So what are Canada's 18 hour cities?

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

One thing I loved about Toronto and don't love about Vancouver is that Toronto makes it obvious that these shadow lives are lived. Even being a white, middle class observer, I could see this sort of thing in action. In Vancouver, it might exist just based on the number of people who live here, but it's very hidden.

You've also hit the nail on the head on why I find large, auto-centric cities in the US sunbelt so depressing. These subaltern lives lurk around every corner, but it's impossible for anyone to see because they're just darting around the city in their cars.

I'm not sure how this is a uniqueness of Toronto. I get that it totally is for vancouver, but isn't much of that what you expect with any city of that size?

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

How long is a significant amount of time? I mean, I get what you're saying - it really is impossible to know Toronto in its entirety. This is probably true for all cities large and small in some way; perhaps it's all just a matter of degree.

1 year to 5 years, any shorter and it's just a vacation. Any longer and you'd be too old or too young to have a fair view on another comparable experience.

Younger than 23 and older than 40 I think it's far harder to get both ends of the experience. As you cannot cross generational boundaries so easily.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I do think people who are from here generally have a broader sense of the place than those who come from elsewhere unless they spend a significant (we're talking in terms of decades) time here. A university student who moves here from out of town and spends their early 20s living in the West End will have a social network that doesn't go much farther than (relatively) well-off students living in the West End. A local will generally have a wider and deeper network that may take them to corners of the city the young transplant will likely never see (I'm not just talking about physical corners either).

Not buying this for a second, just seems like some absurd anecdote.

If this were in absolute terms of how well in person in a 1000 can know the city you'd have the point, but this is about relative terms, how well one person can compare one place to another.

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

When I say "Toronto is a 24 hour city," I'm talking about a city of bathhouses, brothels and drug dens. I'm talking about East End Ethiopian after-hours and guys cruising Queen's Park. I'm talking about cab drivers huddled under the harsh fluorescent light of hole-in-the-wall Pakistani restaurants, of nurses riding the night bus from Scarborough to downtown hospitals, of lazy conversations with streetcar drivers on the 506. I'm talking about streetwalkers, the homeless and factory workers on their 4AM smoke break.

Here's a prime example of where I have no idea what your comparing toronto to.

It's a city of 6 million which unlike vancouver doesn't have any special treatment of this kind of thing.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Stryker

I'm not sure how this is a uniqueness of Toronto. I get that it totally is for vancouver, but isn't much of that what you expect with any city of that size?

Who cares if it's unique to Toronto. Toronto is unique because it's the only city of its size in Canada. And by that I mean that it is the best place to observe these shadows lives in a [English] Canadian setting. And by "Canadian setting", I'm talking about the cultural combinations of people and activities that exist in typical [English] Canadian cities.

Montreal probably affords the same opportunities for observation, but the cultural setting and the groups to be observed are totally different.

Vancouver has similar groupings to Toronto, being another English Canadian port of entry, but it keeps these things hidden, sadly.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Who cares if it's unique to Toronto. Toronto is unique because it's the only city of its size in Canada. And by that I mean that it is the best place to observe these shadows lives in a [English] Canadian setting. And by "Canadian setting", I'm talking about the cultural combinations of people and activities that exist in typical [English] Canadian cities.

Montreal probably affords the same opportunities for observation, but the cultural setting and the groups to be observed are totally different.

Vancouver has similar groupings to Toronto, being another English Canadian port of entry, but it keeps these things hidden, sadly.

Again what does this have to do with this thread? No I mean I"m very flexible but I don't get the point.

[DrNest]

Not being pedantic, but isn't every city 24 hrs?!? Or to be more precise; 23h 56m 4.1s.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Stryker

Again what does this have to do with this thread? No I mean I"m very flexible but I don't get the point.

wg_flamip made the important point that when we talk about "24 hour cities", many of us often assume that those 24 hours belong to people who can lead a certain lifestyle. So Ibiza or Las Vegas are 24 hour cities because white people with disposable income can party there. But cities also belong to others, who fill those 24 hours differently. Maybe the bars close later in Ibiza than in Toronto, but then in Toronto you have different forms of life going on at 4am, whereas in Ibiza you only have the clubgoers and their support workers.

