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  #101  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2015, 5:48 AM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
I'm pretty sure Boston was in a different league when it comes to the depth and breadth of downtown shopping in the early- to mid- 20th century than cities like Buffalo, Cincinnati, etc.
Surprisingly...not really. A lot of people forget that the New England region was actually in decline in the early 20th century -- it was the first part of the country to deindustrialize, as the textile mills that powered the nineteenth-century economy moved down South. Boston's economy was resparked by doing what Pittsburgh did before Pittsburgh did it as well as being the part of the country where venture capital was innovated. MIT spawning one of the early centers of the computer industry didn't hurt either.

In any event, 1950's Downtown Crossing only had three major retailers: Filene's, Jordan Marsh, and Stearn's. Downtown Crossing itself is also extremely compact, much more so than other major retail districts. It would have been comparable to Baltimore's Lexington Market (four: Hecht's, Stewart's, Hutzler's, Hochschild Kahn) in its prime, but Downtown Crossing weathered the 20th century better -- about as well as Philadelphia's Market East -- than Baltimore.

A lot of what makes Boston Boston is because it hit its economic nadir so early (and it wasn't as bad as other Northeastern industrial cities), and so was one of the first cities to begin revitalizing.
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  #102  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2015, 6:50 AM
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Looking at some of these photo's on this thread, I can't stop thinking of what Will Durant had to say in one of his History books:

Man has an equal desire to build and to destroy!
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  #103  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2015, 5:52 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Surprisingly...not really. A lot of people forget that the New England region was actually in decline in the early 20th century -- it was the first part of the country to deindustrialize, as the textile mills that powered the nineteenth-century economy moved down South. Boston's economy was resparked by doing what Pittsburgh did before Pittsburgh did it as well as being the part of the country where venture capital was innovated. MIT spawning one of the early centers of the computer industry didn't hurt either.
While it is true New England's mill towns industrialized and de-industrialized earlier than the rest of the country, by 1900 downtown Boston's economy was not dependent upon manufacturing and so, on that count alone, there's no good reason to conclude there was a paucity of shopping in downtown Boston in the early- and mid-20th century relative to smaller, newer population centers like Buffalo or Cincinnati.

According to Wikipedia, "Between 1895 and 1917, Downtown Crossing became the hub of department store shopping in Boston. In 1841, Eben Jordan and Benjamin L. Marsh opened the first Jordan Marsh store as wholesalers, which later grew into a retail department store. Another major store, Filene's, was founded in 1881...the store expanded, opening the 'Automatic Bargain Basement' in 1909" which "would go on to become a major department store independent of Filene's." Gilchrist's and Kennedy's also opened in the neighborhood, and "These stores attracted more middle-class visitors, including those from the suburbs, and anchored other retail services, including food and restaurants." I don't know anything about Stearn's but if we include it that gives us six department stores and an untold amount of smaller shops in Boston's admittedly compact (as is the rest of the city) downtown shopping district, which was the only game in town and a regional destination for a relatively large population for most of the 20th century.

Of course, the spread of post-war blight and suburban shopping malls eventually detracted from the downtown retail center--as is true in every US city, including Buffalo and Cincinnati. Yet there's no question Boston's downtown shopping district, which was revitalized circa 1979 with traffic diversions and other changes, remained even during America's urban nadir more vital than any but a handful in the nation--and remains so to this day.
I'm not seeing any evidence for the claim Boston's primary shopping district was on par with downtown retail centers in much less populous metropolitan areas like Buffalo or Cincinnati.
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  #104  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2015, 7:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
While it is true New England's mill towns industrialized and de-industrialized earlier than the rest of the country, by 1900 downtown Boston's economy was not dependent upon manufacturing and so, on that count alone, there's no good reason to conclude there was a paucity of shopping in downtown Boston in the early- and mid-20th century relative to smaller, newer population centers like Buffalo or Cincinnati.

According to Wikipedia, "Between 1895 and 1917, Downtown Crossing became the hub of department store shopping in Boston. In 1841, Eben Jordan and Benjamin L. Marsh opened the first Jordan Marsh store as wholesalers, which later grew into a retail department store. Another major store, Filene's, was founded in 1881...the store expanded, opening the 'Automatic Bargain Basement' in 1909" which "would go on to become a major department store independent of Filene's." Gilchrist's and Kennedy's also opened in the neighborhood, and "These stores attracted more middle-class visitors, including those from the suburbs, and anchored other retail services, including food and restaurants." I don't know anything about Stearn's but if we include it that gives us six department stores and an untold amount of smaller shops in Boston's admittedly compact (as is the rest of the city) downtown shopping district, which was the only game in town and a regional destination for a relatively large population for most of the 20th century.

