AUSTIN | Waterline (98 Red River) | 1,022 Feet | 73 Floors | U/C

[JACKinBeantown]

Well said, austlar1. (Where's the "like" button?)

[Syndic]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Austin did not just become an appealing place where people wanted to live in the late 1990s. Generation after generation of UT students have been falling in love with this place since before I was born (1946). Back in the mid 1960s a very common refrain was something along the lines of "I would love to live here or stay here, but there is no way to earn a living." In short, Austin was long on charm and short on economic opportunities unless you were an academic or wanted to be an underpaid (at the time certainly) state bureaucrat. Austin started to evolve economically in the 1970s, and it was suddenly a place filled with opportunity. It was also from the 1960s on perceived as a great place to drop out and do your thing. The music scene slowly evolved, but it got started back in the late 60s or early 70s during the era of the Armadillo World Headquarters. The movie "Slackers" (filmed 1989 and released 1991) captured a bit of that alternative Austin, and it kind of tipped off the rest of the world to something that Texans knew long ago. Austin was weird long before the slogan got popularized. There is a great novel called "The Gay Place" by Billy Lee Brammer that is set in Austin and was written in the late 1950s or early 1960s. It really describes a lot of what was going on here at that time. It is a great novel, a political novel supposedly, but really a book about a place that is recognizably Austin. No, it is not about gay life. The word gay meant something different to most folks at the time the book was written.

Certainly that was one wave of increased popularity. That's when my parents came here and stayed here, after college. Or, in my mom's case, after she dropped out and did her thing. (She ended up with a good-paying job anyway.) But I'm talking about the current wave of popularity, which vastly surpasses that of my parents' generation. This city never could have/would have been given the nickname "Live Music Capital of the World" without my parents' generation and Armadillo World Headquarters, etc. When Millennials (aka the Echo Boomers, i.e. the children of the Baby Boomers) came of age and started exploring this country they found a kindred spirit in Austin and really for the first time large numbers of people started coming/settling here who had no connection to UT or the capitol. That element existed in the previous wave but not to this extent. Most people who come here now have no connection to UT or the capitol. I think that's a pretty good way to categorize the immigration waves. And, also, of course, there's the undocumented immigrant factor these days, as well.

Point is, until the late 90's, like most cities in America, Austin's downtown was a no-man's land full of blight that only a mother (i.e. locals) could love, so to speak. Then, Frost Bank Tower came along, and the Silicon Labs buildings, so slowly but surely the city started looking more respectable and living up to the hype.

[austlar1]

I guess my point is or was that Austin is no Omaha. It never was and never will be, thank goodness.. Also, some folks found the old downtown Austin to be rather charming and easy to use. Parking was a snap, and going out at night was not a huge or particularly expensive project. I guess I prefer the new downtown, but it really isn't a place where I spend much time. I gaze upon it while passing through for the most part, but my life takes me to neighborhoods on the edge of downtown rather than to this new highrise downtown. That is probably true for most Austin residents.

[Jdawgboy]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I guess my point is or was that Austin is no Omaha. It never was and never will be, thank goodness.. Also, some folks found the old downtown Austin to be rather charming and easy to use. Parking was a snap, and going out at night was not a huge or particularly expensive project. I guess I prefer the new downtown, but it really isn't a place where I spend much time. I gaze upon it while passing through for the most part, but my life takes me to neighborhoods on the edge of downtown rather than to this new highrise downtown. That is probably true for most Austin residents.

I disagree about Downtown not being used by most Austin residents. Downtown is the heart of this city. It is the gathering place for residents to do everything from going to music shows to parades, to street festivals. It accounts for 80% of all the city's revenue and that's saying something. All of my friends go DT regularly, not only are they local Austin residents, (many born and raised like me), but there are quite a few that come in from the suburbs. On any given weekend night there are at least 60,000 people in DT and frequently over 100,000. Parking is not an issue unless you expect to have free parking which fact is for a city the size of Austin is just not practicle but that doesn't mean it costs an arm and a leg. You can park at a meter for a couple of dollars. Park a couple of hours before the meters stop, then you can park for the night. There are still several parking garages that only cost 5 dollars to park, you just need to know where they are. One is the Ashton garage.


