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Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 3:44 PM
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SF installing cameras on buses to ticket car drivers blocking bus lanes

This is freaking great. I cannot even tell you how often I've watched cars violate bus zones and thought to myself "why can't we just slap a camera on the bus and ticket those a-holes".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Streetsblog SF
All Muni Buses to Get Cameras for Transit Lane Enforcement by Spring 2014

Every Muni bus will be fitted with a front-facing camera to enforce transit-only lanes by spring of next year, according to the SF Municipal Transportation Agency [PDF]. Three hundred of the 800 buses in the system will receive them by this fall, and all of the new buses being purchased by the SFMTA will get them as well, the agency says.

Currently, only 4 percent of Muni’s bus fleet has cameras, which give enforcement officers the ability to ticket scofflaw drivers parked in transit lanes by mailing them a ticket. Current law prohibits the cameras from being used to cite moving violations in a transit lane (only police can do that) or drivers parked in bus stop zones.
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 3:51 PM
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^ In Arizona, the mailing of a photo-generated ticket does not satisfy rule 4(e) of the Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure regarding service of process in a civil action. Let's be clear - photo tickets are basically lawsuits for money damages, and thus subject to the ARCP. To effect service normally, you must hire a process server to have the service properly completed. Without proper service, the court does not have personal jurisdiction over the parties to the complaint. There's also the issue of notice. Despite this, Arizona courts still send these photo generated tickets by the thousands out to the public, implying that if you ignore the ticket, you could be found guilty or worse. They count on the ignorance of the public in this area.

I would suspect there are other states in this same situation. Anyone receiving a photo ticket in the mail should immediately check their state's rules of civil procedure to determine if the mailing of said citation constitutes proper service. They can also check with a local attorney. If it is not proper service, I would urge you to tear up that ticket and move on with your life.

If you want to issue citations, hire a cop to do it the right way. Don't take the easy/cheap/lazy way out to mail out tickets to people because it is expedient to do so.

--don
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 3:57 PM
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What an awesome idea!
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 4:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
If you want to issue citations, hire a cop to do it the right way. Don't take the easy/cheap/lazy way out to mail out tickets to people because it is expedient to do so.
This comment makes me wonder if you've ever seen a bus lane.

1. The point is not to raise revenue. It's to keep bus lanes clear of cars so buses can actually use them.

2. Using actual police officers to enforce bus lanes does not not work, because you'd need a cop on every single block dedicated to nothing but writing tickets, which would be a horrible use of police manpower. Also, stopping the car to give them a ticket means they're still blocking the bus lane, which defeats the point of trying to keep it clear. City streets don't have shoulders, so if you "pull over" somebody to ticket them it means you're still in the travel lane.

Putting cameras on buses is far more practical for this purpose. The fact that some states may need authorizing legislation to do it is a complication, but does not mean it's "not the right way".
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  #5  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 5:07 PM
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I am confused, the article mentions cars "parked" in the bus lane, is this a parking ticket or moving violation?
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Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 6:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderlandPark View Post
I am confused, the article mentions cars "parked" in the bus lane, is this a parking ticket or moving violation?
There are two different areas being talked about in the article:

-transit lanes that get blocked by drivers (i.e the lanes for buses and the F street car along market street)
-bus stop zones along the curb. This is where people are parking, not the transit lanes in the middle of the street.
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Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 6:12 PM
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I accidentally used a bus lane I realized on Mission a couple of weeks ago, not familiar with the bus only lanes you have. Guess I would have gotten a ticket. It was the only lane that was even moving, total stopped gridlock there in SOMA, and the city made things much much worse by closing streets with no apparent purpose (no festival, no construction, just closed right next to Nordstrom)
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Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 6:41 PM
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this is a great start, hopefully it'll extend eventually to outright bus lanes use violations (along geary and o'farrell, for instance) and put us on a path to photo radar enforcement of every city intersection, and beefed-up enforcement of bike lanes violations through some sort of technology rather than humans. but since we're dreaming, i guess i'll just throw out a call for a ban of all red-line intersection turns, two waying every street in the city, and a doubling of the parking space levy in lieu of a full-on congestion charge.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2013, 8:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
^ In Arizona, the mailing of a photo-generated ticket does not satisfy rule 4(e) of the Arizona Rules of Civil Procedure regarding service of process in a civil action. Let's be clear - photo tickets are basically lawsuits for money damages, and thus subject to the ARCP. To effect service normally, you must hire a process server to have the service properly completed. Without proper service, the court does not have personal jurisdiction over the parties to the complaint. There's also the issue of notice. Despite this, Arizona courts still send these photo generated tickets by the thousands out to the public, implying that if you ignore the ticket, you could be found guilty or worse. They count on the ignorance of the public in this area.

