2014 Quebec General Election + General Separatism Discussion

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Martin Mtl

What surprises me is that they want to move to Ontario, where the unemployment is not much better than here, instead of Alberta.

I'm really fade up myself of all the anglophobia and xenophobic shit going on here, but I have to remind myself that it's not nearly as bad as the media makes it to appear. On the street of Montreal, anglo and franco get along just fine. But the PQ propaganda about Montreal becoming more anglophone and less french is very efficient and it scares Quebecers from the regions, who really fall into the trap and believe that the island is becoming anglophone. This is becoming a ROQ versus Montreal thing. And at the end, Montreal will be the biggest looser. But the PQ doesn't give a damn about Montreal because they don't need the island voters to get a majority. They will happily bankrupt the city if that's what they need to do to get a majority. The PQ is playing on ROQ's natural hate of Montreal.

Do you think that the difference between Montreal and ROQ will become greater if the PQ gets a majority government?

I felt like the Charter issue really brought out the divisions between cosmopolitan Montreal and homogeneous ROQ on some basic ideological level.

Or do you think that Montreal will become more like ROQ, or vice-versa?

[harls]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

The most popular destination choice for non-francophones (and francophones) considering leaving Quebec is Ontario, at about 40%.

40% of people that want to leave want to go to Ontario. Big surprise. It's next door.

I love stats.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

I'm not sure I understand this statement.

In order to obtain a "real offer or an opportunity outside of the province" one must usually* be "actively seeking".

* The exception being unsolicited recruitment.

People talk and exchange with people outside the province all the time. Especially Montreal anglos. That's how many opportunities for employment come about.

It's not the same as someone who has a good job in Montreal taking a "cold" job hunting trip to Calgary or Toronto.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct to a large degree. Something like this is not really gonna sway anybody away from PQ if that's what they intended to do.

Jean-Guy, you better not vote for the PQ, because if you do, a bunch of anglos might move to Ontario!

Indeed, it would probably galvanize more people in Quebec (especially outside of Montreal) to vote for the PQ.

The PQ must be half-happy, half-sad about this poll, I'm sure they were hoping it would be closer to 100%.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by harls

40% of people that want to leave want to go to Ontario. Big surprise. It's next door.

I love stats.

New Brunswick is also next door.

I wonder why people don't want to go to New Brunswick with the same gusto as they want to go to Ontario.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Certainly. Quebec can relax knowing that moving can be very difficult to do. Therefore, even though substantial groups of people want to leave Quebec, they may never be able to achieve their dreams because of the difficulties involved.

Dreams.... What you see in this poll is more in reaction to the possibility of the PQ forming a majority...it is easy to say something in a poll. How much of those people are thinking seriously about leaving for real? Likely not that much.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Indeed, it would probably galvanize more people in Quebec (especially outside of Montreal) to vote for the PQ.

The PQ must be half-happy, half-sad about this poll, I'm sure they were hoping it would be closer to 100%.

Not really. People who would be happy about this already vote for the PQ.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

New Brunswick is also next door.

I wonder why people don't want to go to New Brunswick with the same gusto as they want to go to Ontario.

Poorer economy, relatively lesser urbanity, and for some Anglos, the bilingualism may be a slight deterrent. I do know a few Anglo Quebeckers with their eyes set on Nova Scotia (and one Montreal Francophone couple, even, who hate Marois and the PQ in general, but don't want to go west or to Ontario).

But if something dramatic like sovereignty happened, I think you'd still find an influx of some sort to the eastern provinces, New Brunswick included, but not as dramatic as the westward flow.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Acajack

People talk and exchange with people outside the province all the time. Especially Montreal anglos. That's how many opportunities for employment come about.

It's not the same as someone who has a good job in Montreal taking a "cold" job hunting trip to Calgary or Toronto.

Interesting that you don't mention Ottawa.

The opportunities for employment can only come about if a candidate is seeking, or at least receptive to discuss the subject. Otherwise there can be no talk or exchange on the subject.

And who actually takes a "cold trip" to job hunt for a "good job"?

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Do you think that the difference between Montreal and ROQ will become greater if the PQ gets a majority government?

I felt like the Charter issue really brought out the divisions between cosmopolitan Montreal and homogeneous ROQ on some basic ideological level.

Or do you think that Montreal will become more like ROQ, or vice-versa?

I don't know. It's not a yes or no thing, it's way more complicated than that. I think that Montreal is richer because it's a bilingual city, but most PQ voters would argue that it's suppose to be only a french city. Pauline Marois doesn't speak english ! It's beyond ridiculous for someone at her position. But it tells a lot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Do you think that the difference between Montreal and ROQ will become greater if the PQ gets a majority government?

I felt like the Charter issue really brought out the divisions between cosmopolitan Montreal and homogeneous ROQ on some basic ideological level.

Or do you think that Montreal will become more like ROQ, or vice-versa?

People tend to have short memories too, because Montreal and the ROQ are arguably more intertwined and part of the same ''society'' today than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

Somebody from the ''ROQ'' today can go to Montreal and speak in French to basically any Montrealer regardless of that person's ethnic origin, and even shoot the shit with them and joke around. That wasn't the case in 1974.