You know what I just don't get. Many Austinites take pride in their progressive values but how is not accepting or denying change in a rapidly growing city progressive? To be progressive means to be open and embracing of change, not to shun it. I've said this before and I'll say it again. This does trail alittle off topic so forgive me but its people like Laura Morrison, Kathie Tovo, the Austin Neighborhood Council and neighborhood activists that have actually been much of the cause of the mess we are in with affordability issues yet they continue to support agendas that limit housing options, which in turn makes living here less affordable which then adds to the problem of property values rising. That is not Progressive at all.

[austlar1]

Since this is supposed to be a thread about the Waller Place project, just let me say that I love this project and hope it gets built.

Now that I got that out of the way, let me respond to Jdawgboy's comments:

Jdawgboy, I am guessing you are fairly young (under 40) and presumably single. Of course, you and your friends are going to spend a lot of time downtown. I used to spend more time downtown too, and this was before all of the recent development down there. That older version of downtown may have lacked a lot of tall buildings and had too many parking lots, but it was still a place where you could have a lot of fun. Now that I am older, I find that I have fewer and fewer reasons to go there. Most of my friends are over 40. Very few of them go downtown on a regular basis even for special events or festivals. Most of them used to go to these things, but their priorities have changed as they got older. Most of the locals that I know would probably choose to dine or go to a movie outside of downtown because there are lots of good local choices available that don't require dealing with expensive and elusive parking and large crowds. To be honest, a few of them do still venture downtown to hear a favorite band or go to the theater, but there is a reason why streets like So.First St, So. Congress, So. Lamar, E. 6th St., North Loop, Burnet Road, etc. are full of good local dining options and, also, increasingly with interesting local shopping options. It is not like you have to choose between downtown and Applebee's here in Austin. There is more to Austin, lots more, than that which is available downtown.

You mention the 60,000 to 100,000 night-time/weekend population figures for downtown. Let's stick with the more typical regular weekend 60,000 figure. I am guessing that half of that number is comprised of out of town visitors staying at the nearly 10,000 hotel rooms located downtown and nearby plus probably another 15,000 to 20,000 or so UT students. The remainder are probably local young folks out for an evening on the town. That is a large number and it is a good thing that downtown attracts this demographic. I don't have a problem with that. I am just taking exception to your assertion that MOST Austin residents regularly use downtown Austin. That is just simply not true. Downtown Austin is used by the folks who work there, by the new highrise dwellers who can afford to live there, by the area's large singles population who like to party there, and by an endless stream of visitors who stay in hotels and, blessedly, spend lots of money there.

Increasingly it seems to me that MOST Austin residents try to avoid going downtown. Like me, they gaze in amazement at the new skyline as they slug past the place on crowded freeways or surface streets. They view it as being expensive, crowded, and touristy. I constantly hear friends (young and old) complain about the traffic jams, the endless street closures, the constant "special events" both downtown and in the nearby parks. Believe it or not, there are some Austin residents that don't like the fact that Zilker Park is basically rendered useless for several weeks out of the year by the huge venues that set up shop there and trash the place or that streets in and around downtown seemed to be closed to traffic almost every weekend.

I know that change is inevitable. I have always loved big cities. I like tall buildings and urban density. I have lived in several of the biggest and most interesting cities in this country. None of that should prevent me from sometimes waxing nostalgic about a simpler time and place. I was initially attracted to Austin by the fact that it seemed to have the potential to grow into a really vibrant big city while at the same time it was charming, funky, and laid back. The changes have been happening at a fast and furious pace lately. One day, Jdawgboy, you too might reach a point in life where you fondly recall the good old days. Cut me some slack in the meantime, if you don't mind.

PS- I have no use for Tovo or her ilk. She is an idiot who seems thinks she is starring in a Netflix series about a ravishing young politically correct city councilwoman. This impression is gleaned from spending too much time at city council meetings.

[ahealy]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Since this is supposed to be a thread about the Waller Place project, just let me say that I love this project and hope it gets built.

