PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Schuylkill River Trail Receives $12M in Federal Funding for Completion





Read more at https://www.phillymag.com/news/2018/...8bShm9QT544.99

This is awesome, will make quite an impact for those using the trail and those driving down 76 on the other side. Is there any idea on timing for completion?

If Grays Ferry doesn't blow up for some reason, this will really be the last straw to push development over there once complete.

[El Duderino]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Schuylkill River Trail Receives $12M in Federal Funding for Completion

This is super awesome and will make many of the proposed plans that seemed doomed to sit for years and years and years a reality. Can’t wait to see this get moving.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

This is super awesome and will make many of the proposed plans that seemed doomed to sit for years and years and years a reality. Can’t wait to see this get moving.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Penn decides to contribute to this project. Should really open up the potential of the Pennovation campus and connects into its new CHOP campus as well.

[Groundhog]

Not sure if this is still up-to-date at all (from last July), but this is the most comprehensive timeline I can find for the whole trail. They expected completion in 2020. It's just hitting me now that that is only TWO years away. Where does the time go?

https://philly.curbed.com/2016/1/21/...jects-timeline

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Not sure if this is still up-to-date at all (from last July), but this is the most comprehensive timeline I can find for the whole trail. They expected completion in 2020. It's just hitting me now that that is only TWO years away. Where does the time go?

https://philly.curbed.com/2016/1/21/...jects-timeline

they keep this pretty up to date I think:
https://www.schuylkillbanks.org/projects

Looks like construction will begin 2020. The bridge from Grays Ferry crescent to Bartram's garden is supposed to complete next year though.

[McBane]

I agree 100% that Fenway and Wrigley are icons that every sports field/arena should emulate. Those fields are reminiscent of the "Football" fields that dot London neighborhoods, where everyone walks or takes transit to get to.

What do those have in common? Those fields are well integrated into the surrounding urban fabric. Fenway and Wrigely are both over 100 years and the neighborhoods grew up around them and residents adapted over the years.

The problem is - is it really possible - in this day and age - to build an arena or small stadium in a neighborhood? I mean, just look at how crazy neighbors are reacting to Temple's football stadium plans. Nobody these days wants that in their backyard and yet what we're saying is that to have that Wrigley/Fenway experience, it needs to be within the neighborhood, not isolated.

[Capsule F]

Looks like there is heavy abatement under way at the Inquirer Building, thats a good sign that the reno will be starting in coming months. I'm curious what type of abatement the building needed, wouldn't be surprised if it was mold and asbestos.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This is awesome, will make quite an impact for those using the trail and those driving down 76 on the other side. Is there any idea on timing for completion?

If Grays Ferry doesn't blow up for some reason, this will really be the last straw to push development over there once complete.

While this is good for the neighborhood, keep in mind that I don't think there will be much actual connection to Grays Ferry because of the train tracks and existing uses. It'll mostly just go by it. That said, look out for Forgotten Bottom with the Grays Ferry Crescent connecting straight into Center City plus the Pennovation next door and the Penn loan forgiveness...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by tsarstruck

While this is good for the neighborhood, keep in mind that I don't think there will be much actual connection to Grays Ferry because of the train tracks and existing uses. It'll mostly just go by it. That said, look out for Forgotten Bottom with the Grays Ferry Crescent connecting straight into Center City plus the Pennovation next door and the Penn loan forgiveness...

That was what I was trying to say. Doesn't current day Grays Ferry encompass Forgotten Bottom?

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Yea but the point about McFaddens and Xfinity is kind of misleading. They're dead zones when the teams don't do well... because they are located in dead zones and the only thing that brings people there are sporting events. Obviously if there was a bar attached to a downtown arena, how the team is doing is largely irrelevant as there are of course plenty of sports bars in center city that do quite well regardless of how the teams are playing and don't even have the benefit of arena's worth of people stopping by every few days.

If they plopped WFC in Center City, obviously that would be a disaster. That's not what anyone is suggesting though. The way arena's have tiered seating they are basically made to have street facing retail all the way around the perimeter. There is no reason for an arena to kill a city block.

MSG and its circumstances are unique, but a location next to 30th street station in a bustling new high rise tech neighborhood is about as close to MSG circumstances as you'll find in America. It's a little more relevant than apples and oranges.

I believe the stadium I the best location for so many reasons

that said a second arena might not go there but could, albeit redundant


I think what we all miss is the stadium area could be improved and developed


even the lot where the Vet was could have apartments built (street wall of sorts) around the perimeter without giving up to much parking.

Imagine a closed street with more bars etc along CBP

plus I think the apartments would be a different market than normal in the city and have great PT BSL access

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Yea but the point about McFaddens and Xfinity is kind of misleading. They're dead zones when the teams don't do well... because they are located in dead zones and the only thing that brings people there are sporting events. Obviously if there was a bar attached to a downtown arena, how the team is doing is largely irrelevant as there are of course plenty of sports bars in center city that do quite well regardless of how the teams are playing and don't even have the benefit of arena's worth of people stopping by every few days.

If they plopped WFC in Center City, obviously that would be a disaster. That's not what anyone is suggesting though. The way arena's have tiered seating they are basically made to have street facing retail all the way around the perimeter. There is no reason for an arena to kill a city block.

