Anthony Henday Drive

[Jasper and one o nin]

Province is already planning the alignment of the second ring

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by Jasper and one o nin

Province is already planning the alignment of the second ring

That's umm... disturbing news to say the least.

A note here, you'll really start seeing the effects of the Ring once suburban business parks are sprouting up around it.

[240glt]

^ "start" ?

I can't WAIT for Calgary's NW section to be done. I never drive thru Calgary anymore if I am headed west... and Cochrane via Airdrie is getting hectic as well and has about a dozen poorly timed traffic lights

As for Edmonton, Hopefully the east-west truck traffic on the Yellowhead will decrease, and now we can focus on streamlining Gateway Boulevard/ Calgary Trail now that the intersection @ the Whitemud won't be the major intersection diverting traffic east & west

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^ "start" ?

In terms of sprawl.

I can't WAIT for Calgary's NW section to be done. I never drive thru Calgary anymore if I am headed west... and Cochrane via Airdrie is getting hectic as well.

Might be good for you, but it isn't for the city. Why do we need ring roads to pander to people who aren't from the city, at the expense of the city itself? If people really needed to get around so bad, they could have as easily created another highway way out in the middle of nowhere so that it doesn't affect the city. This is true for Edmonton or Calgary.

As for Edmonton, Hopefully the east-west truck traffic on the Yellowhead will decrease, and now we can focus on streamlining Gateway Boulevard/ Calgary Trail now that the intersection @ the Whitemud won't be the major intersection diverting traffic east & west

I don't think you know what you are getting yourselves into... rarely if ever has a ring road lightened traffic loads. Any decrease in congestion will be very short term.

[Beltliner]

The second page of this INFTRA PDF shows where they want to put the vtoraya kol'tsevaya doroga in Calgary come 2055 or thereabouts. Talk about impoverished imagination--the existing ring road alignment should have been designed from a standing start for a collector-express setup with tolled express lanes throughout.

[IKAN104]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

I don't think you know what you are getting yourselves into... rarely if ever has a ring road lightened traffic loads. Any decrease in congestion will be very short term.

uh... no offence, but ... you're crazy. The congestion would be even worse without the ring road. The only thing that increases congestion is population growth.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by IKAN104

uh... no offence, but ... you're crazy. The congestion would be even worse without the ring road. The only thing that increases congestion is population growth.

I'm absolutely not crazy. It's called induced traffic. By building roads, you increase the number of cars on the road. The added capacity adds short term relief, but it also causes automobile-dependent sprawl which makes up for the drop in only a few years. It is a very well documented phenomenon. It is certainly NOT only population growth that increases congestion.

An abstract so you can do further reading (there are various studies on this, this one is just the first result on Google... you might also try the U.S. Transportation Research Board):

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Traffic congestion tends to maintain equilibrium. Congestion reaches a point at which it constrains further growth in peak-period trips. If road capacity increases, the number of peak-period trips also increases until congestion again limits further traffic growth. The additional travel is called "generated traffic." Generated traffic consists of diverted traffic (trips shifted in time, route and destination), and induced vehicle travel (shifts from other modes, longer trips and new vehicle trips). Research indicates that generated traffic often fills a significant portion of capacity added to congested urban road.

Generated traffic has three implications for transport planning. First, it reduces the congestion reduction benefits of road capacity expansion. Second, it increases many external costs. Third, it provides relatively small user benefits because it consists of vehicle travel that consumers are most willing to forego when their costs increase. It is important to account for these factors in analysis. This paper defines types of generated traffic, discusses generated traffic impacts, recommends ways to incorporate generated traffic into evaluation, and describes alternatives to roadway capacity expansion.

I have no idea why people keep denying this. It's not even abstract like string theory or evolution, there are real numbers that say this is what is happening.

[Coldrsx]

^im with boris on this one

[240glt]

In terms of sprawl.

Both our cities have already mastered sprawl... I don't see the ring road as a catalyst.

Might be good for you, but it isn't for the city. Why do we need ring roads to pander to people who aren't from the city, at the expense of the city itself? If people really needed to get around so bad, they could have as easily created another highway way out in the middle of nowhere so that it doesn't affect the city. This is true for Edmonton or Calgary.

Good for me & the thousands of others who don't want or need to drive throught he middle of the city, just toget back out on the other side. As for the expense... isn't the province kicking in the vast majority of the funding for these projects ? A 4 lane highway from... say Olds to Canmore would be fantastic, but that is just not going to happen.

I don't think you know what you are getting yourselves into... rarely if ever has a ring road lightened traffic loads. Any decrease in congestion will be very short term.

We'll see. The bottleneck isn't at that intersection yet, but when they do the 23rd street interchange & figure out what they're going to do with the massive strip mall down the meridian between Cgy trail and Gateway, the Whitemud interchange will be the next issue. Fewer northbound people turning left on the whitemud would be a very good thing.

I agree that roads just fill up, I like the Vancouver philosophy WRT the #1 and Lougheed (Basically they said we're not going to expand it, so everyone just needs to deal with the traffic and find alternate solutions) The issue there is that most who use those roads are headed to Vancouver, not through it as they are in Cgy & Edm. Forcing everyone to deal with that mess of 16th ave in Cgy, or shortcut through bedroom communities is not the answer.

What do you propose ?