I elaborated on that point by saying that a lot of cities have different forms of life and activity after dark, but that a lot of cities in North America make it difficult for an urban enthusiast to explore these parallel lives. Vancouver is one such city, and American sunbelt cities are others, despite their size.

Because my fascination with cities stems in large part from the ability to discover (or at least observe) activities of people that lead lives very different from mine, I find Toronto much more fascinating than those other cities.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

wg_flamip made the important point that when we talk about "24 hour cities", many of us often assume that those 24 hours belong to people who can lead a certain lifestyle. So Ibiza or Las Vegas are 24 hour cities because white people with disposable income can party there. But cities also belong to others, who fill those 24 hours differently. Maybe the bars close later in Ibiza than in Toronto, but then in Toronto you have different forms of life going on at 4am, whereas in Ibiza you only have the clubgoers and their support workers.

I elaborated on that point by saying that a lot of cities have different forms of life and activity after dark, but that a lot of cities in North America make it difficult for an urban enthusiast to explore these parallel lives. Vancouver is one such city, and American sunbelt cities are others, despite their size.

Because my fascination with cities stems in large part from the ability to discover (or at least observe) activities of people that lead lives very different from mine, I find Toronto much more fascinating than those other cities.

Ah cool beans I got yea.



Yeah I like that kind of thing too, I think living in toronto is one of the places in the world where 1000000 days of ground-hog day would be awesome.

[yaletown_fella]

Im pessimistic about Toronto ever becoming a 24 hour city.

The fact that Loblaws Maple Leaf Gardens closes at 10pm, is, quite frankly, pathetic.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've handed people (in Canada; here in Vancouver and in Toronto) an NS driver's license and then been told that I need valid Canadian ID.

I've had what I believe is worse than that happen to me... For the renewal of our corporation's domain name that we had registered many years ago through godaddy.ca, they needed to see the company charter. We scanned the original document (we have a provincial corporation, not a federal one) issued by the Government of Quebec with their seal on it, and they replied that it appeared to be in a foreign language and we needed to have it translated (at our expense) to English.

I replied it was a government-issued document in the sole official language of our government, and that they at godaddy DOT CA would have to satisfy themselves with it. I offered to translate it myself for free for them, but they refused, it had to be an official translation. No way I was going to pay for that, so we were actually stuck at that point until the registration through these assholes expired and we could register our domain name somewhere else.

Can you believe that? I was absolutely astonished.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by lio45

I've had what I believe is worse than that happen to me... For the renewal of our corporation's domain name that we had registered many years ago through godaddy.ca, they needed to see the company charter. We scanned the original document (we have a provincial corporation, not a federal one) issued by the Government of Quebec with their seal on it, and they replied that it appeared to be in a foreign language and we needed to have it translated (at our expense) to English.

I replied it was a government-issued document in the sole official language of our government, and that they at godaddy DOT CA would have to satisfy themselves with it. I offered to translate it myself for free for them, but they refused, it had to be an official translation. No way I was going to pay for that, so we were actually stuck at that point until the registration through these assholes expired and we could register our domain name somewhere else.

Can you believe that? I was absolutely astonished.

Whoa! If you had more time on your hands, or wanted to piss them off, maybe you could have pursued some form of legal action.

I remember that a crafty lawyer in Toronto once got caught making an illegal right turn and he won in provincial court by claiming that the right turn sign was invalid because it was only in English (i.e. "No right turn on red") in an officially bilingual province. Since then, the protocol has been to use symbolic signs with a stylized red traffic light and a right turn arrow with a slash through it.

I mean, Godaddy is different because it isn't provincial highway signage, but maybe you could make a case. You certainly were unnecessarily inconvenienced.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

Im pessimistic about Toronto ever becoming a 24 hour city.

The fact that Loblaws Maple Leaf Gardens closes at 10pm, is, quite frankly, pathetic.

They don't want to cannibalize the after hours business from the internally connected to subway Loblaws at College Park.

[softee]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

Im pessimistic about Toronto ever becoming a 24 hour city.

The fact that Loblaws Maple Leaf Gardens closes at 10pm, is, quite frankly, pathetic.

Just up the street there's a 24 hour Metro, and there's a 24 hour restaurant across the street. Not every business can be open 24 hours!

