Mesa, Arizona - A Conservative City Success?

[Reverberation]

Originally Posted by strongbad635

There is a correlation between higher density and liberal people. The causational side of the equation has two probable theories:

1. People who are already liberal seek out high-density living arrangements because their more egalitarian and multicultural outlook causes them to seek places where they can be exposed to a wider variety of different cultures, beliefs and points of view.

2. High density itself is a liberalizing force, because living amongst people from a wide variety of different backgrounds exposes someone to a wider variety of cultural viewpoints, enhances one's critical thinking skills, and causes one to be more skeptical of authority.

Not sure which one is true. I incline toward the first one, but it may be a blend of both.

You say that but then I read the next dozen or so posts from liberal urban dwellers that smack of arrogance and regional bigotry...... All the ignorance that you attribute to the burbs but with an urban flavor and a total lack of self awareness.

Having grown up in the suburbs, I never once heard anyone speak in such a condescending way about city dwellers. If anyone ever did dislike the city it was usually the traffic or schools or real estate prices or corrupt leadership. I agree with Leo, back to talking about what is so bad about a city with Conservative governance.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Phoenix22

At least we are not infected with homeless everywhere like in DC, SF or NY
we are not infected with liberals that want everything free and are turning California into Mexifornia

we don't run out of power or water like Mexifornia, we know how to manage our resources much better than Mexifornia.

I wonder why so many people from Mexifornia move here and not the other way around

Haha? In order to punish and humiliate me personally for holding the politically incorrect opinion that Mesa is ugly and isn't a real city, you change the subject and attack Mexicans, liberals, Californians and the homeless. I guess you have to be a racist Arizona conservative to get the joke.

Anyway, Oklahoma City is a better poster-boy for successful conservative cities--unlike Mesa, it's a real city, and has some attractive areas.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by Reverberation

You say that but then I read the next dozen or so posts from liberal urban dwellers that smack of arrogance and regional bigotry...... All the ignorance that you attribute to the burbs but with an urban flavor and a total lack of self awareness.

Having grown up in the suburbs, I never once heard anyone speak in such a condescending way about city dwellers. If anyone ever did dislike the city it was usually the traffic or schools or real estate prices or corrupt leadership. I agree with Leo, back to talking about what is so bad about a city with Conservative governance.

The Culture War that is ripping this country apart politically is exactly this. "Urban elements", for example, is code for black people. Multiculturalism is routinely scorned by pundits like Bill O'Reilly. Mass transit and trains are derided in media like The Wall Street Journal. Right-wing think tanks employ apologists for sprawl like Wendell Cox, Joel Kotkin, and Randal O'Toole. This is not merely a war where innocent suburbanites are abused by haughty cosmopolites. It's a cultural schism where values are debated, analyzed and often mocked. Virtually any comment thread from an online news site shows a healthy preponderance of this argumentation coming from the right. A site like this one where specifically urban manifestations like skyscrapers are the point will have advocates for the density enabled by them. Is that so strange?

Right-wingers dish it out with gusto, as listening to five seconds of AM talk radio will prove. They get awfully thin-skinned, for some reason, when the values are coming from the other side. I would suggest not taking this too personally. Yes, some of us are fierce advocates for our values but free speech is not without its discomforts. This applies to both sides. Having lived in Arizona most of my life, I'm glad to live in a state now where liberalism and cultural diversity are celebrated. I'm proud of those values and I'm happy to point out how they are coincide with vibrant cities and healthy economies. I've spent enough time in Mesa to know exactly where I don't want to be.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Kenmore

just trolling or do you honestly believe this?

Not trolling, just presenting FACTS.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

That picture is actually located on the far eastern fringe of Mesa. I don't think it's even within the city limits.

Thanks. Looking on Google Earth, I found what may be the sign shown in the pic. It's near a small community shown as "Thunder Mountain". Definitely not typical Mesa, which is generally flat and bland looking.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

That's an affluent area?!? I nearly spit out my drink when I read that.

Yes, it is, especially to the vast majority of people who can't afford decent housing. I suspect those homes are quite expensive for the area. Your comment makes it sound like you're trying to flaunt your affluence by looking down your nose at these homes.

As for the nasty politics exhibited here by some, why not leave that kind of crap for the political part of the forum, where you can pretty much be as obnoxious as you want (which is fine).

[Phoenix22]

Originally Posted by fflint

Haha? In order to punish and humiliate me personally for holding the politically incorrect opinion that Mesa is ugly and isn't a real city, you change the subject and attack Mexicans, liberals, Californians and the homeless. I guess you have to be a racist Arizona conservative to get the joke.

