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  #81  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I’m not jealous. I’m glad we’re not Europe. Chicago to Cincy trains would be a complete waste of resources.

You can drive. And now, with electric cars on the horizon and an electric charging network planned, it will be way more eco-friendly.

Trains should only be regional (ie metropolitan, like Chicago’s Metra), otherwise cars and planes should be enough.
I don't understand, do you think Europeans are unable to drive? There are expressways all over the continent. I could drive from Milan to Rome via the E35. It's roughly the same distance as Chicago to Nashville, so it's a days drive and exhausting--and god forbid you hit rush hour traffic in either city. Or, I can hop on an 9 AM train and be there having lunch the same day.

Lmao at trying to find a reason NOT to like efficient rail systems.
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  #82  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:30 PM
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Back in my 20s, I took a solo trip on the empire builder from chicago out to the PNW for shits and giggles.

On the first night of the journey, me a group of fellow train degenerates literally drank that bar car out of alcohol.

There was no booze left on the train until they were able to resupply the bar car in fargo the following morning.
no wonder Amtrak long distance trains are losing so much money! They can't even fully profit off the degenerates!
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  #83  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:31 PM
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I don't understand, do you think Europeans are unable to drive? There are expressways all over the continent. I could drive from Milan to Rome
Have you SEEN what passes for driving in Italy? And even that is much better than Romania... I would never dare to drive there.
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  #84  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:33 PM
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Yall are forgetting families (which doesn't surprise me on this forum). A family of 4 would save TONS by driving vs. taking the train.
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  #85  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
Out of curiosity, I looked up the numbers.

83% of Americans drive "most days", 64% daily, but only 34% "enjoy" driving.
I don't enjoy driving in town for work type things. However, I LOVE driving far distances.
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  #86  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:41 PM
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Yall are forgetting families (which doesn't surprise me on this forum). A family of 4 would save TONS by driving vs. taking the train.
That depends on the fares... kids are often discounted in many places (no idea about Amtrak). Driving with kids is also something that is often said to be not particularly enjoyable.
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  #87  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
That depends on the fares... kids are often discounted in many places (no idea about Amtrak). Driving with kids is also something that is often said to be not particularly enjoyable.
True, but kids in public is a worse nightmare for families.
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  #88  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:50 PM
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True, but kids in public is a worse nightmare for families.
Here's what they do in Germany:
https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/...children.shtml
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  #89  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 8:55 PM
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The US is perfect for passenger rail, we have lots of huge cities that are far enough yet close enough to each other for it. But we refuse to update where it's painfully obvious we need to.

I don't see why built environment of specific cities matter. The Sunbelt doesn't have any less of a need for travel between cities than the East Coast, and air travel clearly does not meet all our needs. We have things like ride sharing now so personal cars aren't even necessary for tourists to get around anymore if there isn't public transit. That's usually what people do anyway even if they drive to cities and the situation isn't any different for air travel.

There is huge economic potential that is locked out from us just because we choose to stay in the dark ages on infrastructure.
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  #90  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 9:15 PM
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Nice.

I've experienced how kids act in Japan, we ain't Japan. Our kids are horrible overall and parenting is lacking.
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  #91  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 9:16 PM
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Nice.

I've experienced how kids act in Japan, we ain't Japan. Our kids are horrible overall and parenting is lacking.
I think the childcare on weekends is brilliant, and crazy that it's free.
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  #92  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 9:55 PM
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Have you SEEN what passes for driving in Italy? And even that is much better than Romania... I would never dare to drive there.
In the south driving in Italy is more chaotic, in the more industrious parts of the country it’s more pleasant to drive than anywhere I’ve been in the US (god, I love roundabouts and drivers that know how to use them). And the expressways there are pretty much identical to the expressways here, except that people are much less aggressive merging on, which can feel pretty silly and dangerous from an American perspective.
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  #93  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
In the south driving in Italy is more chaotic, in the more industrious parts of the country it’s more pleasant to drive than anywhere I’ve been in the US (god, I love roundabouts and drivers that know how to use them). And the expressways there are pretty much identical to the expressways here, except that people are much less aggressive merging on, which can feel pretty silly and dangerous from an American perspective.
fair enough! most of my impressions are probably from Rome/Naples...
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  #94  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:03 PM
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You're assuming travel habits are fixed and can't change. If there is a faster/more convenient service that travelers are aware of, they will likely opt to switch modes. If a train line to Cincinnati was faster than driving or more convenient than flying, it's not unreasonable that there would be ridership growth.
Travel habits are fixed and won’t change.

We aren’t Europe. We never will be.

We’re creating an electric car charging network for our future electric cars, for Gods sakes.

Suburban homes are selling like hot cakes and people aren’t going downtown to work.

Being able to take a train to Cincinnati’s downtown is utterly worthless if my final destination requires a car anyhow.