I would suspect there are other states in this same situation. Anyone receiving a photo ticket in the mail should immediately check their state's rules of civil procedure to determine if the mailing of said citation constitutes proper service. They can also check with a local attorney. If it is not proper service, I would urge you to tear up that ticket and move on with your life.

If you want to issue citations, hire a cop to do it the right way. Don't take the easy/cheap/lazy way out to mail out tickets to people because it is expedient to do so.

--don
By definition, we're talking about assholes. Why would you want to protect them?
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 8:07 PM
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^ Because our system of justice has rules, and if we are going to encourage respect for the judicial system, allowing cops or other "institutions" of government to shortcut around things because it is "expedient" is highly dangerous.

It was deemed expedient during World War II for the government to round up every citizen of Japanese descent and put them in prisons, on the mere possibility that they might not support the U.S. war effort. We have long since learned that this sort of thing should not happen in a supposedly free and democratic society the U.S. represents.

Not every person that ends up in a bus lane is an "asshole," as you put it. Some may be lost, from out of town, end up there as a result of an accident, trying to render aid, or the myriad of other excuses that might actually justify someone being in that lane. Some shouldn't be there, but they may only be there for a moment or two before moving on. The state already has too much power - why would you want to worsen that power imbalance?

In Arizona, many photo radar installations were removed on the interstate freeways around Phoenix after a huge public outcry when it was established that the state government was using the photo radar citations to raise revenue.

--don
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
This comment makes me wonder if you've ever seen a bus lane.

1. The point is not to raise revenue. It's to keep bus lanes clear of cars so buses can actually use them.

2. Using actual police officers to enforce bus lanes does not not work, because you'd need a cop on every single block dedicated to nothing but writing tickets, which would be a horrible use of police manpower. Also, stopping the car to give them a ticket means they're still blocking the bus lane, which defeats the point of trying to keep it clear. City streets don't have shoulders, so if you "pull over" somebody to ticket them it means you're still in the travel lane.

Putting cameras on buses is far more practical for this purpose. The fact that some states may need authorizing legislation to do it is a complication, but does not mean it's "not the right way".
I've seen plenty of bus lanes, thank you. We have a few in downtown Phoenix. I've also traveled on a newfangled transportation device called an airplane and seen them in other cities, like New York City, Toronto and San Francisco.

If the point is not to raise revenue, forcing drivers to attend a traffic safety class at no charge to the violator would probably be more effective than just charging a fee. In Arizona, traffic safety classes are $130, way too much money for what they are. Half of the money generated flows into the coffers of the governmental entity that issued the violation in the first place. That, in my book, is the definition of "revenue raising."

Having more police officers is generally better than a static camera. A static camera can't ask questions, investigate a myriad of other crimes, make an arrest if the violator has outstanding warrants or act as a deterrent to criminals. If you break down in that bus lane, end up there as a result of an accident, or are helping the person who got hit in the crosswalk in front of you by another driver - the camera on these buses won't know any of that and will still issue a ticket. An officer will usually understand that exigent circumstances existed and not go there.

Cameras are cheap and they are revenue generators, and that is why governments are turning to them. It is a cheap expedient way to accomplish a particular goal. Even many police unions will tell you they do not support camera tickets like this. It potentially could take away jobs from real cops, for one thing.

--don
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 8:27 PM
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So the random confused driver gets a ticket just like the assholes do. So what? It's probably $50 or something. Good reminder for them too. Cameras are an effective tool and I say use the hell out of them.
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  #13  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 8:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
^ Because our system of justice has rules, and if we are going to encourage respect for the judicial system, allowing cops or other "institutions" of government to shortcut around things because it is "expedient" is highly dangerous.

It was deemed expedient during World War II for the government to round up every citizen of Japanese descent and put them in prisons, on the mere possibility that they might not support the U.S. war effort. We have long since learned that this sort of thing should not happen in a supposedly free and democratic society the U.S. represents.