Of course, the spread of post-war blight and suburban shopping malls eventually detracted from the downtown retail center--as is true in every US city, including Buffalo and Cincinnati. Yet there's no question Boston's downtown shopping district, which was revitalized circa 1979 with traffic diversions and other changes, remained even during America's urban nadir more vital than any but a handful in the nation--and remains so to this day.
I'm not seeing any evidence for the claim Boston's primary shopping district was on par with downtown retail centers in much less populous metropolitan areas like Buffalo or Cincinnati.
Perhaps you haven't been to any of them? You can still see the mark, if you know what you're looking for.

Boston's retail core was observably smaller than e.g. Philadelphia's or DC's, even in its prime. In fact, in terms of retail diversity, Boston ca. 1950 would have been closer to Lexington Market in Baltimore and equivalent centers in Cincinnati, Buffalo, Cleveland, or St. Louis. This actually seems fairly appropriate for the era. That isn't theory -- that's straight-up observation of the count of major retailers (department stores):

- Philadelphia: Five -- Wanamaker's, Strawbridge's, Gimbels, Lit Brothers, Snellenburg's
- DC: Five -- Kann's, Hecht's, Woodward & Lothrop, Garfinckel's, Lansburgh's
- Baltimore: Four -- Hecht's, Stewart's, Hutzler's, Hochschild Kohn
- Cincinnati: Four -- Mabley & Carew, McAlpin's, Pogue's, Shillito's
- Boston: Three -- Filene's, Jordan Marsh, Stearn's
- Cleveland: Three -- Higbee's, Halle Brothers, May
- Buffalo: Three -- AM&A, Hengerer's, Hens & Kelly
- St. Louis: Two -- Famous-Barr, Stix Baer Fuller

You can obviously keep going with this. The point is that at the time Boston was in the middle of the pack.

Certainly, for various reasons Downtown Crossing weathered the 20th century better than most of its peers -- it's on a par with Philadelphia's Market East today -- but starting size and stamina are not the same thing. None of the F Street department stores remain in DC today, for example. Not one.
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  #105  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2015, 4:46 PM
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Boston was always a bigger, more urban, wealthier city than Cincy and Buffalo. I don't know enough about their historic retail offerings, but it would be hard to imagine a scenario where these cities had comparable retail offerings as Boston.
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  #106  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2015, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Perhaps you haven't been to any of them? You can still see the mark, if you know what you're looking for.
The department stores? I'm a Boston native. I shopped in Downtown Crossing with my family in the 1970s and then by myself in the late 1980s.

Quote:
- Philadelphia: Five -- Wanamaker's, Strawbridge's, Gimbels, Lit Brothers, Snellenburg's
- DC: Five -- Kann's, Hecht's, Woodward & Lothrop, Garfinckel's, Lansburgh's
- Baltimore: Four -- Hecht's, Stewart's, Hutzler's, Hochschild Kohn
- Cincinnati: Four -- Mabley & Carew, McAlpin's, Pogue's, Shillito's
- Boston: Three -- Filene's, Jordan Marsh, Stearn's
- Cleveland: Three -- Higbee's, Halle Brothers, May
- Buffalo: Three -- AM&A, Hengerer's, Hens & Kelly
- St. Louis: Two -- Famous-Barr, Stix Baer Fuller
According to Wikipedia, there were three additional department stores in Downtown Crossing--Gilchrist, Kennedy's, and Filene's Basement. That makes six.

Beyond department stores, Wikipedia also notes there were many small shops, as well as restaurants, that filled out what was the primary shopping district of one of America's largest metropolitan areas for hundreds of years. People throughout the Boston metro shopped in Downtown Crossing in 1950--there were no shopping malls in the area in that year. I just don't buy your claims.
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  #107  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2015, 9:07 PM
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Boston today has at least four sizeable destination shopping areas in its greater-downtown area (meaning clothes, etc....Crossing, Quincy Market, Newbury, Copley Square). And a lot of other streets that have good retail. Was it similar in the 50s?
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  #108  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2015, 2:17 AM
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Boston today has at least four sizeable destination shopping areas in its greater-downtown area (meaning clothes, etc....Crossing, Quincy Market, Newbury, Copley Square). And a lot of other streets that have good retail. Was it similar in the 50s?
I don't think so.

