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  #61  
Old Posted Dec 31, 2010, 11:53 PM
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By the way, I started a thread in city discussions asking around about existing county courthouses that have any other shared uses.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=187682
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  #62  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoot View Post
Yes; unless they go through the process of changing the FAR. There is no need take that step, in this case. The block is roughly 1.77 acres; thus, if the building were to take up the entire block, the county would be able to construct an 8-story building with almost 617,000 SF of space (with the current FAR restrictions). As of now, the county is planning on a 500,000 SF structure.

A 17-story tower, covering the entire block, would encompass approximately 1,310,720 SF of space. Therefore, the “tower” portion will not take up the entire block.
So then it sounds like with the tower portion taking up that little space that they could easily make it taller if they wanted or needed. The bulk of the space would be set back a good ways from the street then, which could enable them to have street level retail. Then on top of the tower they could have another major use, like commercial office or condos.
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  #63  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 8:07 AM
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Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post
By the way, I started a thread in city discussions asking around about existing county courthouses that have any other shared uses.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=187682
not plenty responses, or even positive ones. i guess that answers the question.

I don't know.... I guess we can't do anything about it. I'm also more upset with AMOA because they had to go and sell it to the wrong people. This is ridiculous. All well, we'll see what happens.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 1, 2011, 6:21 PM
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Interesting discussion over there. The problem I would have as a retailer is that the county said they would offer the space until they needed it. It takes 10 years or so just to get a biz profitable and start, just start, returning some dollars on the investment. (Mind you it may take 20 before all of your investment is returned when opportunity cost is considered, and possibly 30 after you account for all the 80 hour weeks you put into it and 40 after the government gets done taxing you to death because you're "a wealthy American making over 200K a year".) If one felt their lease was not going to be renewed in 10 or 15 years, they may consider it too risky to lease that location.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas View Post

The only thing is, I'm not sure I've ever heard of a courthouse building, or even a courthouse block with any other attached or even semi attached use associated with it.

The editorial in the Austin American Statesman mentioned that

Quote:
In Brooklyn, N.Y., a federal courthouse shares a building with a hotel. There are separate entrances, and the walls between the hotel and the courthouse are blast-proof, but otherwise they co-exist with no apparent ill effects on either.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2011, 6:45 PM
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County prepares for November bond referendum

Quote:
Travis County officials plan to whittle down a list of about $550 million in proposed projects for a November bond referendum. Planning and budget officials have said that the amount needs to be pared down to $200 million, according to other county staff.


http://www.statesman.com/blogs/conte...ovember_b.html

Quote:
County officials have said that as early as November, voters could consider approving bonds to construct a civil and family courthouse on a downtown lot that they closed on last week.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jan 5, 2011, 8:54 PM
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I wrote to Mr. Biscoe....this is the response I got:

"I am willing to consider any and all public/private partnerships possible to ensure the success and positive contribution of any new courthouse we construct downtown. Although some restrictions apply, there is legal room for outstanding creativity. A well designed building, pedestrian friendly, with street level retail and other attractive features makes sense to me. We will invite public input in the design and construction phase of the project. Moreover, we will have citizen participation to prepare the bond referendum for voter consideration early in the process.


By the way, the decision to purchase this particular piece of property came late in the decision making process. My preference from the beginning was to select property already owned by the county and tailored it to meet our need. We tried every possible strategy, every consolidation and configuration imaginable, but came up empty. The best we could do was a tract about one-fourth the size we needed, and it had capitol view corridor issues. We talked about acquiring land for a courthouse for about 10 years, and we actively sought a tract to purchase for more than two years. I am convinced that we exhausted every other possibility before landing on this one.

Thank you for your input."

So there are several opportunities to see that this is done well. Please feel free to add on.... and by all means, follow thru!

-make sure your voice is heard by the city so they take action
-make sure you write Biscoe
-participate in the public input on the design phase.
-press for assurances of desired outcomes in exchange for support of bond.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2011, 5:10 PM
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Realized today that the proposed courthouse height would be approx the height of the AMLI to the south. Then looked over the notice that this would be Approx the height of the Hotel Portion of the W thereby not getting into the views of the W condos. Interesting.
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  #69  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2011, 1:07 AM
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^Did any article actually mention a foot height for the courthouse? I'm thinking it'll be slightly taller or even a good bit taller than AMLI. AMLI is 225 feet tall. The courthouse could end up being as much as 275 feet to 300 feet tall.

The criminal justice center in downtown has 11 floors and is 204 feet tall. An 11-story condo or apartment building would probably be around 140 to 150 feet tall.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jan 11, 2011, 9:00 PM
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County to develop guidelines for private-public partnerships for civil courthouse

Travis County commissioners today unanimously gave the go-ahead to county officials to develop guidelines for public-private partnerships for building projects — mainly for a proposed civil courthouse.