Not every person that ends up in a bus lane is an "asshole," as you put it. Some may be lost, from out of town, end up there as a result of an accident, trying to render aid, or the myriad of other excuses that might actually justify someone being in that lane. Some shouldn't be there, but they may only be there for a moment or two before moving on. The state already has too much power - why would you want to worsen that power imbalance?

In Arizona, many photo radar installations were removed on the interstate freeways around Phoenix after a huge public outcry when it was established that the state government was using the photo radar citations to raise revenue.

--don
How is it not respecting the justice system? They can take the ticket to court and go through the proper channels like any other ticket. It is this same paranoid thinking of the government that is really getting old. How do you being to compare putting Japanese people in jails during WW2 to getting a ticket because you make a traffic offensive.

Where your wrong is these cameras aren't an expansion of power they are simply a more efficient way of enforcing traffic offensives. You can still take the ticket to court challenging it but this time there is video proof which people oh so love the idea of accountability these days to the government but how about accountability to themselves. Most people opposed this in Phoenix because one they rather get away with speeding or got a ticket for or because their republican or libertarian ideas make them paranoid of the government even for things as little as camera's to enforce traffic violations. No society is free their has to be rules else anarchy will ensue.

The state already has to much power? That is almost laughable right? If you attribute enforcing traffic violations with power then I almost can't believe what I am reading. It is this same paranoid thinking that is ridiculous especially when you dehumanize the people in the government like their not people when if you didn't notice the state government is a bunch of PEOPLE put together and they are just like me and you. Talk about making parallels well most terrible things that have happened in this world usually happen like the locking up of the Japanese when they dehumanize people which people like to do with government like it is robots running it.

The paranoid thinking is a little much when you are completely making a big deal out of this when it is no more complicated then they are enforcing traffic violations so people will get the hint to abide by the law at least. Their holding people accountable just like the people with the government. If it gains a little money while it is implemented then good I hope it goes towards transit and alternative transportation projects.

Edit: response to another post

So if you get a ticket and their are circumstances such as those where someone is hit in the crosswalk or your car broke down then you simply take these claims to court where you will see a person and I bet they will be easily overturn but lets get it straight those are rare circumstances and now you are just reaching for any straw you can get your hand on. Camera's help also where enforcement lack as their are simply not enough police officers to do this work and I rather have camera's helping relieve enforcement so more police officers get deal with real problems not so much a traffic offense.

Traffic safety class is not as effective as someone getting a ticket and if it is a joke to think these will take away from cops jobs as I don't know about you but most major departments i know or read about have their hands absolutely full and try to free their officers up from minor offenses any way they can.
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 9:07 PM
Don B. Don B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JG573 View Post
How is it not respecting the justice system? They can take the ticket to court and go through the proper channels like any other ticket. It is this same paranoid thinking of the government that is really getting old. How do you being to compare putting Japanese people in jails during WW2 to getting a ticket because you make a traffic offensive.

Where your wrong is these cameras aren't an expansion of power they are simply a more efficient way of enforcing traffic offensives. You can still take the ticket to court challenging it but this time there is video proof which people oh so love the idea of accountability these days to the government but how about accountability to themselves. Most people opposed this in Phoenix because one they rather get away with speeding or got a ticket for or because their republican or libertarian ideas make them paranoid of the government even for things as little as camera's to enforce traffic violations. No society is free their has to be rules else anarchy will ensue.

The state already has to much power? That is almost laughable right? If you attribute enforcing traffic violations with power then I almost can't believe what I am reading. It is this same paranoid thinking that is ridiculous especially when you dehumanize the people in the government like their not people when if you didn't notice the state government is a bunch of PEOPLE put together and they are just like me and you. Talk about making parallels well most terrible things that have happened in this world usually happen like the locking up of the Japanese when they dehumanize people which people like to do with government like it is robots running it.

The paranoid thinking is a little much when you are completely making a big deal out of this when it is no more complicated then they are enforcing traffic violations so people will get the hint to abide by the law at least. Their holding people accountable just like the people with the government. If it gains a little money while it is implemented then good I hope it goes towards transit and alternative transportation projects.

Edit: response to another post

So if you get a ticket and their are circumstances such as those where someone is hit in the crosswalk or your car broke down then you simply take these claims to court where you will see a person and I bet they will be easily overturn but lets get it straight those are rare circumstances and now you are just reaching for any straw you can get your hand on. Camera's help also where enforcement lack as their are simply not enough police officers to do this work and I rather have camera's helping relieve enforcement so more police officers get deal with real problems not so much a traffic offense.