Anyway, Oklahoma City is a better poster-boy for successful conservative cities--unlike Mesa, it's a real city, and has some attractive areas.

that is ok, whatever you said we are happy here

but you can keep supporting all the Ilegals with welfare, driver licenses, obamacare, you can keep paying those ridiculous rents, gas prices and those crazy taxes

if that is what you call a progressive
a state that is falling apart and companies movies as far as they can away from California

[dc_denizen]

the realistic attitude of someone from Mesa is to own up to the limitations of the city - obviously, its suburban built form, its uninteresting flat landscape, limited cultural attractions, and lifestyle requiring you to get on the freeway to get a gallon of milk. The advantages, are certainly there too (cheap, nice weather, some natural areas close by).

It takes an ornery kind of right winger, as the one posting above, to somehow turn this around to attack great, thriving AMERICAN!! cities like SF or NYC. This species is sadly prevalent in the US, the self-satisfied exburbanite two or three generations removed from white flight out of Newark or Detroit or wherever the fuck, but who has somehow inherited riot-era mentalities and anti-city attitudes. These people, simply put, hate America and any idea of a commonwealth of Americans.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

That's an affluent area?!? I nearly spit out my drink when I read that.

It's pretty obvious that they're all very big and recent houses. McMansions in a Faux-Mexican / U.S. Southwest Desert style.

So, yeah, clearly an affluent area. Might not be to your taste architecturally, or close enough to the ocean for you, or whatever, but it's still an affluent area.

Huge new single-family houses on big lots == affluent area. Always. It's inescapable.

If you know an area in this country where people that are lower middle class or below are managing to live in SFHs that are both 1) huge and 2) very recent, please tell us. I'd be very curious to hear about it...

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Thanks. Looking on Google Earth, I found what may be the sign shown in the pic. It's near a small community shown as "Thunder Mountain". Definitely not typical Mesa, which is generally flat and bland looking.

The urbanized area of Mesa is on a flat, uplift from the Salt River Channel. The ancient Hohokam settled here as well because it was safe from flooding, yet provided water for the ancient canals to deliver water for crops. Many modern canals were constructed atop ancient canals. Northeast Mesa gains elevation as it lies in the foothills of the Tonto National Forest.

The area has been inhabited with significant villages/civilization for over a thousand years.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by Phoenix22

that is ok, whatever you said we are happy here

but you can keep supporting all the Ilegals with welfare, driver licenses, obamacare, you can keep paying those ridiculous rents, gas prices and those crazy taxes

if that is what you call a progressive
a state that is falling apart and companies movies as far as they can away from California

Obamacare specifically excludes illegals. Of course, you wouldn't know that unless you listen to news outlets other than Fox.

By the way, your post doesn't set a good example for education in Arizona (where did you learn to write?). I know mine isn't perfect, but your post is ridiculous.

[Phoenix22]

Originally Posted by fflint

Haha? In order to punish and humiliate me personally for holding the politically incorrect opinion that Mesa is ugly and isn't a real city, you change the subject and attack Mexicans, liberals, Californians and the homeless. I guess you have to be a racist Arizona conservative to get the joke.

Anyway, Oklahoma City is a better poster-boy for successful conservative cities--unlike Mesa, it's a real city, and has some attractive areas.

I am not racist, I just don't like liberal cities, and I am not alone on this

San Francisco is a very progressive city, that Is why there are news like this everyday coming from the city by the bay

Schwab tells employees: Good-bye San Francisco, hello Texas

Charles Schwab's exodus from San Francisco is taking on new energy after the company told employees in the city that it plans to move "a significant number of San Francisco-based jobs" to other locations over the next three to five years.

"Additionally, as has been our practice for the last number of years, future firm expansion will be concentrated in these centers," said Schwab spokesman Greg Gable. The company didn't say how many jobs will be leaving San Francisco, where the headquarters will remain.

"We expect to maintain a significant presence of employees here at headquarters," Gable said.

Schwab plans to move jobs to Texas, Colorado and elsewhere. The move isn't sitting well with employees who were told by the company in December that they may have to pull up roots for the Lone Star State or other points east.


http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfranci....html?page=all

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Yes, it is, especially to the vast majority of people who can't afford decent housing. I suspect those homes are quite expensive for the area.

Originally Posted by lio45

It's pretty obvious that they're all very big and recent houses. McMansions in a Faux-Mexican / U.S. Southwest Desert style.

So, yeah, clearly an affluent area. Might not be to your taste architecturally, or close enough to the ocean for you, or whatever, but it's still an affluent area.

You guys, I only see one small paved road. To me, dirt roads and dirt yards don't scream luxurious neighborhood. The lots aren't even that big, the houses look really close to each other.

