By 2060, the American South Could Be Three Times as Urbanized

[NorthernDancer]

Atlanta is already the least dense urban area in the world over 2 million people. It's hard to imagine it being even more sprawled.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

"by 2060, the south will have developed it's own version of white castle. they will no longer be reliant on a midwestern fast food chain to enjoy the comforts of spraying down a toilet bowl while hungover at the same time."

"by 2060, we will have developed the flying car, but the airspace of atlanta will still be clogged up with florida bound midwestern and canadian plated flying RVs the days right after christmas."

Ha ha..OT, but had a similar conversation where told someone that if you would of transported me as a child in the 70's to a random street today, I would be dissapointed on how nothing at all has really changed like we thought as far as vehicles etc.

I then pointed out to a rv and said to my friend,"see even the rv's look pretty much the same"..Anyways, carry on.

[MolsonExport]

meanwhile, in the Southern parts of Canada (and up north in Alberta too, Woot Woot! ) the smart centres (ubiquitous big box shopping using the same plan for trillions of places) will have gobbled up the entire landscape and collectively become the ultimate power in the universe. Bed, Barf and Beyond! Walfart! Montana's Cookhouse!

[Eightball]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Why? This is a fun little thought experiment but what are the factors that will sustain growth in the South?

Cheap energy? No.
Endless demand for exurban housing? No.
Immigration? Not if today's crop of politicians have their way.
Innovative companies creating jobs? I'm not seeing it.
Bottomless water supplies? Uh no.

I think Atlanta and Charlotte will plateau, soon, just as Chicago and New York did before it. Houston may continue growing, I think it has a far stronger approach (even if it's ugly as sin).

Excellent points and I agree... but atl and Charlotte (edit: and the Texas cities, though I think their growth will slow) still have a Long history to grow imo, though hopefully differently at least somewhat.

Let's not forget (with ac) the temperature is quite appealing. But I agree there will drastic changes in growth rates etc. And many states will soon go purple ... ga maybe this year, TX in 4 to 6 years. At that point we will see a drastic restructuring of political parties.

[rellott]

Wow.

[Qubert]

I dunno about you, but does anyone else see the very tantalizing High-Speed Rail corridor forming between Atlanta-Spartansburg/Greenville-Charlotte-Winston Salem-Durham-Raleigh? Working for Amtrak, I can tell you some of our biggest growth is coming from Virginia and North Carolina, and a HSR in this corridor would be huge...I can see ridership as high as some of the Chicago hub routes.

[novawolverine]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Why? This is a fun little thought experiment but what are the factors that will sustain growth in the South?

Cheap energy? No.
Endless demand for exurban housing? No.
Immigration? Not if today's crop of politicians have their way.
Innovative companies creating jobs? I'm not seeing it.
Bottomless water supplies? Uh no.

I think Atlanta and Charlotte will plateau, soon, just as Chicago and New York did before it. Houston may continue growing, I think it has a far stronger approach (even if it's ugly as sin).

The article is talking about the region becoming denser, so maybe the endless demand for exurban housing is not as relevant. The politicians have never been particularly immigrant friendly down there broadly speaking, but it hasn't prevented the south from becoming more diverse over the past few decades. And the large metros in the south have a lot of the big employers that other areas have. Not to mention, the sectors of the economy that are creating a lot of the jobs like healthcare are needed just about everywhere.

I think your list is a lot of cherry-picking. I think there does run the risk of these states not managing the recent and future growth properly straining public services and infrastructure, which will make the area less desirable to some. I still think newer and cheaper homes will attract a lot of people to the south, not to mention some of the small-mid-sized cities have a lot of potential for growth as people either leave the bigger cities or find a better value there.

People are becoming more attracted to urban living and that's an area where the south is at a deficit and has a lot of room for improvement, so I think urbanizing is inevitable, in part due to factors you point out like energy and water-related constraints.

Originally Posted by Eightball

Excellent points and I agree... but atl and Charlotte (edit: and the Texas cities, though I think their growth will slow) still have a Long history to grow imo, though hopefully differently at least somewhat.

Let's not forget (with ac) the temperature is quite appealing. But I agree there will drastic changes in growth rates etc. And many states will soon go purple ... ga maybe this year, TX in 4 to 6 years. At that point we will see a drastic restructuring of political parties.

What does going purple have to do with this? Are you saying that this will slow inhibit the rate of growth. I don't deny that the growth rates will slow, but I'm not sure if the changing political environment will be a big direct factor in slowing the rate of growth.

[TexasPlaya]

Originally Posted by ardecila

Why? This is a fun little thought experiment but what are the factors that will sustain growth in the South?

Cheap energy? No.
Endless demand for exurban housing? No.
Immigration? Not if today's crop of politicians have their way.
Innovative companies creating jobs? I'm not seeing it.
Bottomless water supplies? Uh no.

I think Atlanta and Charlotte will plateau, soon, just as Chicago and New York did before it. Houston may continue growing, I think it has a far stronger approach (even if it's ugly as sin).

It's really hard to make these type of predications. North America could easily become the world's largest exporter of energy for the next decades if we got our act together. The SE does have some good universities for innovation. Water isn't really an issue with conservation and cheap energy, it is bottomless with the right type of planning.

[edluva]

the South is treading negative new ground. nothing the urban South is doing today and will be doing for the forseeable future is anything the rest of urban America hasn't already done, and hasn't already realized the error of doing

South = Fail

[TarHeelJ]

Some of the ignorant comments about the South here are hilarious. So many comments, so little knowledge...

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by TarHeelJ

Some of the ignorant comments about the South here are hilarious. So many comments, so little knowledge...

