Southwestern Ontario

[Symz]

I just wanted to pick everyone's brains here on as to why I think or you think Southwestern Ontario south of say K-W/Cambridge, has developed at the rate it has. By this I mean slower than one would think and do you agree with my opinion that it's a bit under-developed.

I'm going to use Essex County as my prime example because I am most familiar with it living here, but I would say between here and K-W/Cambridge the growth is relatively the same and it feels slow considering soo many other places in the country seem to be cashing in on a boom.

In Essex County we have the warmest weather in a country known for it's cooler weather, we also get the most sunshine in the country on a yearly basis, and have the longest summers and shortest winters in Canada. We're practially the bananna belt of Canada. I can understand that with our relative flatness in the landscape combined with those two above factors it makes us a prime region for farming and that could be the reason, but I'd still like to explore the idea of why you guys, or anybody thinks that Southwestern Ontario hasn't seem to have grown as much as it seems it could have.

Down here we are surrounded by plenty of fresh water for pleasure seekers and water oriented people.

I know Windsor is perceived as a blue collar lunch bucket auto workers town, but we're also a gateway city.

I know that Toronto is the centre of the universe , but that aside if you look at Windsor, or even London for that matter, we both have good connectivity to the U.S. Windsor is directly across from Detroit, 5 hrs from Chicago, 4 hrs from Cincinnatti, 4hrs from Buffalo, 3 hrs from Cleveland, 5 hrs from Pittsburgh, 4 hrs from Toronto, and even 10 hrs from New York.

Ya I know I got carried away, but my point is depending on how you look at it we're somewhat centrally located and yet for the most part when you come down this way it feels like you're driving on down to the back country and then oh ya, there's the U.S.! I mean if Detroit wasn't there you would almost feel like you're driving to some isolated small city on the tip of an island, the growth just doesn't trickle down here, or if it does it's slow.

I'm just curious on people's opinions on this and why do you think the growth in Ontario is soo centralized? I know we're within X number of hours drive from alot of places, especially Toronto only being 4 hours away, but in a way it feels like it could be 20hrs away at the same time if you get what I'm saying.

Side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the province gave municipalities the ultimatum to merge or annex to streamline municipalities and municipal services (this when places like London saw a dramatic jump from annexing?) from what I've read over the years in our local papers Windsor and it's surrounding neighbours were really the only region that did not merge or annex. We've seen more rapid growth with respect to suburbs in Windsor's outlying towns which practically rub shoulder to shoulder with Windsor than we have in the city and I can't say it feels like it's benefiting the area. If we're less densely populated because we're a farming region than why is the region soo secular and instead of growing a stronger central city in the county are we constantly paving over farm fields and slapping up more and more strip malls?

I just never understood it. It also always seems like the county and city are at odds on eachother and it's city vs. county while the rest of the province has amalgamated into seemingly stronger regions.

Is it like this where you live as well?

[flar]

it's the forgotten part of ontario pleas don't let it be discovered! I love going back to the small towns I knew growing up, they're so relaxed and quiet. All that farmland is way too valuable to Canada to be paved over.

[Blitz]

It's hard for the region to grow maybe because Toronto is not that far away and major companies would rather set up there, plus that's where most of the new immigrants go as well.

But really, I don't want to see the southwest develop any faster. It's more of a wholesome, agricultural area (similar to the midwest US) and yes parts of it are socially unprogressive but it is what it is. Leave the insane development (and all the problems that come along with it) to the GTA.

Regarding annexations, I think the Harris government went overboard (for example merging Chatham with all of Kent County was ludicrous) but in most areas it seems to have worked. Windsor is just a different animal (I think part of this might be because we see the way Detroit's suburbs fight against the central city there). The province won't force Windsor to annex because they would lose too many votes if they did.

[Symz]

It's not that I want to see Windsor turn into a Toronto, but some interest in development other than a strip plaza or a factory would be nice.

The other interesting thing with Windsor is it's not a quiet town that hasn't changed in a long time that has some decent 'quaint' architecture a lot of the old architecture has been torn down and replaced with tacky stuff from the 1950's-1970's it's very 'bleh'.

What other cities for fun can you guys think of that is predominantly filled with awful architecture from the 50's-70's?

[Blitz]

The downtown part of Windsor might have more modern architecture than most downtowns but there are other parts of the city like Walkerville and Sandwich that make up for it that people forget about (cities like London and Kitchener don't even have neighbourhoods like that, but their downtowns tend to have older architecture).

The thing about Windsor is you really have to explore more than just its downtown in order to appreciate it's entire history. That can't be said for other cities in the region.

[bolognium]

Since I've only ever lived in London and KWC I'm curious to know what makes those districts unique, Blitz.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Symz

It's not that I want to see Windsor turn into a Toronto, but some interest in development other than a strip plaza or a factory would be nice.

The other interesting thing with Windsor is it's not a quiet town that hasn't changed in a long time that has some decent 'quaint' architecture a lot of the old architecture has been torn down and replaced with tacky stuff from the 1950's-1970's it's very 'bleh'.

What other cities for fun can you guys think of that is predominantly filled with awful architecture from the 50's-70's?

I think that Windsor is not unique when it comes to bad developement in the 50's to 70's era. I've seen many other cities with the same ugly designs, although Windsor does have more than it's fair share. It seemed that any building going up in Windsor during that period consisted of an ugly square covered in brown house brick. London was no better with many of their buildings made of grey concrete slabs, very Communist in style.