Now that I got that out of the way, let me respond to Jdawgboy's comments:

Jdawgboy, I am guessing you are fairly young (under 40) and presumably single. Of course, you and your friends are going to spend a lot of time downtown. I used to spend more time downtown too, and this was before all of the recent development down there. That older version of downtown may have lacked a lot of tall buildings and had too many parking lots, but it was still a place where you could have a lot of fun. Now that I am older, I find that I have fewer and fewer reasons to go there. Most of my friends are over 40. Very few of them go downtown on a regular basis even for special events or festivals. Most of them used to go to these things, but their priorities have changed as they got older. Most of the locals that I know would probably choose to dine or go to a movie outside of downtown because there are lots of good local choices available that don't require dealing with expensive and elusive parking and large crowds. To be honest, a few of them do still venture downtown to hear a favorite band or go to the theater, but there is a reason why streets like So.First St, So. Congress, So. Lamar, E. 6th St., North Loop, Burnet Road, etc. are full of good local dining options and, also, increasingly with interesting local shopping options. It is not like you have to choose between downtown and Applebee's here in Austin. There is more to Austin, lots more, than that which is available downtown.

You mention the 60,000 to 100,000 night-time/weekend population figures for downtown. Let's stick with the more typical regular weekend 60,000 figure. I am guessing that half of that number is comprised of out of town visitors staying at the nearly 10,000 hotel rooms located downtown and nearby plus probably another 15,000 to 20,000 or so UT students. The remainder are probably local young folks out for an evening on the town. That is a large number and it is a good thing that downtown attracts this demographic. I don't have a problem with that. I am just taking exception to your assertion that MOST Austin residents regularly use downtown Austin. That is just simply not true. Downtown Austin is used by the folks who work there, by the new highrise dwellers who can afford to live there, by the area's large singles population who like to party there, and by an endless stream of visitors who stay in hotels and, blessedly, spend lots of money there.

Increasingly it seems to me that MOST Austin residents try to avoid going downtown. Like me, they gaze in amazement at the new skyline as they slug past the place on crowded freeways or surface streets. They view it as being expensive, crowded, and touristy. I constantly hear friends (young and old) complain about the traffic jams, the endless street closures, the constant "special events" both downtown and in the nearby parks. Believe it or not, there are some Austin residents that don't like the fact that Zilker Park is basically rendered useless for several weeks out of the year by the huge venues that set up shop there and trash the place or that streets in and around downtown seemed to be closed to traffic almost every weekend.

I know that change is inevitable. I have always loved big cities. I like tall buildings and urban density. I have lived in several of the biggest and most interesting cities in this country. None of that should prevent me from sometimes waxing nostalgic about a simpler time and place. I was initially attracted to Austin by the fact that it seemed to have the potential to grow into a really vibrant big city while at the same time it was charming, funky, and laid back. The changes have been happening at a fast and furious pace lately. One day, Jdawgboy, you too might reach a point in life where you fondly recall the good old days. Cut me some slack in the meantime, if you don't mind.

PS- I have no use for Tovo or her ilk. She is an idiot who seems thinks she is starring in a Netflix series about a ravishing young politically correct city councilwoman. This impression is gleaned from spending too much time at city council meetings.

We're in the same boat. I've lived downtown for almost a decade and am not exactly thrilled by the way it's going. I envisioned a Portland-like grown up ATX, with more bike friendliness and a bigger concern for mass transit options... but I just see hyped out "BIG TEXAS CITY WITH MONEY" and tacky range rovers more than anything. So much in the moment thinking and not enough long-term planning here. I believe that kind of thinking will cripple this town.
ANYWHOOOOO....
I think Waller Place will be a nice addition, even tho I wasn't crazy about the design....I just hope it promotes less auto driven living and a good mixed-use setting for eastern DT.

[lzppjb]

Most of the people I know spend no time downtown.

[Jdawgboy]

Well it depends on the person and the people they know. Yes I am single and under 40 but that doesn't make DT a singles only destination. Lots of couples, married or otherwise go DT and I see plenty of people over 40 as well.