[eemy]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

J

Indeed. The pattern I've noticed is that some Torontonians heavily overstate their city's population and think other Ontario cities have much lower populations than they actually do. I've come across some Torontonians who think the city alone (not the GTA) has a population of 6 million. Others have made ridiculous claims about Toronto containing the majority of Ontario's population. And then the estimates I've heard for populations of other cities are hilarious: London 30,000, Peterborough 20,000, Kingston 50,000 (I've had people not believe me that Kingston is smaller than London, I have no idea where that came from).

My experience has actually been the opposite. Most Torontonians I've encountered aren't statistics nerds. They know that the city is roughly 2 million people and if asked, that's the population they give.

I wonder if this might not be the cause of some of the surprise about populations of other cities. If you're comparing the GTA (falsely thinking it has a population of 2 million) and Calgary, of course you'd be surprised that Calgary has 1.5 million people.

[DizzyEdge]

I would agree that Calgary is 18 hours, but I'm not exactly sure what the definition of a 24 hr city is.

Most things in Calgary are open 9-9. (Monday through Saturday anyway)
The bars of course are open til 2 or 3am
Many fast food joints and chain convenience stores are 24 hrs
There's a hand full of grocery stores and restaurants open 24 hrs.
There's no transit between ~1:30am and ~5:30am

So what is an example of a 24 hr city and what is different about it compared to the list above?
How about we use Toronto as an example.

[rousseau]

Stratford Ontario is definitely an 18-hour city. In 18 hours you can check in to your B&B, wander around downtown, have a nice meal, see King Lear, have post-theatre drinks, retire to bed, make whoopee, wake up in the morning and have an awkward breakfast with the couple running the B&B and the other guests who are avoiding eye contact with you because the walls aren't sound-proof, and then drive back to Toronto in the sunshine.

Only takes 18 hours to do everything there is to do here. There's no reason to stay longer or come back, unless you're one of those theatre buff weirdos.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Stratford Ontario is definitely an 18-hour city. In 18 hours you can check in to your B&B, wander around downtown, have a nice meal, see King Lear, have post-theatre drinks, retire to bed, make whoopee, wake up in the morning and have an awkward breakfast with the couple running the B&B and the other guests who are avoiding eye contact with you because the walls aren't sound-proof, and then drive back to Toronto in the sunshine.

Only takes 18 hours to do everything there is to do here. There's no reason to stay longer or come back, unless you're one of those theatre buff weirdos.

You forgot to mention going down to the park to look at the swans and other assorted waterfowl.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

You forgot to mention going down to the park to look at the swans and other assorted waterfowl.

Oops. Yeah, walking along the lake is nice. You could even skip the restaurant and have a picnic there instead.

Don't get too close to the swans, though.



They're used to people, but they're nasty buggers when they feel threatened. Those wings are powerful. I once got too close to one, and he let me know in no uncertain terms that I did so at my peril. He raised himself up to his full height, spread his wings, and challenged me to back off.

I didn't think it was worth getting mashed up into an ugly duckling, so I backed off.

[niwell]

Come to think of it I spent about exactly 18 hours in Stratford. Even got to see a swan up close! They're kind of terrifying. I shared a hotel room with my stepdad though so there was at least one key difference with rousseau's description...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by niwell

Come to think of it I spent about exactly 18 hours in Stratford. Even got to see a swan up close! They're kind of terrifying. I shared a hotel room with my stepdad though so there was at least one key difference with rousseau's description...

I hope you picked up some chocolates from Rhéo Thompson Candies. They are so good that they keep the 18 hours from feeling too long.

[softee]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I would agree that Calgary is 18 hours, but I'm not exactly sure what the definition of a 24 hr city is.

Most things in Calgary are open 9-9. (Monday through Saturday anyway)
The bars of course are open til 2 or 3am
Many fast food joints and chain convenience stores are 24 hrs
There's a hand full of grocery stores and restaurants open 24 hrs.
There's no transit between ~1:30am and ~5:30am

So what is an example of a 24 hr city and what is different about it compared to the list above?
How about we use Toronto as an example.

Well, there are quite a few 24 hour transit lines in Toronto, (a few streetcar lines and the night bus network). I would say more 24 hour and late night restaurant offerings and after hours establishments.