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View Poll Results: Is SEPTA doing a great job in regards to bus, subway, and commuter rail overall??????
YES 56 48.70%
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  #141  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2009, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar View Post
They offer some interesting ideas - BRT, converting the core of the Regional Rail system into a more frequent mid-distance metrorail system.
Fantastic idea! I hope this project gets some attention.
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  #142  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2009, 8:21 PM
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Hubs are a smart idea but will probably be difficult to implement.
Maybe not. Several of the 'metro centers' depicted on the FRANK map are already transit hubs - Broad & Erie, Bridge & Pratt, 52nd & Market. They seem to be strategically placed at crossroads from one part of the city to another (particularly the SW Philly hub). The connecting services ideally would run some form of higher capacity (read: not standard bus) transit that would make the voyage worthwhile if the idea is circulating people between far flung parts of the city.

Really if one looks at a map of Philadelphia now, outside of the Northeast, Philadelphia is a relatively compact city physically and one could draw a straight line between almost any two points in the city and strangely almost never exit city boundaries. This is one reason why I lukewarmly defend the current bus-to-train transfer system that exists here now. Though certainly not as efficient as the subway system we could have had surely would have been, we're fortunate that Philadelphia is not so irregularly oriented that reliable bus service combined with the spinal subway lines we do have won't get people where they need to go with relative ease. We do grapple with the issue of an out-of-date street grid that in many instances can't handle the additional loads of enhanced service. It's strange that some of the most heavily used bus routes (33, 23, 47) operate along narrower streets in many cases.
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  #143  
Old Posted May 13, 2009, 2:25 AM
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PATCO expansion

http://www.patconjexpansion.com/rtedi.html

Tuesday, May 12, 2009
PATCO expansion to be announced today

Inquirer staff writer Paul Nussbaum reports:

Gov. Corzine is expected to announce today the selection of a route for PATCO commuter rail expansion into Gloucester County.

A state panel has recommended the best route would be from Camden to Glassboro along an existing freight rail corridor. That route would do the most to reduce congestion, serve existing communities, and limit suburban sprawl.

The route would serve Glassboro, Pitman, Mantua, Wenonah, Woodbury, Deptford, West Deptford, Westville, Bellmawr, Brooklawn and Gloucester City.


Last edited by Cro Burnham; May 13, 2009 at 2:39 AM.
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  #144  
Old Posted May 13, 2009, 10:41 PM
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Nice to see Philadelphia ain't getting dick squat out of this...it'll really improve Camden's rail transit options, though!
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  #145  
Old Posted May 13, 2009, 10:50 PM
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^ it will get cars off of city streets...what more do you want?
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  #146  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 9:05 PM
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Plan for Gloucester County commuter rail link to Phila. outlined

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

New commuter rail service to link much of South Jersey to Philadelphia was the centerpiece of a $2 billion mass-transportation plan outlined yesterday by Gov. Corzine and transit officials.

Breathing new life into a long-discussed plan to restore rail service between Camden and Glassboro, Corzine promised, "Whatever it takes, we're going to get this done."

That plan calls for diesel light-rail trains to run 18 miles alongside an existing Conrail freight line to serve Glassboro, Pitman, Mantua, Wenonah, Woodbury, Deptford, West Deptford, Westville, Bellmawr, Brooklawn and Gloucester City. The line would connect to PATCO and River Line trains at the Walter Rand Transportation Center in Camden, where passengers could catch trains to Philadelphia or Trenton.

The mass-transit plan also calls for express bus lanes on highly congested Routes 42 and 55, and improved rail service on NJTransit's underused Atlantic City Line, with a passenger stop at PATCO's Woodcrest station in Cherry Hill.

The new light-rail line could be operational as far as Woodbury in five years and to Glassboro and Rowan University in six to 10, said John J. Matheussen, chief executive of PATCO and its parent, the Delaware River Port Authority. PATCO hopes to operate the trains, though that has not been determined.

South Jersey civic, business and labor leaders gathered outside Woodbury's 1883 train station to hail the promised return of passenger rail service after nearly a half- century.