Traffic safety class is not as effective as someone getting a ticket and if it is a joke to think these will take away from cops jobs as I don't know about you but most major departments i know or read about have their hands absolutely full and try to free their officers up from minor offenses any way they can.
You obviously haven't been in a position to have to contest something that shouldn't have been issued in the first place. I clerked for a justice court judge in law school and found the system slanted significantly in favor of the state. Fairness plays virtually no role in the process - it's about processing as many people through the system and extracting money from each and every one of them, regardless of the minor details. Most people don't know the rules of civil or traffic case procedures and they are fighting an uphill battle. Pretty much if it comes down to it, and it is your word versus the cop's word or a camera operated by the government issuing citations, you are going to lose, period. I was not "comparing" traffic violations with Japanese internment camps - I was merely pointing out that anytime you allow government to cut corners because it is expedient, you actually may be jeopardizing your freedoms.

Don't talk about "most people in Phoenix" unless you live here. Speaking in generalities is almost always incorrect. And don't appeal to the absurd - I am not suggesting we have no rules at all and thus am pushing for anarchy. I AM suggesting that we may wish to keep a watchful eye on government. If they want to issue citations through the mail, they should do it the same way that people suing each other for money damages have to do - with the use of a process server to properly serve the complaint and announce the lawsuit for money damages. This is why having a cop write the ticket eliminates the need to hire a process server - the cop handing you the ticket IS proper service in every U.S. state.

As for the revenue raised, if it actually was earmarked just for improving transportation, I'd have slightly less of a problem with it. However, in every state where I have examined where this money goes, it always goes into the general fund, to be spent however the government wants to spend it. In fact, many states have been using the transportation dollars (e.g. gas tax revenue) they get from the federal government to balance their budgets. Arizona is one of those offending states, and there are many others.

Bottom line - I wish to force the governments (city, county and state) to play by the same rules as the rest of us. If I want to sue you for money damages, I don't get to mail you a copy of the lawsuit and threaten to lock you up/issue a warrant/suspend your driver's license (even though none of that may actually happen - as in Arizona) unless you cough up the dough. That is blackmail and it is sleazy. Having seen personally a number of mistakes with photo-generated tickets, I am reluctant to give the government more powers to fleece money from us.

--don

Last edited by Don B.; Feb 18, 2013 at 9:30 PM.
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  #15  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 9:15 PM
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Driving is a privilege, not a right. I only wish a helicopter could pick em up.
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  #16  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 9:27 PM
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I'd be all for just eliminating parking on the side of the streets in question and building curbs to keep cars out of the lane.

This (photo enforcement) seems to be the more politically possible way of accomplishing the same thing. I don't see it as a revenue generating device, so if it accomplishes the goal but no one actually pays the tickets, fine by me.

BTW - in this case the money does go directly to the SFCTA, not any kind of general fund. It's treated just like any other parking violation in SF.

Last edited by Gordo; Feb 18, 2013 at 10:26 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 9:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don B. View Post
You obviously haven't been in a position to have to contest something that shouldn't have been issued in the first place. I clerked for a justice court judge in law school and found the system slanted significantly in favor of the state. Fairness plays virtually no role in the process - it's about processing as many people through the system and extracting money from each and every one of them, regardless of the minor details. Most people don't know the rules of civil or traffic case procedures and they are fighting an uphill battle. Pretty much if it comes down to it, and it is your word versus the cop's word or a camera operated by the government issuing citations, you are going to lose, period. I was not "comparing" traffic violations with Japanese internment camps - I was merely pointing out that anytime you allow government to cut corners because it is expedient, you actually may be jeopardizing your freedoms.

Don't talk about "most people in Phoenix" unless you live here. Speaking in generalities is almost always incorrect. And don't appeal to the absurd - I am not suggesting we have no rules at all and thus am pushing for anarchy. I AM suggesting that we may wish to keep a watchful eye on government. If they want to issue citations through the mail, they should do it the same way that people suing each other for money damages have to do - with the use of a process server to properly serve the complaint and announce the lawsuit for money damages. This is why having a cop write the ticket eliminates the need to hire a process server - the cop handing you the ticket IS proper service in every U.S. state.

As for the revenue raised, if it actually was earmarked just for improving transportation, I'd have slightly less of a problem with it. However, in every state where I have examined where this money goes, it always goes into the general fund, to be spent however the government wants to spend it. In fact, many states have been using the transportation dollars (e.g. gas tax revenue) they get from the federal government to balance their budgets. Arizona is one of those offending states, and there are many others.

