifax International. Moncton has an entrepeneurial enthusiasm lacking in certain larger cities.

Just because Halifax is larger and more established does not mean that it should be naturally entitled. Competition is good, and both Saint John and Moncton are up for the challenge.

The competition for the CFL franchise is wide open. Moncton will have a 20,000 seat stadium and has a strategic central location. Halifax has Peter Kelly.

Remember, complacency kills.

Moncton airport has done well with Air cargo but it doesn't compare to Halifax Airport in size and importance.

[someone123]

Is the cargo thing even true? I searched google and immediately found this document:

http://dsp-psd.tpsgc.gc.ca/Collectio...XIE2005000.pdf

It's from Stats Canada and is from 2005.

For cargo:

Table 2.1
Top 50 airports ranked by the tonnage of cargo loaded and unloaded on major scheduled services and major charter
services

6 - Halifax Intl - Total (2005, tonnes) 13,588.1
18 - Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl N.B. - Total (2005, tonnes) 390.6


The most important is:

Table 1.1
Top 50 airports according to the number of enplaned and deplaned passangers, selected services

Halifax Intl N.S. - 2,994,746
Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl N.B. - 519,383

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Is the cargo thing even true? I searched google and immediately found this document:

http://dsp-psd.tpsgc.gc.ca/Collectio...XIE2005000.pdf

It's from Stats Canada and is from 2005.

For cargo:

Table 2.1
Top 50 airports ranked by the tonnage of cargo loaded and unloaded on major scheduled services and major charter
services

6 - Halifax Intl - Total (2005, tonnes) 13,588.1
18 - Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl N.B. - Total (2005, tonnes) 390.6


The most important is:

Table 1.1
Top 50 airports according to the number of enplaned and deplaned passangers, selected services

Halifax Intl N.S. - 2,994,746
Moncton/Greater Moncton Intl N.B. - 519,383

I think that we are getting off on a tangent on this thread but yes, the passenger figures that you have are accurate. GMIA has about 520,000 passengers per year (down fron 585,000 in 2006 before CanJet tanked). Halifax Robert Stanfield handles slightly over 5x as many passengers per year.

This still makes GMIA the second busiest passenger airport in the Maritimes and the 520,000 passengers per year is greater than all other airports in New Brunswick combined.

Regarding cargo capacity, the GMIA propagandists claim that we have caught up to Halifax. Wikipedia states that GMIA handled 24,527 metric tonnes of cargo in 2007. This is a huge discrepancy from the figures that you have given. I don't know what would account for this.

Finally, GMIA had 125,414 aircraft movements in 2007, making it the 14th busiest airport in Canada. Pretty respectable for a small city but it should be noted that a lot of this is due to the Moncton Flight College (the largest flight college in Canada).

Now, can we stop comparing airports and start talking about the CFL again?

[MonctonRad]

Actually Someone, I figured out what the discrepancy on the cargo figures must be.

The title of the table is "Table 2.1
Top 50 airports ranked by the tonnage of cargo loaded and unloaded on major scheduled services and major charter
services"

I think this table captures data regarding the cargo shipped in the holds of passenger aircraft. Since the passenger aircraft serving GMIA are smaller than those serving Halifax (excluding WestJet), the figures for cargo shipped by this route are correspondingly miniscule.

The situation would change when you include exclusively cargo air services. Both FedEx and Purolator have their Atlantic Canadian bases at the GMIA and they both have a couple of cargo jets landing at the airport on a daily basis. Their cargo jets are huge (much larger than the passenger planes landing at the airport). There is a third cargo service at the airport as well (CargoJet Airways).

This probably explains why my figure is 24,527 tonnes and yours is 390 tonnes.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Actually Someone, I figured out what the discrepancy on the cargo figures must be.

The title of the table is "Table 2.1
Top 50 airports ranked by the tonnage of cargo loaded and unloaded on major scheduled services and major charter
services"

I think this table captures data regarding the cargo shipped in the holds of passenger aircraft. Since the passenger aircraft serving GMIA are smaller than those serving Halifax (excluding WestJet), the figures for cargo shipped by this route are correspondingly miniscule.

The situation would change when you include exclusively cargo air services. Both FedEx and Purolator have their Atlantic Canadian bases at the GMIA and they both have a couple of cargo jets landing at the airport on a daily basis. Their cargo jets are huge (much larger than the passenger planes landing at the airport). There is a third cargo service at the airport as well (CargoJet Airways).

This probably explains why my figure is 24,527 tonnes and yours is 390 tonnes.

I hate to continue this arguement, but If you check sources online, Halifax handles about 30,000 tonnes.