Great Lakes Cities

[Razor]

To me, Montreal could be tied into the Eastern Seaboard and actually the entire Saint Lawrence river area from the Ontario/Quebec border East is ambiguous and can fit into either region.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

In New York state they have separate zones of influence, with upstate NY being part of the Great Lakes Megapolis, and anywhere downstate and close to the city enough to get NYC's influence would be Northeast.

While Buffalo may be a Great Lakes city I'm pretty sure it looks to, and is more influenced by, NYC than Chicago.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

While Buffalo may be a Great Lakes city I'm pretty sure it looks to, and is more influenced by, NYC than Chicago.

But then, do the Canadian cities in the "Great Lakes Megaregion" look more to Chicago than NYC?

Maybe southwestern Ontario (indirectly with shared Midwestern influence with Detroit), but not sure about Toronto, or Montreal. Of course, you could argue, not being in the US, it's equidistant in influence from both and just influenced by "generic big cities in the US" in the abstract.

I think just by being the biggest city, NYC influences much of the country (and points beyond, internationally), so cities farther outside the Midwest, are pulled towards the eastern seaboard, simply because the US center of influence is still kind of there (NYC, Washington DC. etc), though the NE's or the eastern seaboard's dominance has gradually waned over the years as other regions of the country have become more populous.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Does a "British" feel make cities more like the eastern seaboard than the Midwest? Do you mean demographically, culturally or architecturally?

my guess is no. i imagine toronto (i've embarrassingly not been) feels more like commonwealth oceania (have been) but with more (subconscious-ish) american influence and sans subtropical flora and fauna. i only say that because canadians have accents that fairly closely match american accents and i was asked a few times if i were canadian in new zealand. i don't want to step on my wiener, here.

[Centropolis]

god dammit i need to book a flight to big city canada.

[Centropolis]

just kind of wandering around on streetview, it sort of does feel great lakesy but if say an earlier interior city like pittsburgh were on clevelands grid or something and with more pitched roofs, and obviously lots of new stuff that has come down like spaceships. and i don't think toronto is going to have a similar kind of vibe as any us city, from what i can tell, at least at the north american zoom level.

[Centropolis]

i should just redact all of that.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It should probably include Montreal as well. There is very little interruption in development from Detroit to Montreal.

Originally Posted by Capsicum

One could include the entire US Great Lakes region together with Canada's most populated area, going past the border from Detroit to the whole of the Windsor-Quebec city corridor. Then it would roughly correspond to an entire Great Lakes-St. Lawrence river area.

However it seems pretty clear to me Montreal has closer ties to Boston, Albany, and NYC than to Chicago and Detroit. So if it has to be forcibly lumped into one of these so-called megaregions, I'm definitely not sure the "Midwest" one is the best fit.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by lio45

However it seems pretty clear to me Montreal has closer ties to Boston, Albany, and NYC than to Chicago and Detroit. So if it has to be forcibly lumped into one of these so-called megaregions, I'm definitely not sure the "Midwest" one is the best fit.

Well, that's because everybody loathes the Midwest. I started a thread about it a year or two ago. For whatever arbitrary reason, the word "Midwest" is hated and looked down upon, and the word "east coast" is viewed more favorably.

So if a given city is given a choice whether to be affiliated with the east coast or the Midwest (regardless of their true ties), they will choose "east coast" every single time.

Despite its wealth and richness of resources, "Midwest" is viewed as conservative, anti-progressive, and provincial.

For this reason, I have advocated that even Midwestern cities stop using the "Midwest" label, so tarnished that name has become, and instead label themselves as "Cities of the Great Lakes region". I bet you cities like Toronto, etc would more readily affiliate themselves with "Great Lakes cities" than "Midwestern cities".

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Despite its wealth and richness of resources, "Midwest" is viewed as conservative, anti-progressive, and provincial.

Not exactly. Over here, by American saying itself, Michigan is seen as a very manufacturing state that "actually builds stuff", where unions are powerful, as opposed to Alabama that's more traditionally rural than industrial, and where unionism is deemed as a harm to economic growth and interests.
I find it to be an utterly interesting debate...

However, here in Europe, the Scandinavian system tends to show that unionism can be an effective and reliable tool to serve democracy and growth, as long as they're not overly politicized.
The Scandinavian unions only and exclusively defend the interests of their workforce, regardless of any political ideology, in a most pragmatic way.
They just watch worldwide trends, and consequently proceed/act in order to preserve their interests and high standards of living. These are good rational people.

In my country, unions ridiculously shrank over the years. Because they defend no one but their political interests. That's awkward. No one here is relying on them any longer.

To the effect that mere ideology can be harmful. Rationalism is much better.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Well, that's because everybody loathes the Midwest. I started a thread about it a year or two ago. For whatever arbitrary reason, the word "Midwest" is hated and looked down upon, and the word "east coast" is viewed more favorably.

So if a given city is given a choice whether to be affiliated with the east coast or the Midwest (regardless of their true ties), they will choose "east coast" every single time.

I really don't think that's it. From Quebec the U.S. Northeast is just closer and the connections are much easier and more direct. It has nothing to do with being given a choice, it's just about recognizing the reality on the ground.

Southern Ontario is different of course, if you have to associate it to any American region it's unarguably the Midwest.

Conversely, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia have closer ties to New England than to the Great Lakes and that's not just because they "decided so" because "Midwest is a dirty word". It's just the facts.

