Is Arizona the new Texas?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by fonzi

Early native civilizations also had to abandon the area when sudden, and entirely natural, changes in climate occurred.

An actual dry river bed filled with water from another river far away, is only positive in an engineering sense, and should be concerning otherwise. Those "wetlands" are just way to say puddles, in the same riverbed. Also, you are conveniently forgetting all the actual food production farther down the Gila watershed...and funny how you dismiss alfalfa as seemingly unimportant, when it's feeds the dairy cattle....for local products!! Semi conductor manufacturing, and cities need a surplus of food to exist, in case you forgot.

Early native populations also didnt have technology like we have.

We arent stone age farmers and herdsmen, hotter summers and wetter winters for a few decades are not going to destroy our way of life

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by fonzi

You are glossing over a few things to paint a rosy scenario. While Phoenix may not use groundwater, Mesa does primarily use groundwater. As ground water resources dwindle in places like Yavapai County, you might see a big change in how water rights are negotiated. It is nearly a quarter million people and growing fast, and asking them to move to the valley isn't a viable option.

Also, as I've stated before on this thread, how can you just decide to stop agriculture usage, especially when it yields products needed by places like Phx and Tucson, and even the country? If both cities and farms cannot exist simultaneously, you have a much bigger issue at hand.

Gaolposts moved

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

^^Oh right, so nothing can ever go wrong in Arizona. Good to know, in that case, absolutely Arizona is the new Texas. Hopefully every square inch of the state is developed so the general population can live under the utopian Arizona sun. Almost like New York, that can never experience a blackout due to its perfect system. Oh, wait...

Realistically not that much can go wrong in Arizona from a natural disaster standpoint.

We just had our hottest driest summer ever unfortunately and while it did kill some plants it hardly risked the lives or continued continuity of the people living in the state.

Pre modern technology such an event like this summer would have quite literally caused people to abandon because they had no way to deal with extreme drought, not so in modern times.

[Camelback]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Gaolposts moved

I looked up the Mesa statistics. I didn't respond to his post, but fonzi's claim that Mesa has high ground water usage is not correct.

Mesa water is divided into 3 zones. The Central Zone (1 of the 3) the ground water usage is 7%. The Eastern Zone is 4% and the other zone is 0%.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I never knew every City in the country was perfectly self sufficient with agriculture to provide for their current and future growth. I mean, we might as well shut down the train lines and highways, we don't and can't rely on transportation and logistics.

The self sufficient of food in a system like the USA with open access to the Greater Midwest and Central California Valley is a moot point. There is no city on earth that is self sufficient, they cant be if they want to be more than a town.

They never have been not even thousands of years ago.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Realistically not that much can go wrong in Arizona from a natural disaster standpoint.

We just had our hottest driest summer ever unfortunately and while it did kill some plants it hardly risked the lives or continued continuity of the people living in the state.

Pre modern technology such an event like this summer would have quite literally caused people to abandon because they had no way to deal with extreme drought, not so in modern times.

And it's not like hot dry periods are a surprise to us in modern times. Will they be more frequent, maybe, but planning, strategies, and technology will also improve.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by The North One

Agreed that Arizona is completely unsustainable as a population center. This applies to the entire southwest really, it will collapse eventually.

Not if we send all the people retired from Michigan home.

[James Bond Agent 007]

Originally Posted by Obadno

How is it more insane than on Landfill? In Prairie or forest or on priceless water front or in swamps?

Why is the desert some special biome where its "insane" to have development??? I never understood this. Humanities first cities exist in the exact climate as Phoenix, a shallow arid river valley with seasonal flood and rainy periods.

People have been farming in the Phoenix area for literally thousands of years.

Those cities had big rivers flowing right through them.

I would love to see how big Phoenix would be without air conditioning and without water piped in from a hundred miles away. In ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia they did not have air conditioning and water piped in from a hundred miles away.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Not if we send all the people retired from Michigan home.

lol We wouldn't accept them back, sorry. Their state citizenship was revoked. They'll just have to make angry facebook comments while it falls apart and blame everything on socialism.

[IMBY]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

This is kind of my point. If you'd have to build desalinization plants on the Pacific Ocean and pump it all the way to Arizona, goes to show what a horrible place AZ is to house millions of people.

Build desal plants on the Pacific, which lessens Southern CA's need for the CO river water, which can be diverted to AZ. No pumping water from the Pacific to AZ!

There's a saying: water will always arise to $$$!

AZ gets a 2.8 million sq acre feet of water from the Colorado River, but 1 million of that goes to the Native American Indians, who use it for agriculture.

The best location for a de-sal palnt or 2 in Southern CA, to avoid the Nimby's, is to build it off Camp Pendleton! Federal land! To my knowledge there's only one de-sal plant in SOCAL, near Cardiff, which only supplies 7% of San Diego's water.

So what's the price tag, Native Americans, if we buy your water?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Those cities had big rivers flowing right through them.

I would love to see how big Phoenix would be without air conditioning and without water piped in from a hundred miles away. In ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia they did not have air conditioning and water piped in from a hundred miles away.

Thank you for displaying your blithering ignorance.

Phoenix rests in a flat valley at the confluence of several rivers and creeks, this has resulted in a massive aquifer and agriculture in this area for quite literally thousands of years.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by The North One

lol We wouldn't accept them back, sorry. Their state citizenship was revoked. They'll just have to make angry facebook comments while it falls apart and blame everything on socialism.

Imagine having this ridiculously smug and vindictively childish attitude.

Hard to believe why middle and working class people are turned off by haughty left wing urbanites. Truly a mystery of the ages.