This is a pipe dream.
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  #95  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:06 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
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Originally Posted by Randomguy34 View Post
You're assuming travel habits are fixed and can't change. If there is a faster/more convenient service that travelers are aware of, they will likely opt to switch modes. If a train line to Cincinnati was faster than driving or more convenient than flying, it's not unreasonable that there would be ridership growth.
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Good transit, including intercity rail, is one of those things that attracts customers and people like if and ONLY if it works. Most US transit services are unreliable, the routes are inadequate and the whole scheme is inconvenient so of course people disdain it all.

But it doesn't have to be the way it is. Are people in places like Europe and the more advanced countries of Asia really that different? In Europe, trains are often the most convenient way to get from one major city to another and they are heavily used. That was true even before high speed service became as common as it is now. It used to be true because the routes were complete and the trains, however slow, kept to the published schedules pretty rigorously, something AMTRAK has never done.

This is a chicken/egg thing. Should we require heavy usage before bothering to create good service? If we keep trying that it'll never work. It's time to improve the service and watch the users come as I believe they will.
You’re not telling me anything I don’t know.

I’m a huge advocate of transit, TOD, density, walkable design, and commuter rail for cities that warrant it.

But this idea of some grand intercity high speed rail network is garbage. It’s impractical and has no hope of happening in America, nor should it.

I can see a few corridors, like Bos-Wash, or Hiawatha, or maybe one or two others being justified, but that’s it.

Here is a litmus test of whether something makes financial sense: would a private operator be willing to run it? If yes, then go for it. If no, then.....
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  #96  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
You’re not telling me anything I don’t know.

I’m a huge advocate of transit, TOD, density, walkable design, and commuter rail for cities that warrant it.

But this idea of some grand intercity high speed rail network is garbage. It’s impractical and has no hope of happening in America, nor should it.

I can see a few corridors, like Bos-Wash, or Hiawatha, or maybe one or two others being justified, but that’s it.

Here is a litmus test of whether something makes financial sense: would a private operator be willing to run it? If yes, then go for it. If no, then.....
sounds like we should destroy our interstates unless we can find a private operator to run them.
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  #97  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
I've never heard of the Silver Service. That sounds delightful! I would do it for 1 night because it sounds fun. Treat it not as a ticket, but as a hotel expense. You could get almost anywhere overnight east of the Mississippi. How much did that ticket cost?
The NY to south Florida distance being much farther than LA to SF, which in the old days was strictly overnight (about 7:30 PM to 7 AM), the train (Silver Meteor) isn't strictly overnight but it works--you still sleep (and eat: dinner, breakfast, possibly lunch) through most of the trip, especially to northern or central FL. Board Penn Station 3:15 PM, arrives Jacksonville around 9AM, Orlando at 12:49 PM, but you won't get to Miami until the next evening.



https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/p...ule-101920.pdf

Last edited by Pedestrian; Apr 1, 2021 at 10:23 PM.
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  #98  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:43 PM
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Sample flight itinerary:
From my place in the Inner Richmond to SFO is 1 hr 15 min by public transit (Muni bus + BART). With TSA PreCheck I can probably get there comfortably, about 45 min before departure. I like to get to the gate 10-15 min before boarding. So 2 hours to get to the airport. SFO to LAX is about a 1 hr 30 min flight. From LAX to the Intercontinental at Wilshire Grand it's another 1 hr 15 min. So total travel time would be about 5 hours.

Sample HSR itinerary:
Inner Richmond to Salesforce Transit Center is 37 min by Muni bus. Check in for HSR is short (at least in my experience in other countries), so I can get there 15 min before departure. STC to LA's Union Station is projected to take 2 hr 40 min. From Union Station to the Intercontinental is 8 min by LA Metro's Red or Purple Line. Total travel time would be about 3 hr 40 min.

So 1 hr 20 min saved, plus a quieter, more comfortable ride.
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  #99  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:56 PM
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Inner Richmond to Salesforce Transit Center is 37 min by Muni bus.
Jeez. Budget for an Uber ( )

The success or failure of LA-SF HSR is going to depend on whether the schedule allows one to go down to LA (or up to SF) in the morning with plenty of time for a day of meetings, dining, shopping or whatever you want to do and then return and sleep in your own bed without getting up too early or getting to bed too late.

Ideally, it might even allow a late afternoon trip to LA to see a show or sporting event and then a return that isn't "red eye" stuff.

If it can do those things from downtown SF to downtown LA, it should be a raging success.
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  #100  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Back in my 20s, I took a solo trip on the empire builder from chicago out to the PNW for shits and giggles.

On the first night of the journey, me a group of fellow train degenerates literally drank the bar car out of alcohol.

There was no booze left on the train until they were able to resupply the bar car in fargo the following morning.


I gotta take a long train trip. This is inspiring me.
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