[IKAN104]

o.k. Boris. Now you're starting to convince me. Please stop. I will not turn from my automobile loving ways. And you can't make me!!! I love this ring road. You hear me? I LOVE IT!!! MUWAHAHAHAHAAAAA

[rapid_business]

And the worst part about it, is the argument is used just a heavily from opposing views who dimiss the 'build it and they will come' senerio, to favor a 'they were coming so we need to build it' senario. Chicken and egg, I think not...
Boris does bring up some good points here. Atlanta is the perfect example of this.

[Coldrsx]

^most US cities are...HWYs are needed for transport, but then it makes living further out more viable...and so the cycle continues.

[Beltliner]

Originally Posted by onishenko

And the worst part about it, is the argument is used just a heavily from opposing views who dimiss the 'build it and they will come' senerio, to favor a 'they were coming so we need to build it' senario. Chicken and egg, I think not...
Boris does bring up some good points here. Atlanta is the perfect example of this.

I was thinking Houston, m'self--the 610, plus the Sam Houston Tollway, plus their third ring road on the drawing board. You'd think people would have learnt by now....

[murman]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

My prediction: By 2020 Edmonton (and Calgary) will be looking at a second ring road to deal with the effects of the first ones...

Get up to speed, please.

[Boris2k7]

240: Use existing roadways by limiting access and instituting tolls. You could easily throw a toll on Deerfoot for N-S traffic and divert #1 from 16N to Glenmore Trail. In Edmonton, do the same for the Yellowhead. Additional secondary highways well beyond the city (at the edge of the metropolitan area or just outside) would be preferrable to more costly superfreeways. This could function by diverting the QE2 well south of Leduc for those heading north past Edmonton for instance.

IKAN: Okay, be that way. If you don't want to even bother looking at the facts, that's fine by me.

Oni: Thanks. Houston also comes to mind first of all, but that will be that city's fate for quite a while.

Cold: Yeah, it's a brutal cycle. I'd challenge the idea that highways are necessary for transport (there has been a resurgence of rail south of the border) but I will put that off for further study.

Beltliner: I think that the 3rd Ring is already U/C down there. Beijing has 5 or so, but at least they are putting a huge amount into public transportation as well. Still, not good.

Murman: The only thing I can say is that I am not as familiar with what is going on with the trends in planning up there. I have not heard anything similar for Calgary. However, it CAN be said that you haven't yet seen the effects of the Ring.

[240glt]

240: Use existing roadways by limiting access and instituting tolls. You could easily throw a toll on Deerfoot for N-S traffic and divert #1 from 16N to Glenmore Trail. In Edmonton, do the same for the Yellowhead. Additional secondary highways well beyond the city (at the edge of the metropolitan area or just outside) would be preferrable to more costly superfreeways. This could function by diverting the QE2 well south of Leduc for those heading north past Edmonton for instance.

Interesting ideas but lets be realistic for a minute: A toll system on Deerfoot would certainly reduce the numer of wheels on the road, but is not going to solve anything, and would probably make adjascent corridors a nightmare. Running the #1 down Glenmore would be crazy even with the new interchange at Elbow (& all the rest of the at grade intersections gone) As fro Edmonton.. we're dealing with people coming from the south, up to Fort Mac (NE) from the south towards grand prarie (NW) from the east to the west AND from one municipality in the region to another. It's not like... say Kelowna... where EVERYONE on hwy 97 is headed straight through town in one or the other direction... we've got people going all over the place. I think that's what makes the situation difficult to deal with.

I don't like sprawl and car-centric-ism either, but especially in places like Calgary and Edmonton, I just don't see how you are going to avoid it. Forcing the issue isn't going to make people move downtown & not own a car... it's going to make them move somewhere else.

[Kevin_foster]

Hover Cars are the answer

Honestly.

[feepa]

Originally Posted by Kevin_foster

Hover Cars are the answer

Honestly.

How about some hover high speed trains? No tracks required, only cost is the train!

[240glt]

That'd be cool.... but it needs to have lasers

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Interesting ideas but lets be realistic for a minute: A toll system on Deerfoot would certainly reduce the numer of wheels on the road, but is not going to solve anything, and would probably make adjascent corridors a nightmare. Running the #1 down Glenmore would be crazy even with the new interchange at Elbow (& all the rest of the at grade intersections gone) As fro Edmonton.. we're dealing with people coming from the south, up to Fort Mac (NE) from the south towards grand prarie (NW) from the east to the west AND from one municipality in the region to another. It's not like... say Kelowna... where EVERYONE on hwy 97 is headed straight through town in one or the other direction... we've got people going all over the place. I think that's what makes the situation difficult to deal with.

All good points. I remain convinced though, that we should best utilize infrastructure before adding more capacity. We also have to make the hard choice of who roads are serving. If we intend to build highways for the economy (ie. shipping) then make it so. Don't allow both commuters and industry onto the same road. Better yet, make the industry pay for a lot of it. I agree that Edmonton has some challenges that seperate it from Calgary.

I don't like sprawl and car-centric-ism either, but especially in places like Calgary and Edmonton, I just don't see how you are going to avoid it. Forcing the issue isn't going to make people move downtown & not own a car... it's going to make them move somewhere else.

I never said I want everyone to move downtown. Obviously people are going to want to live in the suburbs. However, growth just for the sake of it is not a positive. When you are experiencing a growing infrastructure deficit and a declining quality of life for most residents, it's better off to be stagnant or grow more slowly. There is a compromise somewhere in there, but I don't think the Ring Road is part of it.

Nice to have a decent conversation on the subject though. Much better than the High Speed Rail thread.