Bottom line - I wish to force the governments (city, county and state) to play by the same rules as the rest of us. If I want to sue you for money damages, I don't get to mail you a copy of the lawsuit and threaten to lock you up/issue a warrant/suspend your driver's license (even though none of that may actually happen - as in Arizona) unless you cough up the dough. That is blackmail and it is sleazy. Having seen personally a number of mistakes with photo-generated tickets, I am reluctant to give the government more powers to fleece money from us.

--don
Who is speaking in generalization when your first paragraph goes right into a personal experience that you used to generalize the whole system. That first paragraph is just more paranoia that the government is always out to get us act. Also how is it cutting corners? It is not it is the most efficient way of enforcing the laws. If a business use efficient methods its a good thing but now when the government uses cutting edge technology to enforce laws it is somehow cutting edges? How is it jeopardizing freedoms when the don't drive in bus lanes is already law? This is just a better way of enforcing it. So how can it be losing freedom when the freedom to drive in a bus lane is already against the law.

The absurd? Its absurd to think that you can keep a watchful on the government but when it comes to them enforcing the laws you think they can't keep a watchful eye on you. It is a two way street and you should be held just as accountable as the government so when it comes to committing a traffic violation you need to be held accountable and the best way to do it is cameras that catch people doing it that otherwise can't because we don't have enough police officers to. This will make things clear and send a message that their watching for offenders.Their doesn't need to be a server or a cop hand you a simply traffic offense when it comes down to it, it is more efficient to send it in the mail and then you can either own up to committing the offense or if you feel your wrongfully accused then you can take it to court.

It doesn't matter to me if it is going to the general fund as long as it is help balance the budget and fund the things we need that we trusted are elected officials to take care of. Whether it goes to schools, transportation, enforcement it is fine with me. It is not sleazy or blackmail it is a official citations for a crime you where caught committing on camera and if you don't agree you can do what someone always does and that is take it to court. It is the same as a cop giving you a ticket in respect to that you pay or else and if you contest it you go to court. It is using the same process we always have just without the police officer which should be able to focus on other areas besides having to hand out citations just because you deem it is proper service.

Bottom line is this paranoid the government is out to get me and take my money is ridiculous as one the amount of money they make from this will be nothing basically and the other thing is if you don't go in the bus lane you will not have a problem simple as that. It is not a expansion of power or being overbearing it is just a efficient way of enforcing the offensives that are already law as we only have so many police officers.

You keep saying they need to play by the same rules but what makes you not have to play by the same rules. If your so bent on holding them accountable why can't they hold you and everyone else accountable for these offensive they are committing. Like I said it is a two way street and you and everyone else needs to play by the same rules you hold the government to. The only thing the taking away the cameras will do is allow more people to get away with offenses. It won't limit there power in any way it is just another stupid fight that paranoid people take up because they always think the government is out to get them and there money.
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  #18  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2013, 12:27 AM
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Don't want to receive a ticket in the mail for parking your planet-wrecker in a San Francisco bus lane? Then don't park in the bus lane. Asshole.
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Old Posted Feb 19, 2013, 3:16 PM
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I can't believe this discussion. We're not rounding up Japanese Americans and putting them in camps here.

Let's review a few things.

The streets belong to ALL of the people. The public. Not just drivers. The government is the appointed steward of the use of those resources.

Driving on those roads is a privilege. Not a right. If you violate the law while driving, you are subject to fines and other penalties.

Self centered assholes - or just confused out-of-towners block transit lanes all the time. One law-breaking person inconveniences 50 law abiding people in the bus behind them, to say nothing of the impact on the overall transit system.

If cameras reduce the above through awareness and punishment, I'm all for it. The same principle has proven effective for other vehicular violations.

If you get a ticket and really didn't do it, you can contest it through all the usual channels. I know people who has successfully done this for red light tickets.

San Francisco's stated and officially adopted city policy is transit first. If you don't like that, don't move here.
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Old Posted Feb 19, 2013, 3:36 PM
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Over a thousand London buses have camera systems, and whilst I'm not sure how much the systems generated in fines, separate roadside cameras generated $25mn in fines last year.

They make a lot of sense, especially in bus-crazy cities such as London where roadspace is at a premium.
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