Does the +15 system make Calgary a better winter city?

[Ferreth]

The Calgary Herald had this story today about making a better winter city, with a large focus on the +15 system. One of the arguments put forward towards the end:

If you were to extend the money that went into the Plus-15 . . . and created friendly environments that were better landscaped . . . and that kind of thing, we'd be better off

Personally, I don't agree with this opinion. The +15 allows me to effectively get around downtown, without worrying about cars, weather, or waits at lights. It is more of a transportation network rather than a vibrant environment. Developments like The Core help offset the lack of vibrancy, and more of those should be supported - green spaces connected right into the +15, more retail, etc.

If you're a proponent of street life, I can see why you'd be anti +15. Street life doesn't exist if everyone is in the +15. Personally, I think the CBD is too far along in +15 development, and really street life is dead beyond Stephen Ave and Barclay walk; perhaps a future additional street or two. Work needs to be done where the +15 ends on building better street life south of 9th Ave.

Are we better off hiding from winter in the +15 network? I think the answer to that depends on what you want out of a downtown. As an effective means of commuting between buildings, it certainly made my life easier working downtown. As a means of bringing together a bunch of cultural and recreational venues to create a night time destination it totally fails, mostly because it isn't designed for that. But I still wouldn't trade the +15 network for a more vibrant street life downtown.

[freeweed]

I actually find it can take longer to walk the +15 than being on the street. Some buildings have such convoluted ways through them that it feels like you're walking twice the distance.

Extremely cold or heavy rain though - nothing beats it.

[kw5150]

It works so far!

I love the plus 15 system. As it continues to evolve and new shops and cafes open up, it will only get more interesting. When I go to a meeting at the other end of downtown, I dont even need a jacket.

If I want to walk outside, I walk outside. I like the two choices that we Calgarians have. If there were no plus 15's, the core shopping centre would not exist. I dont see why we can't have a good balance of both exterior landscape architecture and a plus 15 network. Montreal and Toronto also have a tunnel / +15 system and they brag about it....not question it. Winnipeg also has one.

Actually, Calgary should start to promote it. I know people who have lived in Calgary for a year that didn't even know the core shopping centre or that the plus 15 system was so interconneted.

I have no complaints about it at all except sometimes it is too warm!

I think we should start a thread about the high price of parking driving people away from the inner city especially on Saturdays. Also, maybe the parking should be free after 5.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by kw5150

I think we should start a thread about the high price of parking driving people away from the inner city especially on Saturdays. Also, maybe the parking should be free after 5.

Parking downtown is free or nearly so during those times. $2 at most (at least anywhere I've parked), and free for several hours if you're shopping at the Core. Free on Sundays and holidays too, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe I've just been lucky.... but I find it very hard to believe a couple of dollars is what's keeping people away from shopping at Holt Renfrew.

[DizzyEdge]

Indeed, during evenings and weekends parking costs are no barrier at all.
I'd be all for additional parking to be supplied to the core, but only 2-3 hr, and rigorously enforced.
That said, I'd be curious what would happen if all downtown parking was suddenly $5 a day, I wonder how much the gridlock would be self regulating as far as people still using the train instead.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Parking downtown is free or nearly so during those times. $2 at most (at least anywhere I've parked), and free for several hours if you're shopping at the Core. Free on Sundays and holidays too, if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe I've just been lucky.... but I find it very hard to believe a couple of dollars is what's keeping people away from shopping at Holt Renfrew.

Thats why I said it should start at 5 (instead of 6) and be free on Saturdays...... hell, they could make it free 1 saturday a month for all I care.

[93JC]

Ugh, I hate this argument. On those -35 days I guarantee Martin Cohos was walking the +15s with the rest of us.

That the +15 system takes away from the 'vibrancy' of street life is predicated on the assumption people would be out and about on the street in cold weather, which is in my opinion spurious. Yes, if you took away the +15 system more people would be on the street out of necessity, but would they make the street more 'vibrant'? In other words they'd be 'out', but would they be 'about'?

