Trillium Line (O-Train) Updates

[1overcosc]

So a September launch. I presume that's when increased frequency comes into effect as well?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

So a September launch. I presume that's when increased frequency comes into effect as well?

The quote was not an official report. The last I have heard is late 2014 for the introduction of the new trains. What that means, I don't know.

I am a little surprised how little information is being made public about this service expansion and likewise for the Lansdowne Park transit plan. The latter needs to be in place by July but I have heard nothing in ages.

Also, today I noticed the O-Train was at Greenboro at a non-scheduled time. Was there a service shutdown or were the trains not on schedule? If the latter, how often does the O-Train fail to maintain schedule? Maintaining schedules is one of the big selling points of trains and it is critical to make the added transfer tolerable.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The quote was not an official report. The last I have heard is late 2014 for the introduction of the new trains. What that means, I don't know.

I am a little surprised how little information is being made public about this service expansion and likewise for the Lansdowne Park transit plan. The latter needs to be in place by July but I have heard nothing in ages.

Also, today I noticed the O-Train was at Greenboro at a non-scheduled time. Was there a service shutdown or were the trains not on schedule? If the latter, how often does the O-Train fail to maintain schedule? Maintaining schedules is one of the big selling points of trains and it is critical to make the added transfer tolerable.

The O-Train being off schedule is very rare.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The quote was not an official report. The last I have heard is late 2014 for the introduction of the new trains. What that means, I don't know.

I am a little surprised how little information is being made public about this service expansion and likewise for the Lansdowne Park transit plan. The latter needs to be in place by July but I have heard nothing in ages.

Also, today I noticed the O-Train was at Greenboro at a non-scheduled time. Was there a service shutdown or were the trains not on schedule? If the latter, how often does the O-Train fail to maintain schedule? Maintaining schedules is one of the big selling points of trains and it is critical to make the added transfer tolerable.

The O-Train expansion date seems to be a rolling deadline, and the lack of communication isn't helping. Originally the date being thrown around was January, but that didn't happen by a long shot (there were no signals at all at that time). It would not surprise me to see the expanded O-Train ready for September. All of the signals are now installed and crews look to be working overnight to wire them up. The September service change is the logical time to start the new trains, and if they can't wire up all the signals and test them in 4 months I'd be amazed.

I do wonder if we might see the new trains in service before the end of the summer though, since it makes sense to get them on the line and get all the drivers used to them before things become too stressful, and the capacity shouldn't be an issue in the summer. The only thing that keeps them off right now is the lack of platform extenders, but they have been tested at night back in the fall.

The O-Train is generally very reliable, but when it fails it tends to go completely. Two weeks ago a trainset was pulled out of service mid-day, cancelling all service for half an hour or more and then running with only one train for another half hour while the extra was put on the line. Part of this delay is the co-ordination with RTC required to switch the trains in and out of the yard, it's not quick.

The other major delay is the signals at Ellwood Diamond. When a VIA train passes, the O-Train may be held for 3 or 4 minutes. This typically delays the next train into Greenboro, and it can take a couple of trips before the trains are back on schedule again. These signals are also the cause of most signalling problems on the line. This seemed worse last fall, with the signals failing almost every other week. When the trains get more than a few minutes behind, they will sometimes skip a trip, and this may have been what you saw if there was an issue this morning. Reliability seems to have improved lately, and it also looks like most of it will be completely replaced soon, as new signal towers are in place on the VIA line and work is being done at the junction to prepare them for service, I think as part of VIA's switch to central traffic control in the area. It's hard to tell where one project ends and another begins in the area, since it's all one contractor.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Catenary

The O-Train expansion date seems to be a rolling deadline, and the lack of communication isn't helping. Originally the date being thrown around was January, but that didn't happen by a long shot (there were no signals at all at that time). It would not surprise me to see the expanded O-Train ready for September. All of the signals are now installed and crews look to be working overnight to wire them up. The September service change is the logical time to start the new trains, and if they can't wire up all the signals and test them in 4 months I'd be amazed.

I do wonder if we might see the new trains in service before the end of the summer though, since it makes sense to get them on the line and get all the drivers used to them before things become too stressful, and the capacity shouldn't be an issue in the summer. The only thing that keeps them off right now is the lack of platform extenders, but they have been tested at night back in the fall.

The O-Train is generally very reliable, but when it fails it tends to go completely. Two weeks ago a trainset was pulled out of service mid-day, cancelling all service for half an hour or more and then running with only one train for another half hour while the extra was put on the line. Part of this delay is the co-ordination with RTC required to switch the trains in and out of the yard, it's not quick.

The other major delay is the signals at Ellwood Diamond. When a VIA train passes, the O-Train may be held for 3 or 4 minutes. This typically delays the next train into Greenboro, and it can take a couple of trips before the trains are back on schedule again. These signals are also the cause of most signalling problems on the line. This seemed worse last fall, with the signals failing almost every other week. When the trains get more than a few minutes behind, they will sometimes skip a trip, and this may have been what you saw if there was an issue this morning. Reliability seems to have improved lately, and it also looks like most of it will be completely replaced soon, as new signal towers are in place on the VIA line and work is being done at the junction to prepare them for service, I think as part of VIA's switch to central traffic control in the area. It's hard to tell where one project ends and another begins in the area, since it's all one contractor.