"We hope this will bring things back to the way things were," said Woodbury Mayor Robert Curtis. "These were the original transit villages."

Corzine, who arrived at the gathering about 90 minutes late, noted that $500 million had been committed by the state for the plan, and he said he expected federal funding, as well.

The rail line to Glassboro is expected to cost about $1.3 billion, and Matheussen estimated the cost of express bus lanes on Routes 42 and 55 at $200 million. Costs for the Atlantic City rail line upgrades have not been determined, Corzine and transit officials said, but could run to $500 million or more.

Previous proposals to restore rail service to Gloucester County and beyond have never made it off the drawing boards. This time will be different, said the politicians who gathered yesterday.

"This is not the first time people have had their expectations raised," said U.S. Rep. Rob Andrews (D., Camden). "But this is the first time it is going to get done."

Matheussen said construction could start in 2010 or 2011 on the light-rail line. Hearings will be held, starting next month, around the region.

Studies still need to be done on bus rapid transit plans for Routes 42 and 55 and for improvements to the Atlantic City rail line. Even there, though, Corzine said construction would be years, "not decades," away.

The light-rail route unveiled yesterday was the one recommended by the state Office of Smart Growth and the state Planning Commission. DRPA planners had offered five alternatives along three routes.

Woodbury residents were generally optimistic about the promised return of trains to the Gloucester County seat.

"I think it's going to be good. It will raise up house values and maybe lower taxes with more people coming in," said D.N. Bunch, who was with his wife, Karin, on the sidewalk near the old station. "It'll be a lot easier to get to the sports venues in Philadelphia. And it'll take some cars off the road."

With two children, ages 6 and 14, Karin Bunch said she wanted to make sure they would be safe from passing trains.

"That's my only concern. This is a walking district," she said. "I want to know more about the safety."

Frank Fletcher, owner of the Nut House gift shop, said he hoped a return of passenger trains would do for Woodbury what they did for his old hometown on Long Island.

"Our property values were among the highest in the nation because we were an easy commute to New York," Fletcher said. "Here, we would be an easy commute to Philadelphia. And, as a shop owner, the more affluent my customers are, the more affluent I become."

Matt Wood, a student at Gloucester County College, said train service would make it easier to get to the Rutgers campus in Camden, where he hopes to transfer. And a station in Woodbury would speed his trips to Philadelphia, he said.

"Now, if I want to take the train to Philly, I have to drive to Ferry Avenue" in Camden. "But this is right in my back yard," Wood said.

Students and faculty at Rowan would also benefit, said college president Donald J. Farish.

"Now, you have to have a car," Farish said. "We don't want to have to pave the university. We will strongly encourage people to use the train. ... It might even be in our interests to subsidize the cost" of service.

Tony DeSantis, president of the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers, said his group would have preferred electric trains that could have provided a "one-seat" ride to Philadelphia on PATCO without a transfer in Camden.

But he said, "If they can get the rails down here, that's a good thing. Really, they're just putting back what they took out. They're basically restoring what they had in the past, which was diesel service to Camden."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ho.../44862252.html
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  #147  
Old Posted May 14, 2009, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG in the article View Post
With two children, ages 6 and 14, Karin Bunch said she wanted to make sure they would be safe from passing trains.

"That's my only concern. This is a walking district," she said. "I want to know more about the safety."
Here's an idea. Don't walk in front of a train. Fucking dumbass.
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  #148  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 10:00 AM
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Looks like our subway system is going to get just a tiny bit more extensive. Still doesn't really give me any reason to take PATCO but I do hope it doesn't go unused like, well, the last 3 times it was opened.

Quote:
Franklin Square PATCO stop to be reopened

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

The long-slumbering ghost beneath one of William Penn's five original Philadelphia squares is about to awaken.

The 73-year-old subway station beneath Franklin Square, last used in 1979, will be remodeled and reopened to PATCO commuter trains, Delaware River Port Authority chairman John Estey said yesterday.

Development around Franklin Square, at Sixth and Race Streets, and the rebirth of the once-seedy square have convinced authority officials that the station will have what it had lacked: passengers.