It's a crime that Windsor just levelled anything and everything to make room for these developements. Hopefully this way of thinking is gone forever.

[Symz]

I love looking through 'The Vault' pictures on the Windsor Star because they show soo many old pictures of Windsor and even the surrounding towns from long ago. It looks like there was soo much that could have been preserved and now it's all gone.

[north 42]

^ I love those old pics too, especially the ones where you see Ouellette Ave filled with shoppers and people going about thier business. So sad that today there is only maybe a fraction of the pedestrians there was back then.

I understand though that it's a different world now, and retail isn't just concentrated downtown. It is possible though to have a healthy and lively mix of shops , offices and entertainment in the city centre, and I think we are on our way to achieving that, albeit very slowly.

[ssiguy]

Remember that up until about 1960 Windsor was bigger than London.
I also think the idea that Windsor and Hamilton are dirty and gritty Labatt's Blue kinda places is no longer true but that's not the point. The point is that the stigma still remains. This is similar to the situations of Pittsburg and Cleveland in the US. Both cities have done complete 180s and brought their downtowns back to life and are far better than most US cities in terms of liveability and vibrancy but the stigma remains. Their reputations are there worse enemies and London is the beneficiary of it's "wealthy white collar WASP city" reputation.
It's not fair but that attitude still prevails.

[flar]

If Windsor were ever bigger than London, it was only for a very brief period. Windsor is an old settlement, but didn't really become a large city until the older settlements like Sandwich, Ford City and Walkerville started to merge into one urban area, probably around the 1940s or so.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Remember that up until about 1960 Windsor was bigger than London.
I also think the idea that Windsor and Hamilton are dirty and gritty Labatt's Blue kinda places is no longer true but that's not the point. The point is that the stigma still remains. This is similar to the situations of Pittsburg and Cleveland in the US. Both cities have done complete 180s and brought their downtowns back to life and are far better than most US cities in terms of liveability and vibrancy but the stigma remains. Their reputations are there worse enemies and London is the beneficiary of it's "wealthy white collar WASP city" reputation.
It's not fair but that attitude still prevails.

This is true, but I think that these perceptions are changing in all three cities, Windsor's and Hamilton's are improving and London's is going down. In the end, hopefully their reputations will all be reflective of their current realities and not some outdated perception.

[flar]

The perception is not entirely wrong, Hamilton is still very gritty and there are entire streets with boarded up buildings and downtown is still full of the kind of people who scare suburban types. The problem is that many people think the whole city is like that, but there are many nice areas.

[north 42]

^ I've never actually been in downtown Hamilton, but I have heard many refferences to dangerous areas and very sketchy people there. I think both Windsor and London also have some of this in their cores, but not to that extent.

I've been hearing more good things about Hamilton recently than bad, which is great for the city's image. I'm sure it has a long way to go to lose that bad rap, but it sounds like they're getting there.

We have a lot of beggars here in downtown Windsor, but we're getting more new startup hi-tech companies opening up in the core, and I think that makes a huge difference in the makeup of who's walking around and how safe people feel.

I know that in London, there is also a percieved problem with crackheads and street people in their downtown, but I have never felt unsafe there, just as I have never felt unsafe here in Windsor.

[flar]

None of these cities are dangerous in the least. Too many people are just afraid of anything that isn't familiar and sterilized to comply with suburban middle class standards.

[north 42]

I agree, if you want dangerous, go to some American cities, they're the dangerous ones. Although even in Detroit I don't feel scared, as long as you know where to go and where not to go, you're usually ok. Now I'm not sure about some of the western cities in Canada, I hear they have a lot of problems with the native populations in some of their downtowns. I know they have an all over higher rate of violent crime than their eastern counterparts.

[flar]

The western cities do have higher crime rates, but they're still nothing compared to US cities. I've been out in Regina and Winnipeg late at night and never had problems. A lot of the violence is within the Aboriginal communities.

[Symz]

Originally Posted by flar

The western cities do have higher crime rates, but they're still nothing compared to US cities. I've been out in Regina and Winnipeg late at night and never had problems. A lot of the violence is within the Aboriginal communities.

Living next to Detroit I know all about the crime in U.S. cities, it's just craziness watching Detroit news sometimes.

Side note: I often think it's funny when we have snow in the winter you'll hear on the radio that almost 90% of the schools in Detroit are closed because of the snow while everything in Windsor is still open oO, hehe.

[north 42]

It's amazing that Windsor and Detroit share so much in common, but are completely different at the same time. To me, Detroit is as much my home town as Windsor is, I would never live there though. I'm married to an American, but we love living here.

[Blitz]

I've lived in Winnipeg and there's really only one 'scary' part of town where most of the murders happen. I wouldn't consider it a dangerous city but it has social problems you don't find in Ontario cities.

haha yeah, schools in Windsor NEVER close due to snow even if a foot of it has fallen overnight...it's like a running joke. I think they closed once in 1992 but that was the last time.

I agree that in the early 1990s it was different...but these days I think Windsor, London, and Hamilton are all coming closer together in terms of a 'stigma'. They are all mid-sized cities in the same boat with similar problems and similar economies.

Windsor counted on the auto industry for so long that I don't think city leaders cared much about what the city looked like because they didn't care so much about attracting new investment. But in the last 10 years or so, tens of millions of dollars have been spent just on aesthetics and streetscaping alone - and it's really improved the impression for both tourists and residents. There's a lot more planned for the next 5 years too.