I argue no, they're just going to be rushing off to whatever building they need to get to. They're not going to mingle, window-shop, etc.: it's too frickin' cold!


As for parking cost driving people away from downtown, it does, absolutely it does. I don't think that's what really keeps people away though. The bigger issue is that downtown offers few amenities you can't get elsewhere. That's not to say there aren't unique things you can only get downtown (Centre for the Performing Arts, boutique shops in TD Square/Eaton Centre, etc.) but for the day-to-day essentials downtown has nothing you can't somewhere else. I.e. if I lived in Dalhousie would I go shopping downtown or just go to Market Mall?

[Radley77]

I would like to see a +15 built that is 'busker friendly'.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Ugh, I hate this argument. On those -35 days I guarantee Martin Cohos was walking the +15s with the rest of us.

That the +15 system takes away from the 'vibrancy' of street life is predicated on the assumption people would be out and about on the street in cold weather, which is in my opinion spurious. Yes, if you took away the +15 system more people would be on the street out of necessity, but would they make the street more 'vibrant'? In other words they'd be 'out', but would they be 'about'?

I argue no, they're just going to be rushing off to whatever building they need to get to. They're not going to mingle, window-shop, etc.: it's too frickin' cold!


As for parking cost driving people away from downtown, it does, absolutely it does. I don't think that's what really keeps people away though. The bigger issue is that downtown offers few amenities you can't get elsewhere. That's not to say there aren't unique things you can only get downtown (Centre for the Performing Arts, boutique shops in TD Square/Eaton Centre, etc.) but for the day-to-day essentials downtown has nothing you can't somewhere else. I.e. if I lived in Dalhousie would I go shopping downtown or just go to Market Mall?

I also think this arguement is too opinion based and sometimes not based on experience. I used to a agree that the plus 15 network killed street life.....but if people want to go outside......they will....there are still plenty of people that walk outside as well.

In the summer, there are more people outside than inside...and in the winter it is reversed....it is just how a winter city works.

I love showing newcomers to the city the "secret world" of the plus 15 network in Calgary. I love how it links to the larger interior spaces as well like Bankers Hall, Gulf Canada square, THE CORE, Bow Valley square, Petro Canada, The stock exchange area, Jamieson.....etc.....and there are new areas that I stumble upon all the time. I would like to see this system continue to grow but maybe with more of an interplay between the exterior / interior threshold.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Radley77

I would like to see a +15 built that is 'busker friendly'.

Its funny that you say that.....there have been some really good ones lately. The link between scotia and The Core is starting to become famous....lol

[DizzyEdge]

Let's put Stephen ave in a giant bubble, with a Core-like skylight.. that's retractable.

[Doug]

Downtown Calgary is one of the most intensely developed square miles on the continent. It has more than enough density to support both the +15 and street levels. The two biggest obstacles against more vibrant streetscapes in downtown Calgary are:
1) Regardless of the progress of the past decade, downtown is still mostly office space. Office lobbies make for less interesting streets. More needs to be done to encourage other uses.
2) Despite the challenge of making office towers more appealing at the street level, Calgary suffers from the fact that a majority of its towers went up in the late 70's and early 80's with blank walls and raised plazas that barricade the street. Renovations have achieved some progress, but much needs to be done.

That being said, climate is still a huge barrier to street life in Calgary with or without the +15. I just spent 3 years in Perth. It is a young city like Calgary with many of its buildings constructed post 1970s. Its downtown is considerably smaller than that of Calgary and also very skewed towards office use. Despite all of this, streetlife is miles ahead due to the temperate climate. Most people take their breaks outside, eat outside and even conduct work meetings outside. Pedestrians are more leisurely because they don't have to rush into some climate controlled environment to gain comfort.

[Wooster]

Originally Posted by Doug

Downtown Calgary is one of the most intensely developed square miles on the continent. It has more than enough density to support both the +15 and street levels.