[midtownstarbucky]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Well it depends on the person and the people they know. Yes I am single and under 40 but that doesn't make DT a singles only destination. Lots of couples, married or otherwise go DT and I see plenty of people over 40 as well.

LOL I am 45 and I go out...around once a year.

[Tech House]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Downtown is the heart of this city. It is the gathering place for residents to do everything from going to music shows to parades, to street festivals. It accounts for 80% of all the city's revenue and that's saying something.

Holy moly, that't astonishing! What are the boundaries of downtown for purposes of determining that stat? Wow, I would have guessed it generated less than half that! Austin is a sprawling, low-density city by population measures, and I had assumed that economic activity was similarly distributed.

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

You know what I just don't get. Many Austinites take pride in their progressive values but how is not accepting or denying change in a rapidly growing city progressive? To be progressive means to be open and embracing of change, not to shun it.

Amen to that. It makes sense to apply liberal/progressive principles to the process of change so as to direct it in a way that doesn't undermine liberal values, but the kind of reactionary "all change is bad" attitude that is apparent throughout humanity around the world doesn't seem very "liberal" and certainly can't be considered "progressive."

My least favorite form of obstructionism is the human instinct to honor the past through preservation in perpetuity. It might seem silly to think about this, but just imagine cemeteries, burial grounds, and other memorials being preserved forever. How many millennia would it take before we'd all be forced to live on boats or under water because every square inch of land is occupied by some form of tribute to the dead? And yet this is how we behave, and we do it without questioning! Add to this all the historical monuments and landmarks, and all the structures that cannot be touched out of respect for history, and it becomes obviously absurd. Yes, we want to preserve as much of history as is significant, worthwhile, and practical, but all too often the instinct to honor the past is used as a justification for blocking progress that is unwanted by a certain vocal faction.

I might get my ass kicked for suggesting this example, but I was personally stunned by arguments that the Lamar bridge over Town Lake is "historical" and therefore shouldn't be replaced or changed. WT actual F. Call me a philistine, but to me that is a very unremarkable and badly-designed bridge which fails every test of functionality and safety for the various modes of transportation that utilize it. And if that doesn't make you want to kick my ass, then wait until you hear my opinion about those stupid ugly moon towers...

--- edit: oops, I just realized this is the Waller Park Place thread, so if this comment is too far off topic then good riddance to it.

[lzppjb]

I'm likely the most conservative person on this subforum, but even I support vertical development and a dense core. I can see the practicality in those things.

But I also love history. I like the Lamar Bridge and the Moon Towers. I think a nice balance can be achieved between new and old.

[MichaelB]

..... and I will be amongst the most "liberal"... what ever that may mean.
But I agree a balance can be found between "old" and "new".

depth is depth. It's a distaction from the thread, but it's so hard to let comments like above ( lamar bridge and Moon towers) go unansewred.
.Personally I am a "modernist/minimalist". But I love History. History is not just about facts.... it's about perspective and depth.
The visual reminders of human instict over time are a constant perspective lesson.
The texture it adds to our life if so very important to an ever evolving landscape.
I often only appreciate a modern building when it is next to another era.
To live in a world that is just my aesthetic would be to live a very shallow existance.
No thank you.

I can understand the debate on the Lamar bridge. It is not much from the road suface and it's function is being tested.
But from the river it is beautiful.... and graceful.... probably beyond what modern investment would replace. Get in a conoe and paddle under it.

But the moon towers? Wow. Just Wow. I truly don't understand the lack of appreictaion. Sorry.
Forgive... I don't want this to be judmental ...just what the forum needs.... but I do encourage more people to look beyond their own experience and aesthetics and see what other points of view and perspective on history might teach us.
It just might help some other social issues as well
Just sayin.

[Austin1971]

Any news on the buildings?

