The next GVRD rapid transit line?

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yeah West Van has been very anti-transit so I doubt they'll get anything beyond Park Royal for quite awhile. North Van is more interested but between the cost to get it across the water vs the population I'd say TransLink is for now only giving lip service to them getting a line. If they could extend the Canada Line from Waterfront ... but we've had that conversation before.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the best way to implement SkyTrain for the North Shore is to simply get a line or lines across Burrard Inlet, and not bother with an east-west line until (or if) the demand warrants it. The oft-discussed Hastings Line could start at Park Royal or Capilano, cross the inlet, service the West End and Hastings, then either cross back to terminate at Phibbs Exchange or connect with a Willingdon Line that starts at Phibbs. That gives Vancouver significantly more capacity while giving commuters three rapid routes (including SeaBus) to and from the North Shore independent of the bridges. RapidBus and regular transit, in conjunction with increased bus priority infrastructure, can feed into both North Shore stations. It is not as fast for east-west travel, certainly, but it does mean that the bus fleet is significantly less affected by bridge and freeway congestion, which is a major source for slowdowns.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Problem is that we need to reduce traffic within the North Shore as well, not just to it. Any SkyTrain route we get needs to replace at least part of the R2.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Problem is that we need to reduce traffic within the North Shore as well, not just to it. Any SkyTrain route we get needs to replace at least part of the R2.

I think a fixed connection between Phibbs and the rest of the Skytrain network would do a lot of work to bring the R2 more online. As it stands today, the R2 isn't exactly the busiest RapidBus.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Problem is that we need to reduce traffic within the North Shore as well, not just to it. Any SkyTrain route we get needs to replace at least part of the R2.

At some point, definitely, but in the short to medium term the cost may not be justified and the public support may not be there for the kind of densification that would lead to. As with other points in the SkyTrain system, the end stations can be designed with expansion in mind; just make sure it is easy to head east from Park Royal and west from Phibbs Exchange. RapidBus lines can fan out from the existing transit hubs at those stations and feed passengers into the system. I do think that we'd get a great improvement in local bus service if many of the bus routes (210/240/246/247/etc) were not so drastically affected by bridge slowdowns. I'd honestly rather see that as it could allow a connection to the North Shore, future-proofed for expansion, while saving funds for other potential SkyTrain projects such as Willingdon, 41st or south Richmond.

Originally Posted by chowhou

I think a fixed connection between Phibbs and the rest of the Skytrain network would do a lot of work to bring the R2 more online. As it stands today, the R2 isn't exactly the busiest RapidBus.

Yes, and there's definitely room to improve the R2's reliability as well. I could be wrong, but I think that there are plans to try to upgrade the Lynn Creek bridge on Main Street to get transit priority lanes, since that is a big issue when traffic to the IWM is backed up.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I think a fixed connection between Phibbs and the rest of the Skytrain network would do a lot of work to bring the R2 more online. As it stands today, the R2 isn't exactly the busiest RapidBus.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

At some point, definitely, but in the short to medium term the cost may not be justified and the public support may not be there for the kind of densification that would lead to. As with other points in the SkyTrain system, the end stations can be designed with expansion in mind; just make sure it is easy to head east from Park Royal and west from Phibbs Exchange. RapidBus lines can fan out from the existing transit hubs at those stations and feed passengers into the system. I'd honestly rather see that as it could allow a connection to the North Shore, future0proofed for expansion, while saving funds for other potential SkyTrain projects such as Willingdon, 41st or south Richmond.

I'd argue that if we've already done the hard part (getting across the inlet), we might as do the easy part. South Richmond and 41st aren't really bigger priorities than Lonsdale is; Newton or Willingdon, maybe, but how much money are we going to free up by skipping an extra 3-4 klicks?

Besides, replacing even half the R2 lets us free up artics to put somewhere else.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'd argue that if we've already done the hard part (getting across the inlet), we might as do the easy part. South Richmond and 41st aren't really bigger priorities than Lonsdale is; Newton or Willingdon, maybe, but how much money are we going to free up by skipping an extra 3-4 klicks?

Besides, replacing even half the R2 lets us free up artics to put somewhere else.

Yes, it is most probably easier to go east-west than to cross the inlet, although it will not be all that cheap to build 5km from Park Royal to the Quay (or 4km from Phibbs). You're either tunnelling through whatever is under the ground near Marine Drive/Main or you are expropriating properties at North Shore real estate prices, if there's even support for an elevated guideway.