Thank you for your informative post.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by Catenary

I do wonder if we might see the new trains in service before the end of the summer though, since it makes sense to get them on the line and get all the drivers used to them before things become too stressful, and the capacity shouldn't be an issue in the summer. The only thing that keeps them off right now is the lack of platform extenders, but they have been tested at night back in the fall.

While I don't know whether or not the new Alstom trains will be in service before the end of summer, I sure hope that Walkley Yard will particpate for Doors Open this year as a way of getting a sneak peak of the new trains.

[lrt's friend]

The O-Train returned to schedule by yesterday afternoon but is again off-schedule this morning.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by JCL

While I don't know whether or not the new Alstom trains will be in service before the end of summer, I sure hope that Walkley Yard will particpate for Doors Open this year as a way of getting a sneak peak of the new trains.

Having the new trains in service anytime before the expansion is complete is purely speculation. I hope they participate too, I've seen a couple pictures from inside the expanded bay courtesy of a construction worker, and it's pretty cool. Full raised rail pit for working under the train in the new building.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The O-Train returned to schedule by yesterday afternoon but is again off-schedule this morning.

It's off again right now actually. (EDIT: Back up again now, 1:18PM) The south switch of the Carleton passing track is apparently on the fritz, so trains are only running between Carleton and Bayview. The other one was just sitting at Confederation when I saw it.

Communication remains a challenge for the O-Train. I think part of it is the separate radio system, I've heard from supervisors who were standing at the platform when the system was broken in the past that the train is on a completely separate system (so the train can contact RTC). Today as I was heading to the southbound platform at Carleton, I heard an announcement. I was a few steps away so it wasn't clear, but other people on the platform heard that there was no Northbound service. When the train didn't come as scheduled, I checked twitter, and OCTranspo Live confirmed that due to a "Signal Issue" there was no Carleton - Bayview service and 107 would be running.

When the train arrived heading South, the driver got on the platform and told people waiting that he was turning around and heading back to Bayview, and the bus was running to Greenboro. A direct contradiction of the tweet and announcement I showed him, and he pulled out his radio and called for operations. A correct tweet was posted a minute later. Luckily the 107 came quickly, but once on it the driver refused to stop at Heron or Walkley when requested (both appeared on the screen inside the bus, and on the route map last summer). At Greenboro I asked about continuing to South Keys, since that's what's on the destination, but he said he was told to only stop at the train stations. Of course he then drove away to South Keys anyways, because that's the next turnaround.

All of this just makes it seem like there is no one in charge of the train beyond the basics of running a railway. Poor communication is bad customer service. At least on the new summer schedules posted in the stations they have highlighted the information on what to do when the train is closed, including nearby routes and where to transfer to get to Carleton and Downtown.

Edit: Clarified that the schedules are the ones posted in the stations.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Catenary

It's off again right now actually. (EDIT: Back up again now, 1:18PM) The south switch of the Carleton passing track is apparently on the fritz, so trains are only running between Carleton and Bayview. The other one was just sitting at Confederation when I saw it.

Communication remains a challenge for the O-Train. I think part of it is the separate radio system, I've heard from supervisors who were standing at the platform when the system was broken in the past that the train is on a completely separate system (so the train can contact RTC). Today as I was heading to the southbound platform at Carleton, I heard an announcement. I was a few steps away so it wasn't clear, but other people on the platform heard that there was no Northbound service. When the train didn't come as scheduled, I checked twitter, and OCTranspo Live confirmed that due to a "Signal Issue" there was no Carleton - Bayview service and 107 would be running.

When the train arrived heading South, the driver got on the platform and told people waiting that he was turning around and heading back to Bayview, and the bus was running to Greenboro. A direct contradiction of the tweet and announcement I showed him, and he pulled out his radio and called for operations. A correct tweet was posted a minute later. Luckily the 107 came quickly, but once on it the driver refused to stop at Heron or Walkley when requested (both appeared on the screen inside the bus, and on the route map last summer). At Greenboro I asked about continuing to South Keys, since that's what's on the destination, but he said he was told to only stop at the train stations. Of course he then drove away to South Keys anyways, because that's the next turnaround.

All of this just makes it seem like there is no one in charge of the train beyond the basics of running a railway. Poor communication is bad customer service. At least on the new summer schedules they have highlighted the information on what to do when the train is closed, including nearby routes and where to transfer to get to Carleton and Downtown.

I once got into an argument with a bus driver on Route 402 because I was not destined for CTC. He was stopping at the station I was going to and I wondered what the big deal was. There was a handful of people on the bus and I was not taking anybody's seat. He was prepared to hold up the passengers to have me forcibly removed. This didn't happen, but it was absolutely lousy customer service. A childish abuse of authority and inflexibility on some silly rules that the public has no way of knowing about.