My parents, both in college in the Boston area in the late '60s, fondly remember a Back Bay so cheap it was mostly college students, artists and hippies. So while Newbury always had some retail, it wouldn't likely have been a strong regional magnet for things like clothing until the area was significantly gentrified in perhaps the late '70s or, more likely, the early '80s.

Copley Place was built in 1983 on, I believe, old railroad property. The nearby Prudential Center, also built in railyards, didn't come until the mid-'60s and had only one department store until the early '90s, IIRC.

Quincy Market and the whole Faneuil Hall area is mostly a tourist trap that was, until renovation in the mid-'70s, filled with grocers' produce stalls and other food vendors.
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  #109  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2015, 1:17 PM
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Providence, Rhode Island (1970).

More Freeway than City, it would appear.


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  #110  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2015, 1:19 PM
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Somewhere in Kansas City:

mblogsroyals

A dead zone when the stadiums are not in use. Could be craters on the moon.
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  #111  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2015, 1:53 PM
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the tsc (truman sports complex) is atrocious. its also located sort of in a zone beyond the urban core where development has leapfrogged beyond it, so is not a blight on functional urbanism. i personally hate the nfl and find applying nfl-like cultural practices like tailgating to baseball annoying, but kauffman stadium itself is the last of the modern stadiums and as such is rather elegant, if horribly misplaced.

i mean the royals won the world series so it must be okay, right?
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  #112  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2015, 4:37 PM
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also, a further note on the location of the "TSC" in Kansas City.

if you have ever watched the movie The Assassination of Jesse James by the Coward Robert Ford (2007) with Pitt and the lil Affleck, the location of the train robbery in the movie (and real life), "Blue Cut," is where the TSC is in Kansas City. The exit for the stadium complex is called "Blue Ridge Cutoff."

of course that was actually filmed in alberta, or something.
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  #113  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2015, 7:35 PM
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Before-and-after comparisons of many of the locations discussed in this thread: http://iqc.ou.edu/2015/01/21/60yrsnortheast/

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  #114  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 10:02 PM
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oh the pain in my chest reading through this thread again....
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  #115  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 2:18 AM
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Perhaps NO city on Earth has had as many urban renewal and planning "failures" like Los Angeles. Bunker Hill is probably the most famous.
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  #116  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 2:47 AM
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well, an issue here is that some cities had/have the drivers to compensate (at least partially) for major urban planning fuckups. chicago sort of "brute forced" its way past many of them in no small way thanks to inertia and the L. los angeles has its geography.
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  #117  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 4:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Providence, Rhode Island (1970).

More Freeway than City, it would appear.


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Now:

1. All those tracks are covered.
2. Freeway to the right has been moved is now the area is slowly attracting new buildings/parks.
3. Area in the upper center left is a Mall and lower Center has been mostly developed into Condos/Hotels/Convention Center.
4. 2 of the Rivers have been uncovered and a great area developed. Where you see that circle, just south of the Capitol Building is now a pond that acts as the center of an amphitheater.

So over all some really good urban renewal...after this photo.
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  #118  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 6:16 PM
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Now:

1. All those tracks are covered.
2. Freeway to the right has been moved is now the area is slowly attracting new buildings/parks.
3. Area in the upper center left is a Mall and lower Center has been mostly developed into Condos/Hotels/Convention Center.
4. 2 of the Rivers have been uncovered and a great area developed. Where you see that circle, just south of the Capitol Building is now a pond that acts as the center of an amphitheater.

So over all some really good urban renewal...after this photo.
Great to hear that the damage has been repaired.
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  #119  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 6:41 PM
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ah, i see what they did with those tracks...they built a park and a mall over them. that's one way to do it.

its nice to see that freeway removal, it almost looks like a healing wound from the satellite image. part of google streetview still has the expressway section in it.
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  #120  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2016, 10:20 PM
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ah, i see what they did with those tracks...they built a park and a mall over them. that's one way to do it.

its nice to see that freeway removal, it almost looks like a healing wound from the satellite image. part of google streetview still has the expressway section in it.
They also built the Amtrak Station, Blue Cross Blue Shield RI, Park, Mid Rise Condos, Low Rise Apartments over the tracks. The city really is a jewel and has such great potential. The 195 Land is really starting to boom....Johnson and Wales is completing a building, as is Brown and Brown and URI are converting an old Power Plant into the states Nursing School. Keep your fingers cross. Providence has the bones that PDX had when I was there in the 1980's and 90's.
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