I really do think that simply connecting to the North Shore will make a big difference. If you are trying to get people out of their cars, you're not going to sell them on transit if the bus is crawling through bridge traffic right next to them. On the other hand, if commuters are aware that they can easily get downtown regardless of the bridge conditions, they would be more inclined to switch. That's the big hook; slightly faster travel time to the guaranteed crossing isn't as big a sell as the guarantee itself.

With respect to other lines, it would be similar to how Surrey was added to the SkyTrain network in stages. Get the initial line in place to the North Shore, while adding additional service such as an eastern north-south line, instead of having to choose between one or the other.

As for the Artics, you can buy an awful lot of them for the cost of the east-west line...

[djmk]

It seems like a huge amount of the traffic going across the bridge are huge trucks, ferry traffic, whistler traffic, skiers, mountain bikers, and other weekend warriors.

ironically, I find traffic going into north van in the morning the hardest and weekends the worst.

I don't think a skytrain will solve this.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Adding up total Grouse and Cypress attendance give me ~5,000 people/day (rounding up for Seymour); Whistler is ~8,300, and Horseshoe Bay is ~5,600, so assuming they're all just there for a day trip, that's about 19,000 recreational visitors... out of 20k going into the North Shore, 40k going out of it, and 33k commuting inside it.

That leaves 74k potential SkyTrain converts, plus the existing bus riders. It's hardly the GMT where most traffic is going through Delta instead of to/from it.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by djmk

Ironically, I find traffic going into north van in the morning the hardest and weekends the worst.

This has been a real change over time; it used to be that (as you might expect) the morning rush would be heading downtown and the afternoon is returning, with limited opposing traffic. The traditional rush hour traffic is still there, of course, but there is a significant volume of traffic heading in the opposite direction nowadays. It is not unusual to see backups for the Ironworkers Memorial Bridge stretching along Highway 1 out to Willingdon and beyond at 10 in the morning. The afternoon backup to go south over the bridges, especially the IM, means that contractors coming to the North Shore often want to start early and wrap up by 2 PM so as to avoid the traffic.

[Conrad Yablonski]

I hope my contribution isn't too frivolous but I see some ideas posted here that would be very appealing to visitors- already the Seabus is famous as a 'budget mini cruise' of Vancouver harbour.

[bloomtronzero]

Originally Posted by ninjakafi_81

All that's being discussed on here reminds me of what I had on my transit fantasy map.

The Red Line goes along 41st Avenue from UBC to Joyce Station, pretty much mimicking the current R4. From there I sent it across Boundary Road to Burnaby Hospital and down to Willingdon Avenue to connect with BCIT. It then goes up Willingdon Avenue to Hastings Street where it would terminate at around Kootenay Loop / PNE during off peak hours. During peak hours trains would continue down Hastings Street to a Downtown.

The green line is the new North Shore Line I envisioned. Instead of what is currently planned by the government, I decided to just add all the concepts together to create a loop line. This way you have a new E/W line on the North Shore and along Hastings Street in Vancouver. During peak hours, Red Line trains would be doing through service along this line. Because of this, the new station in Downtown would be built with 3 platforms. 1 WB platform and 2 EB platforms sharing an Island platform.

Lastly the Purple Line is to provide a relief to the Expo Line when the time comes. Starting from Waterfront Station it'll go down Main Street then shoot down Kingsway to where it'll terminate in the South Gate area.

That bit east of Boundary would be the hard part. There's no obvious cut-through there. It could go up Boundary until Still Creek maybe, or you knock down the school and some houses. I've looked at it a lot, and I just don't know how you'd easily extend past Boundary without a tonne of problems.

49th, you cut through a corner of Central Park and run up Willingdon, connecting Metrotown and Brentwood, much easier if initially less attractive than 41st.

Someone else said it'd need to connect to existing lines somewhere for train stock and such. Whether it's 41 or 49, connecting as a sort of extension of the Millennium Line in UBC makes sense. Millennium Line turns south, loops back as a nominally-different line going east.


As an aside, for that Hastings and North Shore bit, my fantasy always had the Willingdon line crossing by a bridge by the refinery, and a separate Hastings Line going west and repurposing the Lion's Gate as a SkyTrain bridge. It'd never happen, taking away a car crossing like that though.