[fonzi]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Early native populations also didnt have technology like we have.

We arent stone age farmers and herdsmen, hotter summers and wetter winters for a few decades are not going to destroy our way of life

Water is water, and whether you have enough, or not, is the issue. Those cultures irrigated, so do we. Thing is, they had proportionally, a much, much lower population to support, and they still had to leave. Also, Saguaro, Apache, Canyon, Roosevelt, Lake Pleasant, Bartlett, and Horseshoe, are all quite noticeable in level fluctuations and if you think that's going to save the valley when ground water and the CO River can't supply enough? No way.

[fonzi]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Thank you for displaying your blithering ignorance.

Phoenix rests in a flat valley at the confluence of several rivers and creeks, this has resulted in a massive aquifer and agriculture in this area for quite literally thousands of years.

You use that argument, as an actual attempt at a rebuttal???? The Salt and Gila are diverted and sopped up for flushing toilets and taking showers, the Verde is fast dwindling, and that aquifer has already been noted as fast dwindling by the AZ Republic article posted earlier in this thread.

I won't even bother with the "agriculture in this area for quite literally thousands of years" bit because that is highly dependent on the climate at the time.

You accuse me of moving goalposts, but you're much more guilty of grasping at straws.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by fonzi

You use that argument, as an actual attempt at a rebuttal???? The Salt and Gila are diverted and sopped up for flushing toilets and taking showers, the Verde is fast dwindling, and that aquifer has already been noted as fast dwindling by the AZ Republic article posted earlier in this thread.

I won't even bother with the "agriculture in this area for quite literally thousands of years" bit because that is highly dependent on the climate at the time.

You accuse me of moving goalposts, but you're much more guilty of grasping at straws.

"No those rivers dont count, I posted the scholarly work of the AZ REPUBLIC!!!"

Yes the Salt and the Gila and the Agua Fria have many Reservoirs built on their run which is why the state can now have millions instead of 300 thousand. Thats called water management.

Thats how Southern California exists despite having almost no running rivers at all. You dont know what you are talking about.

[fonzi]

Originally Posted by Obadno

"No those rivers dont count, I posted the scholarly work of the AZ REPUBLIC!!!"

Yes the Salt and the Gila and the Agua Fria have many Reservoirs built on their run which is why the state can now have millions instead of 300 thousand. Thats called water management.

Thats how Southern California exists despite having almost no running rivers at all. You dont know what you are talking about.

First, the Republic article was citing groundwater levels, not river flows. Second, So Cal literally commandeers water from hundreds of miles away to exist, and uses more electricity than any other user in CA to pump it, from running rivers. That's extreme "water management" and I guess it makes Phoenix look rather pragmatic by comparison. Watching "Chinatown" makes me think LA should not have past Philly in population in 1950. Using much the same logic, Phoenix should still be around 500k and no more.

Here's a 20 some year history of ground water levels in AZ. Notice it's mostly in the negative. Now, add another couple million people, and the same precipitation levels, to reflect today's AZ.

https://new.azwater.gov/sites/defaul...CR_Final_0.pdf



If you glean from the decent levels in the Phx metro, that it's all good, that would be foolhardy. That's just reclaimed water being fed back, from the over extracted wells on the periphery.

[Buckeye Native 001]

The issue here is whether Arizona's current growth trajectories, or at the very least, how Metro Phoenix continues to grow, sustainable? I don't think even the biggest homers want NYC-level density in Central Phoenix, but on the other hand, should places like Sun Lakes, Queen Creek and San Tan Valley, Buckeye and Tonopah continue to sprawl endlessly?

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Imagine having this ridiculously smug and vindictively childish attitude.

Hard to believe why middle and working class people are turned off by haughty left wing urbanites. Truly a mystery of the ages.

Lmfao it's a joke dude. Thought that was pretty obvious with state citizenship part.

Although the last part is true though. I've read some pretty heinous shit on social media from old Margaret and Albert of Scottsdale Arizona. Can't say I'm crying about them not voting here anymore.

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Not if we send all the people retired from Michigan home.

Were you born in Arizona?

[Camelback]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

The issue here is whether Arizona's current growth trajectories, or at the very least, how Metro Phoenix continues to grow, sustainable? I don't think even the biggest homers want NYC-level density in Central Phoenix, but on the other hand, should places like Sun Lakes, Queen Creek and San Tan Valley, Buckeye and Tonopah continue to sprawl endlessly?

Runaway growth in Pinal County (current population of 500,000) from Gold Canyon to Coolidge/Florence is concerning. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pi...4d-111.2845025

The town of Maricopa in Pinal County was projected to be as large as Mesa. I think that has been cut back, however it has the land and the proven water supply for rapid growth. It has grown from 1,000 in the year 2000 to 55,000 today.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ma...4d-112.0476423

Buckeye (fastest growing city in the US 2017/2018) has a planning area larger than the city of Phoenix wrapping around the White Tank mountains, going up the Sun Valley Parkway. Goodyear is another city that has a huge planning area that reaches down the westside of the Estrellas mountains.
Buckeye: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bu...4d-112.5837766
Goodyear: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Go...4d-112.3576567

The new Intel plant would probably be along the Price Corridor area, whether it falls within the city of Chandler, or the Gila River Reservation adjacent to Chandler. 12,000 people work for Intel in Chandler right now. The Price Corridor is home to at least 30,000 jobs, with open zoned land still available. Wells Fargo, Northrup Grumman, Pay Pal, Intel, Microchip, Bank of America, NXP Semiconductors (the old Motorola plant), Voya, Iridium, GM Financial
Price Corridor:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.2654.../data=!3m1!1e3