MSG and its circumstances are unique, but a location next to 30th street station in a bustling new high rise tech neighborhood is about as close to MSG circumstances as you'll find in America. It's a little more relevant than apples and oranges.

Ok, maybe not as far apart as I made it out to be. Most of my experience with an urban arena is MSG, which has zero interaction with the street. There is a lot around that masks this deficit due to where it is located and the 650k people that use Penn Station every day. I wasn't sure what posters were suggesting when it comes to an urban arena.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Ok, maybe not as far apart as I made it out to be. Most of my experience with an urban arena is MSG, which has zero interaction with the street. There is a lot around that masks this deficit due to where it is located and the 650k people that use Penn Station every day. I wasn't sure what posters were suggesting when it comes to an urban arena.

As a fan, even if it does interact with the street, I think that takes away from the experience of going to the game. Strong integration means that you loose a game day atmosphere surrounding the building. Maybe that differs some for concerts, but for a game, the Sports Complex gives that experience better than any other location could.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

As a fan, even if it does interact with the street, I think that takes away from the experience of going to the game. Strong integration means that you loose a game day atmosphere surrounding the building. Maybe that differs some for concerts, but for a game, the Sports Complex gives that experience better than any other location could.

Sports complex gives an atmosphere alright, I just don't know if it's necessarily a great atmosphere for all purposes. Great as the atmosphere is, it's very much a white suburban atmosphere that is largely dependant on tailgating.

For the Eagles that works great, for the Sixers not so much. Also go to Fenway and you'll clearly see that atmosphere if not every great sporting event atmosphere is dependant on tailgating in a parking lot.

[iheartphilly]

^

I thought Xfinity Live would help with the atmosphere. Plus, the Casino going down there is gonna help. So, the WFC is good where it's at, no?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^

I thought Xfinity Live would help with the atmosphere. Plus, the Casino going down there is gonna help. So, the WFC is good where it's at, no?

Xfinity Live helps, the casino will...at least be another attraction down there. The sports museum will as well.

Originally Posted by allovertown

Sports complex gives an atmosphere alright, I just don't know if it's necessarily a great atmosphere for all purposes. Great as the atmosphere is, it's very much a white suburban atmosphere that is largely dependant on tailgating.

For the Eagles that works great, for the Sixers not so much. Also go to Fenway and you'll clearly see that atmosphere if not every great sporting event atmosphere is dependant on tailgating in a parking lot.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by white suburban - is this because of the parking lots? Tailgating is great for the Eagles and it's just as great for the Phillies too. I'll give you that the Sixers and Flyers don't have the same atmosphere now, but that's because:

1. The weather isn't as nice as it is for Phillies games
2. The games aren't full day events into themselves like Eagles games

If they make deep playoff runs and the weather turns, the tailgates will come. The Winter Classic was a great outdoor atmosphere for the Flyers because the game was a full day event. I don't think you could call the subway ride down to stadiums suburban and that's definitely part of the experience. Can you explain what the atmosphere you're referring to is?

As for comparisons, let's stop with saying we can build something urban like Fenway, Wrigley or MSG. We can't replicate that without 100 years of organic neighborhood growth around the stadium (maybe we could do that in South Philly by 2118?) and we're not NYC. For a basketball/hockey arena, our comps are TD Bank in Boston and Verizon Center in DC, maybe the Dunk in Providence? None of those creates any sort of gameday atmosphere. I'm sure they do well, but we'd be losing something if the arena went elsewhere.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

As for comparisons, let's stop with saying we can build something urban like Fenway, Wrigley or MSG. We can't replicate that without 100 years of organic neighborhood growth around the stadium (maybe we could do that in South Philly by 2118?) and we're not NYC. For a basketball/hockey arena, our comps are TD Bank in Boston and Verizon Center in DC, maybe the Dunk in Providence? None of those creates any sort of gameday atmosphere. I'm sure they do well, but we'd be losing something if the arena went elsewhere.

What about the arena in Brooklyn?

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

As for comparisons, let's stop with saying we can build something urban like Fenway, Wrigley or MSG. We can't replicate that without 100 years of organic neighborhood growth around the stadium (maybe we could do that in South Philly by 2118?) and we're not NYC. For a basketball/hockey arena, our comps are TD Bank in Boston and Verizon Center in DC, maybe the Dunk in Providence? None of those creates any sort of gameday atmosphere. I'm sure they do well, but we'd be losing something if the arena went elsewhere.

Spot on. And TD Bank came to my mind, too.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by City Wide

What about the arena in Brooklyn?

I haven't been so I can't speak for the experience, but that could be a good comp. Can anyone speak to this?

[Kidphilly]

this may be a dumb question, but I believe the galleria was build with the intent to support additional structures, could the galleria hold a stadium above it from 11th to 9th?

MSG is probably 3 or 4 stories above grade at the arena ground floor level, already parking and obviously transit and would not erode the street atmosphere. And with the convention center basically attached could be an attractive attachment for conventions


The market facing side could have an open concourse of glass and restaurants/bars, even active lighting as the trend seems that way there


just a brain fart but I would hate to see a big lot DT taken away for another large complex

I hate to see a lot taken by an arena DT

TD works because is little off the main beat and path

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I haven't been so I can't speak for the experience, but that could be a good comp. Can anyone speak to this?

Nothing about the Barclay Boondoggle is something we aspire to.