Your city's total amount of office space and centralization - Page 2

M II A II R II K · #21 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 1:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LMich

Come on, now. Your recent posts here have been vague and so broad to the point of being nearly meaningless.

That's the idea, except for the meaningless part.

MolsonExport · #22 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 1:26 AM**

I will let MikeToronto grab the mike on Toronto CBD vs. the hated burbs ('cept Scarborough).

raggedy13 · #23 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 1:39 AM**

According to CBRE, Vancouver 2Q 2009 is as follows:

Core (DT+Bway)= 26 msf = 63.7% centralized
DT Vacancy = 4.7% (4% for AAA)

Suburban = 14.8 msf = 36.3% decentralized
Suburban Vacancy = 11.3%

Metro = 40.8 msf
Metro Vacancy = 7.8%

http://www.cbre.ca/EN/Our+Offices/Br...et+Reports.htm

jtk1519 · #24 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 1:55 AM**

According to the above provided link, the Dallas CBD contains about 29 million sf while outside the CBD is more than 144 million sf which sounds about right. Las Colinas contains about 22 million sf, the Telcom Corridor contains more than 25 million sf and more than 8 million in the Uptown/Turtle Creek area.

TexasPlaya · #25 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 3:51 AM**

Houston's CBD: 37,930,000
Texas Medical Center: 29,600,000
Citywide: 193,700,000

Couldn't find Uptown's amount but it's supposed to be slightly larger than TMC. It's interesting an unzoned city managed to develop three large employment centers within about 5 miles of each other.

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repo...ket_Report.pdf

WilliamTheArtist · #26 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 2:45 PM**

Couldnt find 2008 or 2009 numbers but these are for 2007. Things improved a lot for Tulsa in 2008 with some huge chunks of downtown office space being taken up, and have remained fairly steady in 2009 with even more absorbtion. We basically have 2 nodes, the old Downtown area, and the new South Tulsa area. I have even had people who are visiting and see the south Tulsa area first think that is our downtown lol.

Sub market... Total Sq. Ft..... %Vacant..... Available Sq. Ft.... Weighted Avg. Rental Rate $

CBD ----------- 8,435,984.... 24.64............. 2,078,276..... 12.49
East----------- 2,270,103..... 50.19............ 1,139,478..... 13.10
Midtown------- 1,842,555..... 15.32.............. 282,289....... 14.51
North Central -- 825,762..... 14.58.............. 120,402....... 12.80
Northeast------ 112,800...... 1.95................2,200......... 11.00
South Central -- 7,361,398...... 19.94............ 1,467,515..... 14.18

Market Total--- 20,848,602..... 24.41............ 5,090,160..... 13.02

Retail Total sq ft ........ 17,195,080

Industrial Total sq ft ....... 57,453,313

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&gl=us

dave8721 · #27 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 3:08 PM**

For some reason Miami's downtown gets broken up into 2 districts, Brickell and the traditional CBD so actually the traditional downtown comes out having less than 10% of the office market just in Miami-Dade County (which counts only 1/3 of the metro). So once the whole metro was factored in Miami's CBD probably accounts for less than 5% of the regions office space. Multi-nodal anyone?

Miami's CBD is actually only the 4th largest business district in Miami-Dade County! Even if you combine Brickell and the CBD into one office district (which they are) its still only the 2nd largest business district.

cabasse · #28 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 8:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Houston's CBD: 37,930,000
Texas Medical Center: 29,600,000
Citywide: 193,700,000

Couldn't find Uptown's amount but it's supposed to be slightly larger than TMC. It's interesting an unzoned city managed to develop three large employment centers within about 5 miles of each other.

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repo...ket_Report.pdf

that 30 million quote for the tmc is total space, not office solely correct? (the colliers link you provided says ~10m a+b+c for "south main/med center")

the urban politician · #29 Posted **Jul 30, 2009, 9:32 PM**

Chicago's downtown having more than 53% of a major metropolitan region's office space is a feat that deserves praise. In a day and age in which fuel is cheap, sprawl is endless, cities are losing the jobs battle against suburbs, and the midwest is struggling within a bicoastally dominant nation, that's quite the accomplishment.

We can thank generations of corruption, lots of trains, and a hell of alot of ambition for that.

tocoto · #30 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 3:43 AM**

Boston/Cambridge 78M sqft
Suburbs 123M sqft

Source: Colliers/Merideth and Grew

J. Will · #31 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 3:52 AM**

I posted this a while ago on another thread.

As of 2005, "Greater Downtown" Toronto (downtown + midtown) had about 82 million square feet of office space (1 metre square = 10.8 square feet).

fleonzo · #32 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 1:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirrus

CBR does not have good data for New York. A lot of places are missing.

New York Regional Total: ???? msf
Midtown: 223.6 msf
Midtown South: 64.4 msf
Downtown: 78.6 msf
Outer Burroughs: ?????

Westchester County: 13.8 msf
Long Island Suburbs: 40.5 msf
New Jersy Suburbs: ?????
Connecticut Suburbs: ?????