[AviationGuy]

Phoenix22, you say you just don't like liberal cities. So you must be pretty uncomfortable living among the increasing liberalness of Phoenix, eh? That must be awful living among people who are different from you, like all those LGBT and Mexican people invading your area, people who know Fox News deliberately misleads, people who respect science, people who don't subscribe to the "let them die" philosophy of health care, people who believe in sharing the responsibility for public infrastructure, people who don't discriminate against people who are born differently from themselves, people who believe in real family values, people who actually know what Christ and other religious leaders said and meant.

It's not all bad for you, though. No matter where you choose to live, you can find plenty of like minded people. You could move to San Francisco and quickly develop a circle of conservative friends. I could move to Mesa and quickly develop a circle of moderate to liberal friends.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

You guys, I only see one small paved road. To me, dirt roads and dirt yards don't scream luxurious neighborhood. The lots aren't even that big, the houses look really close to each other.

You could find these homes on Google Earth and then look for the online tax records and see what they're appraised at. But remember that what is a high value in AZ isn't going to match CA.

My Uncle lives in a similar neighborhood on the fringes of Tucson, and has a dirt or gravel driveway, as do the other homes on his street. He has an adobe-style, flat roof, approximately 2,000 ft2 home that was recently appraised at $495,000. In AZ suburbs that's a nice place. I realize that in CA $495K gets you a serious dump of a house.

[Chicago103]

If someone wanted to make a case for "conservative" governance working in major U.S. cities wouldn't it make more sense to talk about Guiliani/Bloomberg era New York City? Other cities in the 1990's had conservative (relative to urban U.S. cities) or moderate (or at least people who were clearly not ideologue liberals) mayors, Riordan in Los Angeles, Daley in Chicago, etc. Sure many people would debate it but at least there is some kind of argument to make there.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Phoenix22

I am not racist

Yes, you are most certainly racist.

Your epithet "Mexifornia" is an insult to 40 million people. Shame on you.

Shame. On. You.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by Phoenix22

we conserver more water than all CAlifornia

I have lived here in AZ for 9 years, I don't know what water restriction is here

However after living in South Florida, North Carolina, I know I had water restriction there. that is ridiculous states with a lot of water with water restriction

I lived in the bay area for a few year long time ago and I still go there sometime

but the city of Mesa or Phoenix is 100 times cleaner that there and the quality of the freeways and street is 1000 times better

every time I go to LA and I see those crapy freeways it make me feel like I am in third world country

I find this comment hilarious concerning water restrictions in South Florida since they are very rare. The only time water restrictions are imposed is when there is a severe drought especially during the dry Winter months.

South Florida gets nearly 5 times the rainfall (56 inches per year) than the entire state of Arizona gets on a yearly basis. By the way water restrictions in South Florida usually means a ban on watering your lawn on certain days or car washing. Certainly not a life altering event!

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

I realize that in CA $495K gets you a serious dump of a house.

Not necessarily always a dump; a house for that much can get you a small house or condo in a somewhat central location, a house in a questionable neighborhood crime-wise, or a bigger house, but somewhere where commuting to your job is a one-hour or more drive one way. I work with someone who lives 50 miles away from work; because of when we work, her commute only takes about 45-50 minutes going to work, but her drive home can take an hour or even 90 minutes, depending on the traffic. She used to live closer to work, but for some reason, she and her husband felt they needed to "own" a home (mortgage), so they got a house in BFE. It's that silly mentality that you MUST own a home. To me, it's not worth it if you have to drive 100 miles a day to go to work and back, and live in an area where there's not much else to do culturally.

[Trae]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

It's comments like these from the same SSP forum members that really make this site a drag. You haven't provided much to the discussion but ignorant, uninformed opinions.

When it is pointed out that you are wrong with your assumptions, you then post something ridiculous and run.


Enough with fflint, back to the discussion.

Mesa is a successful suburb of 460,000 with plenty of room to grow. Growth will consist of infill-density and greenfield development. LRT is expanding and numerous lines/streetcar proposals are being discussed.

The amount of open space is dwindling, but there will be enough room for another huge employment zone, anchored by an airport that one day will relieve PHX. That alone is worth discussing. It is becoming a Ft. Worth or a St. Paul. It's just a suburb, yet has a larger population than many big cities (Minneapolis, Miami, Tampa, Anaheim, Atlanta and denser than ATL), that anchor metro areas. It'll pass up Kansas City and Long Beach this decade. One day it'll pass up Tucson to become the second largest city in AZ.

Would I want to live there? No. Doesnt mean I'm going to hate on it though.

I'm not seeing Mesa becoming anything like Fort Worth or St. Paul, which were two independent cities that grew into another larger one. That is especially true in the case of Fort Worth. Mesa is just becoming a larger Plano maybe. Or an Arlington, Texas.