[Catenary]

The train stopped running last night around 10, or was delayed long enough that buses were dispatched on route 107 for the second time in the day. Combined with the reduced schedule for both buses and the train and the fact that exams were just finishing for the night things were a mess at Carleton. The announcements were garbled (this seems to depend on the person making the announcement, other times they're quite good) and only made once, and it never was announced on Twitter or octranspo.mobi. I don't know what's going on, but their communication hasn't gotten any better.

[lrt's friend]

I would of course debate the point about subway only being purposeful for extending Yonge and DRL.

Extending the Danforth subway to replace the Scarborough RT is the best choice for that corridor. Scarborough LRT is just replacing a mistake (the RT) with another mistake. It'll function if they switch back to LRT, but its an overall less than optimal solution and induces the same transfer-transfer-transfer problem the RT has.

Really, however, these old tired debates mean nothing in terms of regional rail. Its about time Toronto got frequent, multi-line, fast moving electrified regional rail.

From the Toronto thread, this is very relevant to our discussions about the future of the O-Train. The lack of direct service is an ongoing concern in Scarborough and the replacement of the Scarborough RT has been highly controversial with a number of alternatives rejected by residents because of the lack of quality of service to be provided. For this reason, there have also been very expensive announcements concerning subway extensions on the corridor. Our lack of vision for planning the right long-term solution for the O-Train will come back and bite us financially once alternative choices at Bayview and Lebreton Flats are paved over. This is already the case in Toronto.

[eternallyme]

There is no realistic way, barring a second tunnel being built, that the O-Train can extend downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

There is no realistic way, barring a second tunnel being built, that the O-Train can extend downtown.

Really? How about reserve a connection to the Confederation Line, or reserve a surface corridor into downtown from Bayview? Likewise, we should also be reserving a connection from the Prince of Wales Bridge so that Gatineau LRT remains possible.

If we depend on everybody transferring at Bayview forever, we are guaranteeing a bottleneck at some point in the future.

As I said, we have opportunity today that will not exist in 25, 50 or 100 years and will cost a ton of money to correct.

We only have the present to do this right. We don't have to build everything now, but need to plan for it now.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

From the Toronto thread, this is very relevant to our discussions about the future of the O-Train. The lack of direct service is an ongoing concern in Scarborough and the replacement of the Scarborough RT has been highly controversial with a number of alternatives rejected by residents because of the lack of quality of service to be provided. For this reason, there have also been very expensive announcements concerning subway extensions on the corridor. Our lack of vision for planning the right long-term solution for the O-Train will come back and bite us financially once alternative choices at Bayview and Lebreton Flats are paved over. This is already the case in Toronto.

TO could have easily built an extension of the Crosstown LRT or the Green Line subway using the old RT RoW. Absolutely idiotic on their part. Holly shit!

And yes, I agree; either through DMVs or future electric conversation, the N/S should be planned with eventual direct to downtown service, even if the mythical Bank Street subway gets built to the airport.

The Confederation Line tunnel has a capacity of 24,000 pphpd, and that's with full seating configuration of ORT cars as opposed to other cities with minimal seating for max capacity. If the current volume through downtown is 10,000 pphpd, we have plenty of capacity left for multiple lines through the DOTT now and in the future.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

TO could have easily built an extension of the Crosstown LRT or the Green Line subway using the old RT RoW. Absolutely idiotic on their part. Holly shit!

I think there were various proposals to that effect. The Cracken and the Scarborough councilors opposed that.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

From the Toronto thread, this is very relevant to our discussions about the future of the O-Train. The lack of direct service is an ongoing concern in Scarborough and the replacement of the Scarborough RT has been highly controversial with a number of alternatives rejected by residents because of the lack of quality of service to be provided. For this reason, there have also been very expensive announcements concerning subway extensions on the corridor. Our lack of vision for planning the right long-term solution for the O-Train will come back and bite us financially once alternative choices at Bayview and Lebreton Flats are paved over. This is already the case in Toronto.

The Scarborough RT is not being replaced because of the need to eliminate a bottlenecked transfer--it's being replaced because it was built as a pilot project of a new technology that never panned out meaning that maintaining it is impossible, and its cars are near the end of their life.

[Catenary]

Starting May 1st, the O-Train will stop at 10pm and be replaced by the 107 to allow track work to start earlier.

http://octranspo1.com/go_mobile/o_train_evening_service_adjustment_starts_may_1

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Scarborough RT is not being replaced because of the need to eliminate a bottlenecked transfer--it's being replaced because it was built as a pilot project of a new technology that never panned out meaning that maintaining it is impossible, and its cars are near the end of their life.

Ya, but that doesn't mean they can't take the opportunity to improve service with a direct connection to another line. No rapid transit system should ever require more than one transfer to get downtown.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The Scarborough RT is not being replaced because of the need to eliminate a bottlenecked transfer--it's being replaced because it was built as a pilot project of a new technology that never panned out meaning that maintaining it is impossible, and its cars are near the end of their life.

Isn't it the same technology as the SkyTrain in Vancouver?