Like what? That the South is trying to urbanize areas and communities that are currently anything but urban and due to various reasons that probably won't work worth a damn other than a few progressively thinking neighborhoods in a handful of cities? That the South is finally doing what every other region of the country did 15 or 20 years ago? That urbanizing a suburb still doesn't make it urban?

[edluva]

^lol

what's hilarious is if I ask Tarheelj to be specific about what ignorance is being spread about the urban south, he won't be able to get specific. but if he asks me to get specific about the south, I can be

[TexasPlaya]

People vote with their feet, plain and simple.

[TexasPlaya]

Nevermind, not worth it.

[L41A]

What is crazy about the comments that some people make is that they are made with limited historical context, with a narrow perspective, and with broad strokes. The city of Atlanta pre-1970s in many ways is more urban than it is now. The city in many ways is maybe surpassing what it lost in the urban sense in 1970s and 80s. But Atlanta is not unique in that sense because the 1970s and 1980s was not particular good time for urban America period.

So when folks make comments that Atlanta (or the South) is just only now doing things that other places are doing or have done - you do have to scratch your head - because it is narrow minded marked with broad generalizations. Look at any photos of Downtown Atlanta in the pre-1970s , and you will see street cars, more department stores and places to shop, passenger train stations, more street grid, more theaters, etc. For example, Woodruff Park was occupied with street front buildings along Peachtree and Pryor Street. And Pryor Street intersected Peachtree and Forsyth before the Georgia Pacific Building was put in the middle of the street. Broad Street was major through street and not dissected. And Centennial Olympic Park was full of warehouses. Five Points was home to many bank headquarters including the predecessors to NationsBank/Bank of America and Wachovia/Wells Fargo. And south of Five Points, Terminal Station was standing and Norfolk Southern occupied buildings and had major operations. People lived where Turner Field now stands. People lived where the Civic Center now stands. Vine City/English Avenue was more vibrant, etc, etc.

There are a lot of very good things now happening in the city of Atlanta especially with perspective to the 1970s-80s. But don't act like it's something new.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by L41A

What is crazy about the comments that some people make is that they are made with limited historical context, with a narrow perspective, and with broad strokes. The city of Atlanta pre-1970s in many ways is more urban than it is now. The city in many ways is maybe surpassing what it lost in the urban sense in 1970s and 80s. But Atlanta is not unique in that sense because the 1970s and 1980s was not particular good time for urban America period.

What decently sized city in any region of the country wasn't? Especially those in the South. Urban Renewal, white flight, and the interstate system killed many Southern cores.

So when folks make comments that Atlanta (or the South) is just only now doing things that other places are doing or have done - you do have to scratch your head - because it is narrow minded marked with broad generalizations.

What was there is obvious and most people on this message board, at least Southerners know that. That being said it still doesn't negate the fact that cities in the South are behind other parts of the country in realizing that the things that it demolished or let fade out were actually good for their health and now after seeing everyone else continue to use them or bring them back with success have started to do that.

When a pretty popular and growing Southern city can't develop a bus rapid transit system, I'd say things are pretty far behind.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

What decently sized city in any region of the country wasn't? Especially those in the South. Urban Renewal, white flight, and the interstate system killed many Southern cores.



What was there is obvious and most people on this message board, at least Southerners know that. That being said it still doesn't negate the fact that cities in the South are behind other parts of the country in realizing that the things that it demolished or let fade out were actually good for their health and now after seeing everyone else continue to use them or bring them back with success have started to do that.

When a pretty popular and growing Southern city can't develop a bus rapid transit system, I'd say things are pretty far behind.

What the heck are you talking about? I made no comparison between any other city being more urban in the 1970s than it is now. As a matter of fact, I was saying basically the same thing - the 1970s/80s were not a good time for urban America. RIF. (i.e. many places like Atlanta were more likely more urban pre-1970s than they are now because or the urban decay in the 1970s -80s in America).

What I was questioning was the implication that Atlanta in particular is doing things now that other cities have already done. You can't be talking about street cars - we had them. And Atlanta started mass transit heavy rail service (MARTA) in 1979 before many places outside of the South which included places that were and are larger.

[memph]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

It's really hard to make these type of predications. North America could easily become the world's largest exporter of energy for the next decades if we got our act together. The SE does have some good universities for innovation. Water isn't really an issue with conservation and cheap energy, it is bottomless with the right type of planning.

Where would all this cheap energy come from? Shale gas and shale oil isn't exactly cheap to extract.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by L41A

What the heck are you talking about? I made no comparison between any other city being more urban in the 1970s than it is now. As a matter of fact, I was saying basically the same thing - the 1970s/80s were not a good time for urban America. RIF. (i.e. many places like Atlanta were more likely more urban pre-1970s than they are now because or the urban decay in the 1970s -80s in America).

What I was questioning was the implication that Atlanta in particular is doing things now that other cities have already done. You can't be talking about street cars - we had them. And Atlanta started mass transit heavy rail service (MARTA) in 1979 before many places outside of the South which included places that were and are larger.

Well, the South is more than Atlanta, you know?

Did I mention street cars? To be clear I was referring to Nashville's attempt at developing bus rapid transit if that's what you're referring to. Sounds like you just want to argue jumping to conclusions like that.

[L41A]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

Well, the South is more than Atlanta, you know?

Did I mention street cars? To be clear I was referring to Nashville's attempt at developing bus rapid transit if that's what you're referring to. Sounds like you just want to argue jumping to conclusions like that.

I am not jumping to conclusions because Atlanta is in the South. That's what I meant by broad strokes and generalizations - and by stating "Everything is every thing". Like I said, RIF.

Ba Bye !!!!