[softee]

Originally Posted by lio45

Southern Ontario is different of course, if you have to associate it to any American region it's unarguably the Midwest.

A large portion of Southern Ontario is too far East to be lumped in as part of the Midwest. From Toronto-Hamilton-Niagara eastward to the Quebec border and up to Ottawa is most certainly more aligned with upstate NY than with any of the Midwestern States. Cities like Brockville and Kingston and towns such as Perth have a colonial look and feel that is much more in keeping with New England, IMO.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Well, that's because everybody loathes the Midwest. I started a thread about it a year or two ago. For whatever arbitrary reason, the word "Midwest" is hated and looked down upon, and the word "east coast" is viewed more favorably.

So if a given city is given a choice whether to be affiliated with the east coast or the Midwest (regardless of their true ties), they will choose "east coast" every single time.

Despite its wealth and richness of resources, "Midwest" is viewed as conservative, anti-progressive, and provincial.

For this reason, I have advocated that even Midwestern cities stop using the "Midwest" label, so tarnished that name has become, and instead label themselves as "Cities of the Great Lakes region". I bet you cities like Toronto, etc would more readily affiliate themselves with "Great Lakes cities" than "Midwestern cities".

I can't speak for how Americans view the Midwest, but Torontonians would feel rightly perplexed at being lumped into that region because in Canada there's no such thing as a Midwest. Within Canada, the Windsor-Quebec corridor is very much viewed as an eastern region, separated from the west by the vast, rugged wilderness of Northern Ontario. The east and west don't gradually merge into each other like in the US; there's a clear and stark division. Toronto doesn't fit into any megaregion with "west" in the name, let alone Montreal.

Toronto is a Great Lakes city obviously, but that's a region only in the broadest sense. Toronto has much stronger ties to Ottawa and Montreal than Detroit and Chicago. Cities like Cleveland might as well be on another planet. Torontonians would see themselves as part of the Golden Horseshoe, Southern Ontario, and the Windsor-Quebec Corridor, but not any sort of megaregion that spans the border.

With the possible exception of Windsor itself, there's no need to "align" any part of the W-C Corridor with any American region. Its cities are more tied to each other than anything in the States. It's its own thing.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It should probably include Montreal as well. There is very little interruption in development from Detroit to Montreal.

Well I'm not sure what you mean by development, but there are very large rural areas between the cities of that corridor. There are no large cities between the GTA and Ottawa for example, a distance of 350 km. That being said, it's very connected and cohesive as a region despite that distance and, as I said before, can't be lumped into any American or supposed international region. The border is more than a line on a map.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Mister F

The east and west don't gradually merge into each other like in the US; there's a clear and stark division. Toronto doesn't fit into any megaregion with "west" in the name, let alone Montreal.

Exactly, the Midwest concept makes little sense in Canada. Canada has no equivalent of the Corn Belt which is basically the heart of the Midwest (Illinois is home to Chicago and is in the center of the Corn Belt).

Basically in Canada you have the "Michigan" separated from the Great Plains by 1000 miles of thinly populated Canadian Shield. No "I" states. It makes little sense to place Windsor and Winnipeg in the same region.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

just kind of wandering around on streetview, it sort of does feel great lakesy but if say an earlier interior city like pittsburgh were on clevelands grid or something and with more pitched roofs, and obviously lots of new stuff that has come down like spaceships. and i don't think toronto is going to have a similar kind of vibe as any us city, from what i can tell, at least at the north american zoom level.

Interesting perspective.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Canada has no equivalent of the Corn Belt which is basically the heart of the Midwest

Canada does grow corn, but where the corn is grown doesn't really align with the Corn Belt south of the border.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

Exactly, the Midwest concept makes little sense in Canada. Canada has no equivalent of the Corn Belt which is basically the heart of the Midwest (Illinois is home to Chicago and is in the center of the Corn Belt).

Basically in Canada you have the "Michigan" separated from the Great Plains by 1000 miles of thinly populated Canadian Shield. No "I" states. It makes little sense to place Windsor and Winnipeg in the same region.

The other thing is the Windsor-Quebec city corridor is the most densely populated region of Canada, the largest economic region, and includes the two largest cities, as well as the capital, and with both the east and west coasts pretty far away and less influential (the west coast hasn't got a really big city other than Vancouver and the east -- Atlantic Canada -- isn't really full of big cities either). It's the opposite of the US situation where the coasts are seen as having all the "status" and attention.

So, the idea that the Midwest/Great Lakes areas are "passed over" in favor of the coasts or have less prestige doesn't apply to Canada (if the concept of a "Midwest" was used for Ontario).

[Docere]

Corn production for Midwestern states and Ontario (bushels), 2016:

Iowa 2,740,500,000
Illinois 2,255,650,000
Nebraska 1,699,900,000
Minnesota 1,544,000,000
Indiana 946,310,000
South Dakota 825,930,000
Kansas 698,640,000
Wisconsin 573,160,000
Missouri 570,500,000
Ohio 524,700,000
North Dakota 516,660,000
Michigan 320,280,000
Ontario 317,000,000

http://beef2live.com/story-states-produce-corn-0-107129

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...timate_new.htm

[Centropolis]

god i hate corn and flatness. its a physical relief when i’ve been criss-crossing illinois all week and take my dog to a rocky, steep ozark foothill trail in southwest st. louis county on the weekend.