Cirrus, you missed a couple NY counties north like Rockland, Putnam, Dutchess, Putnam (small counties though) and Orange. Putting NJ and CT suburbs (like you did) makes it easier to total up then by individual counties. Instead of Westchester county maybe we should lump the above counties mentioned in one group like NYC Northern Suburbs. There must info for the NYC Tri-State Region from somewhere...

urbanactivist · #33 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 1:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Houston's CBD: 37,930,000
Texas Medical Center: 29,600,000
Citywide: 193,700,000

Couldn't find Uptown's amount but it's supposed to be slightly larger than TMC. It's interesting an unzoned city managed to develop three large employment centers within about 5 miles of each other.

http://www.colliers.com/Content/Repo...ket_Report.pdf

Wow, I was not dreaming when I was thinking that the suburban office markets (Greenspoint, Westchase, etc.) weren't fairing as well as the CBD. Some of these corporate entities are starting to consolidate into downtown. I wonder why that is??

blockski · #34 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 2:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by babybackribs2314

As Cirrus said, DC is a white collar city, but it's still crazy that DC has more office space than LA.

The other thing to consider is that I believe those figures are just for privately owned office space, thus they don't consider offices owned by the Feds. The Feds lease quite a bit of space, too - but there's a whole lot of Federally owned office space in DC and the surrounding environs.

VivaLFuego · #35 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 2:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by urbanactivistTX

Wow, I was not dreaming when I was thinking that the suburban office markets (Greenspoint, Westchase, etc.) weren't fairing as well as the CBD. Some of these corporate entities are starting to consolidate into downtown. I wonder why that is??

I've also wondered about some of these marginal office districts around Houston. It seems like over the long run things will consolidate into Downtown, TMC, a very large blob we might call "Uptown / West Loop", and west on the Katy / Energy Corridor. There's just not much to be gained by being in Greenspoint - proximity to the airport is good, but part of the requirement/pattern for outlying (non-CBD) employment districts is also to be immediately adjacent to wealthier areas. To the north and playing off airport proximity, Woodlands is a stronger case than Greenspoint, since if proximity to downtown mattered a firm would just go downtown anyway rather than Greenspoint. I suppose if the north side ever gentrifies Greenspoint might be desirable for offices again but I don't see that happening for a while.

The overall topic of the location of office space around urban areas is very interesting... I think it gives a lot of insight into all the various individual historical quirks about the economies and politics of each urban region. And, as previously mentioned on this thread, it's particularly fascinating that in a city without land use planning (Houston) there is natural agglomeration and concentration. A totally decentralized city is surely not the result of market forces.

The Chemist · #36 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 2:53 PM**

Calgary is the poster child for centralization.

CBD: ~33 million square feet (plus 5 million square feet U/C)
Metro (primarily within City of Calgary limits): ~46 million square feet

LA21st · #37 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 2:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirrus

CB Richard Ellis is a good place to find this sort of thing.

Almost all the jobs in the Washington region are white collar, so we have much more office space per capita than most other cities.

District of Columbia: 118.9 million square feet
Downtown: 108.5 msf
Other: 10.4 msf

Suburban Maryland: 80.1 msf
Montgomery County: 57.2 msf
Prince George's County: 18.3 msf
Frederick County: 4.5 msf

Northern Virginia: 178.4 msf
Fairfax County: 105.4 msf
Arlington County: 36.1 msf
Alexandria City: 36.1 msf
Loudoun County: 13.4 msf
Prince William County: 5.7 msf

DC REGIONAL TOTAL: 377.4 msf
Downtown's 108.5msf accounts for 29% of the total

How can Alexandria match Arlington? There isn't a giant employment center like CC, or Rossyln. I would suspect Alexandria is closer to Loudoun County, or less.

VivaLFuego · #38 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 3:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

Those are very interesting points. It shows how miniscule DT is, while the Greater area simply dwarfs Chicago.

Yes and no - those LA figures are apparently for the CSA, as they include the IE, Ventura, and Orange. It points to the very different economies and industries in the two cities, since the LA CSA is what, about 80% more populous than Chicago CSA? In terms of population, there is way more office space per capita in the Chicago CSA than in the LA CSA - LA has 46% more total office space.

It generally confirms the impression I have (no numbers handy to back it up) of LA being a (or perhaps, the) supreme manufacturing, warehousing, and shipping juggernaut, which are ironically the things that historically Chicago was known for.

Of course the Chicago CSA is itself far behind both NYC and especially DC in terms of office space per capita - again, pointing to differences in the dominant industries in the regional economy.

VivaLFuego · #39 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 3:27 PM**

Philadelphia:

Downtown 43.9m
Suburban: 58.0m
Southern NJ: 17.3m
Northern Delaware: 16.2m
Lehigh Valley: 8.8m

Total: 144.2m
Pct Downtown: 30.4%

VivaLFuego · #40 Posted **Jul 31, 2009, 3:31 PM**

Seattle:

Downtown 39.8m
Seattle Close-in 2.7m
Southend 11.6m
Eastside 29.8
Northend 4.1m
Tacoma 4.1m

Total 92.1m
Pct Downtown 43.2%

Atlanta:
Downtown 18.4m
Midtown 13.7m
Midtown West .5m
"CBD" total 32.6m

Atlanta total 130.5m
Pct CBD 25.0%

The report also gives the following:
Suburban total 84.9m
Urban total 45.6m

I'm thinking the 'urban' total is probably the CBD total I have above, plus Buckhead.