The National Constitution Center, the boom in Northern Liberties, and redevelopment of the old Metropolitan Hospital as MetroClub condominiums have brought renewed bustle to a square isolated by streets and Benjamin Franklin Bridge ramps.

The station eventually could become part of a proposed PATCO expansion along the Philadelphia waterfront.

Four other subterranean PATCO stations in Philadelphia and two in Camden also will get face-lifts this year, with new flooring, lights, security cameras, and stainless-steel columns, port authority officials said yesterday. The upgrades, which require board approval next month, will cost about $9.6 million and be paid for with the agency's controversial "economic development" money.

Franklin Square Station has been preserved much as it was when it closed. PATCO riders can still glimpse its shadowy platforms and green-and-white tiled walls on their way to and from New Jersey.

But the gaudy orange foyer, with its 1970s-era fare lists (35 cents to Philadelphia stations, 75 cents to Lindenwold) and multilingual instructions on "How to Go PATCO," have long been hidden from view.

The port authority's consulting engineers are examining the station to determine how much work is needed to reopen it. Chief executive John Matheussen estimated it would cost at least $5 million to $10 million to install elevators and make the station meet modern standards.

No date is set for the reopening.

The dilapidated 71/2-acre square above the station was renovated in 2006 by nonprofit Historic Philadelphia Inc., which maintains it. A restored 1838 fountain, a carousel, and a miniature golf course draw visitors, and a restaurant - funded with part of a $2.5 million economic-development grant from the port authority - is about to be built.

"With the enhancements there, we anticipate more people will use it than had in the past," Matheussen said. "We're anticipating more traffic."

This will be at least the fifth opening for Franklin Square Station.

It debuted in 1936 as the first Philadelphia stop on the Camden-Philadelphia rail line owned by the Delaware River Joint River Commission and operated by the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co.

The station soon closed because it got little use. Increased activity on the riverfront during World War II prompted its reopening.

Closed again after the war, the station was reactivated in 1953 when the line was extended from Eighth and Market Streets to 15th and Locust Streets. It was soon closed again for lack of use. PATCO took over the line in 1969.

In 1976, when Philadelphia was a center of the nation's Bicentennial celebration, PATCO spent $1.1 million to renovate and reopen Franklin Square Station. It closed again in 1979.

The station now serves as an occasional storage site for construction crews working in the PATCO tunnel. It has electrical power to operate the dim emergency lights that remain and to provide air-compressor power for rail switches.

Cleaning crews go through to pick up debris, and the station is inspected every two years.

One challenge for the new station will be the same as in the past: to get riders safely through the swirling street traffic that surrounds the Franklin Square.

Old green exit signs that read "To 7th Street" and "To Race Street" are propped against subway walls, and plywood covers the tunnel entrances to which they directed commuters. The reopened station will have new outside openings to make it easier for people to use the subway, probably on the south side of Race Street.

"If they open that station, I would use it," said Norman Bell, who works security in Franklin Square and commutes from Camden. "It would make it easier for me."

Brian Toledo, 16, of Northern Liberties, called the square his main hangout and he said he would use PATCO.

"It would reduce the walking and bring more people to the square," Toledo said.

The six other underground Philadelphia and Camden stops on the PATCO line need upgrades to make them safer and more attractive, Camden County Freeholder Jeffrey Nash, the port authority's vice chairman, said yesterday.

"As a PATCO commuter for 10 years, my three concerns were the fare-collection system, security, and the accommodations," he said. "We took care of the fare collection, and now we're addressing the other two."

The concrete floors will be covered with nonporous resin that will be more resistant to odors, and new lighting and cameras will improve security, said Robert Gross, the authority's deputy chief executive.

Pennsylvania and New Jersey each will contribute $4.8 million from the state's economic-development funds to pay for the work. The port authority has been criticized by angry bridge tollpayers for using more than $380 million in economic-development money for museums, sports arenas, and concert halls.

In other business yesterday, the authority's board heard from a group that wants it to rescind a $500,000 grant made in 2003 to help pay for the planned move of the Barnes Foundation's world-class art collection in Merion to a new home on the Benjamin Franklin Parkway in Philadelphia.