I've begun to realize this more and more. The critical mass is there to support both. That said, on a nice day you won't find anyone in a +15, people are desperate to flee the stale air of their office for the outside.

Calgary has been doing a much better job to enliven the ground floor of newer office buildings. I'd point to Homberg, EAP, Opus 8 and others that have done a much better job to just make it more attractive, even if the downtown doesn't support streetlife by its office nature, outside of business hours.

As a downtown, Calgary should focus on (yes making sure each new building contributes well to the public realm) making the hot spots really, really good. If places like Eau Claire, Stephen Ave/Olympic Plaza, 10th and 11th aves, 1st street, East Village, 17th ave are truly good people magnets people will cease to care about whether 5th avenue provides good streetlife. Make the good stuff great and people forget about the other areas. No one is bothered that Bay Street in Toronto doesn't have street life because a couple blocks away Queen and Yonge are bustling. No one in Chicago cares that the Loop is dead during weekends because Michigan Ave is busy at that time. Same will happen in Calgary when some of our centre-city districts better live up to their potential as people-places. +15 will be irrelivant to the discussion.

[Radley77]

I am curious what would happen if Calgary was to regulate lighting on a specific street? Like in Times Square or Fremont Street at night. The Christmas lights along Stephen Avenue are really great, which I think is being funded by the downtown community association.

In my opinion, Calgary doesn't need 10 mediocre pedestrian retail streets, just one or two phenemonal ones.

My suggestion would be to just keep expanding the +15 network, but at the same time keeping a retail\cultural pedestrian street like Stephen Avenue or the Red Mile very focused.

Ack: I see Wooster beat me to it (RE: "make good stuff, great!")

[DizzyEdge]

Agree with both of you.

I realize this is turning into the good streets vs the +15 topic, but what do you think about Barclay Mall. Although the street/sidewalks etc are attractive, there's not much retail presence. Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Agree with both of you.

I realize this is turning into the good streets vs the +15 topic, but what do you think about Barclay Mall. Although the street/sidewalks etc are attractive, there's not much retail presence. Would there be enough sidewalk space for it to focus on food carts or the like? Basically cart based retail.

Barclay mall is pretty disappointing in my books. All the planters really clutter it up and make it feel like walking a rats maze. Little retail, boring street face. I only ever walk it to be outside, otherwise I just use the +15 that roughly parallels it.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Barclay mall is pretty disappointing in my books. All the planters really clutter it up and make it feel like walking a rats maze. Little retail, boring street face. I only ever walk it to be outside, otherwise I just use the +15 that roughly parallels it.

Well google street viewing it, there's definitely some room between planters and in other areas for a fair number of carts, and you could even have food trucks in the few parking spaces. It could be interesting idea.. and give it a purpose.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Well google street viewing it, there's definitely some room between planters and in other areas for a fair number of carts, and you could even have food trucks in the few parking spaces. It could be interesting idea.. and give it a purpose.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. The sidewalk ends up having about the standard width you would get anywhere else. Take out about 2/3rds of this and allow the sidewalk the full width where the meander of the road narrows the space available. Oh, I got a kick out this little outdoor space the Zen 8 I presume is using, seriously, who is going to want to sit 5 feet away from where cars are whizzing past?

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. The sidewalk ends up having about the standard width you would get anywhere else. Take out about 2/3rds of this and allow the sidewalk the full width where the meander of the road narrows the space available. Oh, I got a kick out this little outdoor space the Zen 8 I presume is using, seriously, who is going to want to sit 5 feet away from where cars are whizzing past?

Well considering that those planters are only there to make a boring street slightly more interesting, I would support rearrangement or reduction of them if something interesting went in their place (that wasn't as large). Where that little.. patio.. is where I could envision the back of a food cart, you're right as far as sitting there it's a pretty bad spot.

[DizzyEdge]

And in the winter instead of food the carts could sell shots of spiced rum