County leaders have said that they might call for a November bond election for the construction of a civil courthouse — expected to cost at least $300 million — on a downtown lot that the county purchased late last month. The courthouse construction would appear on the ballot as a separate proposition, officials said.

Commissioners appointed four officials to work on guidelines for public-private partnerships. According to one of the officials, possible guidelines could include circumstances for sharing space with a private party in the facility, credentials the private party would need to meet and who would pay for what.

The move is part of early preparations for a November bond referendum. Over the next several months, officials will try to whittle down to $200 million a list of transportation and parks projects that currently total more than $550 million for a possible bond election in November. Commissioners are expected to make a final decision in August or September on whether to call the election and what projects would be included.

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/conte...evelop_gu.html
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  #71  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 6:56 AM
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$300 million is an insane amount of money to lavish on a courthouse project. This thing is going to meet with some stiff opposition at the polls, and I think I would be one to vote against it. Unfortunately I live in Bastrop County. A really good office block or hotel or apartment project could be built there for way fewer bucks, and I can practically guarantee it would look better and contribute more to the immediate environment and the property tax rolls too.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 4:23 PM
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I would bet most of the money is for security and fortification. I don't really see it being overly stylish.

I admit the price is high for a courthouse, but $300 million isn't really a high price for a highrise.

Also I would imagine the county is "shooting high" in anticipation that voters will complain about that number, so they'll likely go with a lower number to appease the public to get the amount they really want and need.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 5:33 PM
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The language of the article suggests that the county is seeking minimal private involvement. I wouldn't expect any more than the (bare minimum) required to satisfy the city and downtown-area boosters.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 8:02 PM
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Anybody know how much the W project cost. How about the Four Seasons? Just curious. I seem to remember a figure for the W coming in under 200 million total.
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  #75  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 8:37 PM
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Originally Posted by austlar1 View Post
Anybody know how much the W project cost. How about the Four Seasons? Just curious. I seem to remember a figure for the W coming in under 200 million total.
$300M....

http://www.statesman.com/business/co...11stratus.html
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  #76  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 9:17 PM
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The Four Seasons was budgeted at $125 million. I read somewhere recently (and will be happy to go back and look up the link) that the Frost tower cost $137 million about 10 years ago, which might mean a cost of around $200 million max in today's dollars. I kind of wonder about that $300 million figure for the W quoted in the Stateman article, wondering whether the developers aren't doing what developers do, which is to play with the truth sometimes. Maybe it cost that much, but I kind of doubt it. I don't think the Austonion even cost that much. Perhaps the costs associated with fitting out a hotel and the other street level amenities added a lot to the W's costs.

http://www.amazines.com/Real_Estate/...ticleid=415457

Last edited by austlar1; Jan 12, 2011 at 10:11 PM.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2011, 10:45 PM
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Re Courthouse. I do not want an ugly county building on Republic Sq. Civic buildings do not have to be boring buildings.. SO if they are going to build the thing, please do not fund a big dud.
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  #78  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 12:09 AM
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Here is a link with some other downtown construction costs.

http://texas.construction.com/featur...0611_cover.asp

360 for $85 million
Spring for $60 milliion
Altavida (whatever it is called nowadays) for $90 million.

These appear to be construction figures or estimates. I don't know about land costs.

This same article estimates the W project (Block 21) to have costs in excess of $200 million

I am still looking for Austonion figures.

The bottom line seems to be that you can build a whole lot of apartment or office building for less than $300 million and keep the project on the tax rolls when it is finished. I am all for a downtown courthouse at a different location. That site is just too prime and would likely eventually fill up with something altogether better. Just because it will be another highrise does not mean that it needs to get built.

Last edited by austlar1; Jan 13, 2011 at 1:01 AM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 2:49 PM
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I read somewhere, can't remember where, that the Austonian was around $180 million. I'll look around for a link and add it in if I find it. I'm pretty sure it was a good bit less than the W, but the W has a lot that the Austonian doesn't. I'm not sure how much making something like this courthouse multipurpose increases the cost, but maybe that is why it cost so much? Or maybe they are planning on making out of the rarest marble and doors painted in gold to cost this much. =) $300 million seems like a lot to me.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2011, 9:30 PM
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One thing to remember is that the numbers those articles are quoting tend to be different from the actual cost. The reason is the writer gets the estimated cost from the developer before construction has started. They're simply estimates that the developer gives. And the writers of those articles rarely go back to double check and get the cost after completion. Many things come into play such as material availability and cost and the construction schedule. If a project goes over their schedule, it adds to the cost. That's why you usually hear about some project touting its success as being "on time and under budget". Those two are closely related. It's one reason why some fine details that were in the original plan get left out from the final product. They ultimately decided to cut them out to save money.
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