About a dozen members of the Friends of the Barnes Foundation addressed the board, and others carried signs protesting the move.

Robert Zaller, a Drexel University history professor, called the move "the greatest art theft since World War II."

"Your $500,000 is a drop in this bucket, but you have the opportunity to be the first public servants to say no," Zaller told the board.

Estey, the board chairman, said staff would reexamine the circumstances of the grant and respond to the citizens' group "shortly."
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  #149  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 5:08 PM
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The PATCO light rail plan seems so half-assed. Why not just go with rapid-transit with a one-seat ride to Philly? Sure you're saving money with light rail, but if it's too slow and incovenient for riders to use it....what's the point?

On the other hand, I'm happy they're opening the PATCO stop at Franklin Square. Between the refurbished square, the Independence Museum, Chinatown and Old City....it may actually get some use. Now build the trolley to the watefront please.
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  #150  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 5:57 PM
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^ can you elaborate? isn't patco one seat to philly as is? are you referring to the river line? what would be nice would be an extension of patco to 30th street station. of course, i don't live in the jerz so i'm not that concerned. but it make sense. good luck to franklin square station but too bad there isn't a way to get a stop in old city instead.
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  #151  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 6:05 PM
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I'm responding to the article about the PATCO Gloucester County extension. Originally, I was under the impression that it would be rapit transit, just like PATCO high-speed line. Instead, they're doing light-rail, just like the River Line. So it's not going to be one seat into Philly, riders will have to transfer in Camden.

The Franklin Square stop is really not far from Old City, just a couple blocks away. Walking distance, even by Jersey standards
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  #152  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 6:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CentralGrad258 View Post
The PATCO light rail plan seems so half-assed. Why not just go with rapid-transit with a one-seat ride to Philly? Sure you're saving money with light rail, but if it's too slow and incovenient for riders to use it....what's the point?

On the other hand, I'm happy they're opening the PATCO stop at Franklin Square. Between the refurbished square, the Independence Museum, Chinatown and Old City....it may actually get some use. Now build the trolley to the watefront please.

How is PATCO saving money by developing light rail??? I was always under the impression that light rail was more expensive than heavy rail due to conversions, technology, and using an overhead electric cable.

If I was running PATCO, I wouldn't really extend the line too far to Glassboro, as that should be responsibility of NJT. I'd love to see more serivce in Camden, Pensauken, and Gloucester City, going all the way to Woodbury, Deptford, Maple Shade, and Cherry Hill. PATCO is supposed to be a subway system w/ immediate coverage, lie PATH in NYC, not run as a long distance system. That's NJT's job to provide that type of service.
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  #153  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 6:41 PM
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The difference between the light rail and heavy rail alternatives is something like $300million
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  #154  
Old Posted May 21, 2009, 10:35 PM
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Where will the Franklin Square station be located? Is it directly under the park? I'm looking at Google maps right now and I see an already existing station labeled "Chinatown Station" just a block away. Is that station not enough to handle demand?
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  #155  
Old Posted May 22, 2009, 8:43 AM
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OhioGuy, I believe the old Franklin Square station is under 7th and Race Streets. Chinatown Station is on SEPTA's Broad Street Line's spur, and Franklin Square is on the PATCO line, which mainly serves South Jersey. The problem with the Chinatown station is that it's really a few blocks off from Chinatown (might as well walk down to the Market-Frankford Line), and service on the spur is very infrequent. You might get a better idea from this map:

http://septa.org/maps/click_map.html
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  #156  
Old Posted May 24, 2009, 12:56 PM
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Been paying attention? The stimulus money is for "shovel ready" projects, not pie-in-the-sky ideas.

This is money well spent.

If you ask me, the Blvd. extension has been studied, re-studied and studied some more.... Seems shovel ready to me.... But SEPTA cant help itself.... buy more friggin busses.
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  #157  
Old Posted May 24, 2009, 5:24 PM
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The difference between the light rail and heavy rail alternatives is something like $300million
You mean $300 more fore light rail, right???!!!