[lzppjb]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

..... and I will be amongst the most "liberal"... what ever that may mean.
But I agree a balance can be found between "old" and "new".

depth is depth. It's a distaction from the thread, but it's so hard to let comments like above ( lamar bridge and Moon towers) go unansewred.
.Personally I am a "modernist/minimalist". But I love History. History is not just about facts.... it's about perspective and depth.
The visual reminders of human instict over time are a constant perspective lesson.
The texture it adds to our life if so very important to an ever evolving landscape.
I often only appreciate a modern building when it is next to another era.
To live in a world that is just my aesthetic would be to live a very shallow existance.
No thank you.

I can understand the debate on the Lamar bridge. It is not much from the road suface and it's function is being tested.
But from the river it is beautiful.... and graceful.... probably beyond what modern investment would replace. Get in a conoe and paddle under it.

But the moon towers? Wow. Just Wow. I truly don't understand the lack of appreictaion. Sorry.
Forgive... I don't want this to be judmental ...just what the forum needs.... but I do encourage more people to look beyond their own experience and aesthetics and see what other points of view and perspective on history might teach us.
It just might help some other social issues as well
Just sayin.

I agree with all of that. The Moon Towers have real history. They were erected to allay the fears of the locals after the killings of the Servant Girl Annhilator, one of the earliest documented serial killers in America. I think it's really cool to have a piece of that time leftover.

[Tech House]

Originally Posted by MichaelB

To live in a world that is just my aesthetic would be to live a very shallow existance.

I loved your whole post but wanted to single out that one line because it's so true, and it summarizes a great deal of the content of aesthetic debate. I'm sure I find some things beautiful and worthy of preservation that would be tossers to most other people. I do accept that others see value in the moon towers. It's not an important issue to me. I readily admit that I don't get it. The story behind it, and all the history, doesn't make up for what I see as a costly artifact that adds to light pollution, consumes energy needlessly, and lacks aesthetic benefit to most people who see them without knowing what they represent. When I think of some of the fantastic public art I've seen in other cities and compare that to the dearth of that in Austin, I wish that the money had gone to something like making the floating tree permanent. Maybe most of you didn't like that tree (by the Lamar bridge) but for me it was by far the coolest and most beautiful public display that I've seen in 24 years here, with the possible exception of the 37th Street Christmas lights at their zenith in the 1990s.

An on-topic post! As I was driving west on Cesar Chavez just after sunset last night, the silhouette of the skyline grew before me until it became a thing of great beauty. And I noted the gap between downtown and Rainey Street with a sense of hope and delight, knowing that this view will become so much more dramatic, especially if Waller is developed anything like it has been presented to us so far. I love all the different views of the skyline, it's completely different depending on your vantage point. And I guess that applies, in principle, to the way we all see different pieces of history and architecture from personal vantage points. Between all of us, we see a bigger picture which is more complete and holistic, and so we can make collective decisions that will usually work out well even though it's impossible to please everyone all the time.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Austin1971

Any news on the buildings?

No. Hence the drift off topic.

[The ATX]

We should be getting some update on this project soon. December 20th is the deadline for the site plan updates. I suspect that we'll see another deadline extension which would be business as usual for big projects.


From DAB: http://downtownaustinblog.org/wp-con...r_c_ground.png

[Tech House]

Is the windowless 1960s-modern segment above the street level for parking? If so then I understand why it's designed so oddly. If not, then somebody's gotta a lotta 'splainin' to do.

Lower Waller Creek is THE next big thing for this city. I think it will create an entirely new feel for central Austin, once the creek project and major buildings are complete. I'm so pumped for this. The Waller diversion tunnel is one great investment that will pay innumerable dividends.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Tech House

Is the windowless 1960s-modern segment above the street level for parking? If so then I understand why it's designed so oddly. If not, then somebody's gotta a lotta 'splainin' to do.

Lower Waller Creek is THE next big thing for this city. I think it will create an entirely new feel for central Austin, once the creek project and major buildings are complete. I'm so pumped for this. The Waller diversion tunnel is one great investment that will pay innumerable dividends.

It's to hide the parking. But it's only slightly better than looking at the front end of a bunch of stacked cars.

[the Genral]

If the tower portion above the parking garage looks good, I think I'm ok with the garage cover up. It would kind of be like a good looking person with ugly shoes.