And the Montrealer's kids will at least know the same cultural reference point as the ROQer's kids will, as stuff like Marie-Mai, Mixmania, Les Pee-Wee, etc. is as well known to most kids in Montreal regardless of origin these days.

30-40 years ago, many non-French Canadian kids in Montreal would have answered ''who the fuck is that?'' when the names of Quebec celebrities of the day would have been mentioned to them.

I don't live in Montreal but I have anglo colleagues who walk up to me on Monday mornings and chat about the guests on Tout le monde en parle the night before. This would not have been possible a generation or two ago.

Certainly there is a philosophical and political gap on the Charter (and probably several other issues as well) between Montreal and the ROQ, but on a practical level they are perhaps better integrated than they have ever been. Certainly in my lifetime.

And Sugar Sammy's new show in French premiered on V last night...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxQT76zNHO8

[harls]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

New Brunswick is also next door.

I wonder why people don't want to go to New Brunswick with the same gusto as they want to go to Ontario.

I see more parallels with ON/QC than QC/NB, regardless of language. Surely you must see this too?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Interesting that you don't mention Ottawa.

The opportunities for employment can only come about if a candidate is seeking, or at least receptive to discuss the subject. Otherwise there can be no talk or exchange on the subject.

And who actually takes a "cold trip" to job hunt for a "good job"?

Well, at least doing an active search on the web to find possible jobs. That's more ''21st century'' I suppose.

And sure, Ottawa is a popular destination too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

I see more parallels with ON/QC than QC/NB, regardless of language. Surely you must see this too?

NB is also a lot further away from where most non-francophones in Quebec live. Even if they do leave they will likely leave some friends and family in Quebec. It's easier to visit them from Ottawa or Toronto than from Fredericton.

Of course far-away Calgary and Vancouver draw these people as well but they have advantages that NB does not.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Poorer economy, relatively lesser urbanity, and for some Anglos, the bilingualism may be a slight deterrent. I do know a few Anglo Quebeckers with their eyes set on Nova Scotia (and one Montreal Francophone couple, even, who hate Marois and the PQ in general, but don't want to go west or to Ontario).

But if something dramatic like sovereignty happened, I think you'd still find an influx of some sort to the eastern provinces, New Brunswick included, but not as dramatic as the westward flow.

I doubt the bilingualism is a significant deterrent for Anglos because the top destination choices within Ontario for Anglos in Quebec according to the article is Ottawa first and Eastern Ontario second.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by harls

I see more parallels with ON/QC than QC/NB, regardless of language. Surely you must see this too?

My point is that people want to move to Ontario in part because Ontario is an attractive destination. Proximity alone does not explain it, because Quebec neighbors other areas, as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Exactly. It's only 50% of the population group that the PQ wants out of Quebec.

And if you drilled down further, in that 50% of anglophones who want to leave you likely have fewer of them who, as harls said, are bedding sexy francophones... the classier way to put it is that they are more integrated into francophone families, and more likely to speak French.

Same goes for allophones: betcha many of those who are thinking of leaving are part of the more anglo-oriented crowd.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Acajack

People tend to have short memories too, because Montreal and the ROQ are arguably more intertwined and part of the same ''society'' today than they were 30 or 40 years ago.

Somebody from the ''ROQ'' today can go to Montreal and speak in French to basically any Montrealer regardless of that person's ethnic origin, and even shoot the shit with them and joke around. That wasn't the case in 1974.

And the Montrealer's kids will at least know the same cultural reference point as the ROQer's kids will, as stuff like Marie-Mai, Mixmania, Les Pee-Wee, etc. is as well known to most kids in Montreal regardless of origin these days.

30-40 years ago, many non-French Canadian kids in Montreal would have answered ''who the fuck is that?'' when the names of Quebec celebrities of the day would have been mentioned to them.

I don't live in Montreal but I have anglo colleagues who walk up to me on Monday mornings and chat about the guests on Tout le monde en parle the night before. This would not have been possible a generation or two ago.

Certainly there is a philosophical and political gap on the Charter (and probably several other issues as well) between Montreal and the ROQ, but on a practical level they are perhaps better integrated than they have ever been. Certainly in my lifetime.

And Sugar Sammy's new show in French premiered on V last night...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxQT76zNHO8

I don't know, I'd prefer a Montrealer's perspective on it rather than a ROQer's perspective.

No doubt ROQers on an urban forum would want to be associated strongly with cosmopolitan, urban Montreal. Not sure how strong that desire is the other way around.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

My point is that people want to move to Ontario in part because Ontario is an attractive destination. Proximity alone does not explain it, because Quebec neighbors other areas, as well.

It is also more urbanized, which is the type of environment most non-francophones in Quebec are more accustomed to. And as I said, closer to friends and family left behind in Quebec.

[suburbanite]

I'm curious as to what an anglophone's fear regarding language would be given a PQ majority? How much can a provincial government truly discriminate against a group of people who speak a different language before clashing with federal legislation?