As for the Blvd extension, common sense tells me that it should be connected to the MFL. I've always thought that rebuilding the MFL as an elevated line rather than a subway w/ express service was a big mistake for SEPTA. A lot of people will tell me that constructing a subway is a lot of money is a lot of money, which is true, but it's worth it in the long run!!!

This should've happened when the city gov't actually wanted to scrap the el and replace it w/ the subway, but a lot of Kensington retailers didn't want the line to be scrapped because they felt that they would lose business w/ the loss of the line. At least in West Philly, the retail districts radiate from the MFL (52nd St, 60th St, etc.). But as usual, we have shitty subway service and an even shittier bus system!!!
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  #158  
Old Posted May 25, 2009, 5:17 PM
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Dude, come off it.

Firstly, there are very few subway lines worldwide that run four track service. The Second Avenue Subway u/c right now in New York wil run almost entirely as a two-track route. The alignment is not a necessity these days as headways can be elctronically controlled. Int the case of The El, the route length and capacity don't necessarily call for such a high capacity alignment.

Secondly, such high capacity alignments typically make sense when multpile lines converge. Look at Chicago and New York, the only other American cities with four track routes. Every line that actually uses all four tracks don't run a single route - they are truck routes that ultimately split into branches. The reason the BSS was built that way was for that very reason. There are no El spurs and it's unlikely we'll ever see them. The Broad Street Subway is the line with all the extension and expansion plans for a reason.

For the umpteenth time, the bus/rail system is not perfect but in the absence of a more expansive rail system, it works. It actually works. People are able to get from one side of the city to the other - ineffciently in some cases but it works. If you'd like an example of a larger system that works much the same way, try Chicago.
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  #159  
Old Posted May 25, 2009, 8:15 PM
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You mean $300 more fore light rail, right???!!!
no, $300 more for the heavy, that's why the light rail is the preferred alternative.
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  #160  
Old Posted May 26, 2009, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar View Post
Dude, come off it.

Firstly, there are very few subway lines worldwide that run four track service. The Second Avenue Subway u/c right now in New York wil run almost entirely as a two-track route. The alignment is not a necessity these days as headways can be elctronically controlled. Int the case of The El, the route length and capacity don't necessarily call for such a high capacity alignment.

Secondly, such high capacity alignments typically make sense when multpile lines converge. Look at Chicago and New York, the only other American cities with four track routes. Every line that actually uses all four tracks don't run a single route - they are truck routes that ultimately split into branches. The reason the BSS was built that way was for that very reason. There are no El spurs and it's unlikely we'll ever see them. The Broad Street Subway is the line with all the extension and expansion plans for a reason.

For the umpteenth time, the bus/rail system is not perfect but in the absence of a more expansive rail system, it works. It actually works. People are able to get from one side of the city to the other - ineffciently in some cases but it works. If you'd like an example of a larger system that works much the same way, try Chicago.
And for the umpteenth time, please stop slamming ALL of my opinions when you can't even present a plan of your own. Do you have one??? Then please stop, because this is getting to be utterly ridiculous coming from you everytime you respond.

I'll admit SEPTA sucks, and even though we a least have a mass transit system of buses, trains, and trolleys, it's not just that it sucks, but utterly inefficient, as well!!!

Do we really need spurs to ensure that we have four track service to the NE??? If you look at NYC's subway system, especially the Bronx, it has a middle third track for possible express service:

Bronx
http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/biguptown.png

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbronx.png

Brooklyn
http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbklyn-3.png

If you take a look at the Q line from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach, it has express service. There aren't any trunk lines, but there are connecting lines (F, N, etc.).

And while there hasn't been any trunk lines for the MFL (big mistake nor replacing the line to Penn's Landing, when it was an el), it should've had trunk lines in Upper Darby to Norristown (Route 100) and another one going to what should've been Darby Terminal.

We could've had two more four track subways, along w/ the BSL and the MFL, along w/ the NW lines, but when it comes to mass transit systems, Philly just flat out sucks because it wastes it potential on what could be a system along the lines of a NYC, Chicago, Boston, SF, and DC.

And don't even go there with the buses and the commuter rail. SEPTA's just a money making machine that doesn't even care about it's costumers, and you know it!!! Why defend them???!!!
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