Tucson Development Thread

[Patrick S]

Possible future alignments of Broadway Blvd. after the widening of the segment from Euclid to Country Club.

I really like the 5th one here (it includes the possibility of light rail): http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projec...udy-01ksV2.pdf
I like the 2nd one here (again, light rail): http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projec...ernativeV2.pdf
Here's the link to the whole project: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/broadway

[Ted Lyons]

Living in the area, I'd be very surprised if any of the 6+2 options are adopted. I think the 4+2T option is the most likely and should be prioritized as it appeases all parties. Keep in mind that straight 4 options are still on the table, so compromise will probably be necessary.

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

Possible future alignments of Broadway Blvd. after the widening of the segment from Euclid to Country Club.

I really like the 5th one here (it includes the possibility of light rail): http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projec...udy-01ksV2.pdf
I like the 2nd one here (again, light rail): http://www.tucsonaz.gov/files/projec...ernativeV2.pdf
Here's the link to the whole project: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/broadway

Yes, I agree. It'd be foolish to design this without the possibility of light rail. Considering how many structures must be cleared for the project we need to make a road that won't need to be expanded in the future. A light rail won't need to be widened, you just need extra trains. I also like the bike road but if we can't fit it in then don't.
Being the road that many people base their impressions of Tucson on, I'd suggest trees a tad bit nicer than our humble mesquites and palo verdes. Some Chinese Pistache trees would really improve the aesthetics on Broadway

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by rpf

Here's Steve Farley's similar light rail proposal from a decade ago:


I have also read that there are 3 officially proposed short-to-medium term streetcar route expansions--I took a survey some time ago that listed them along with various BRT routes. I believe they were:

• Campbell to Limberlost to the Tohono Tadai transit center
• 6th/Broadway to El Con
• 6th Ave to (I think) the Laos Transit Center

I think those are all reasonable routes, although I think there was hope that El Con would evolve into something more transit friendly, instead of a collection of big box stores. A Broadway line needs to go further east to really make sense. What concerns me is that there was no dedicated right-of-way planned for any of it. No one is going to ride 5+ miles on the streetcar at 8 MPH unless they are already bus riders. The existing line only makes any sense because there are a lot of jobs, homes, and attractions within a mile or two of each other along it. A longer system has to have its own right-of-way or else it will just take too long to get anywhere.

I like Steve Farley and the work he has done for Tucson, but his new map worries me because it seems to be trying to cover way too much ground with rail, while not matching up with population and employment density very well, and at roughly 50 miles total, would cost $2-5 billion, possibly much more.

I love Tucson and I want to see more transit-oriented growth, but that much money isn't happening, and that much rail just doesn't make sense.

BTW, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Transit is my main area of interest; I voted for Steve's original plan in 2003 and I hold out hope that Tucson can get it together and move our transportation infrastructure forward in a smart way.

I've thought the position of Downtown and the UA gave light rail planners an opportunity to create a loop. Each line in the system would have only one terminus with a common loop at the other end. The idea being that each line in the system increases the frequency of trains in the loop (highest density land use) Also a way to develop Speedway from I-10 to UA.



In that example there have been three lines built. Because of the odd number a train would circle around to keep the clockwise and CCW wait times equal.

So where the city might run 4 or 5 trains an hour on each line, those looking to get somewhere else on the loop would see 8 or 10.

Maybe it's not worth the trouble, but there is another benefit. Any LRT is going to have to service both downtown and UA. A loop creates twice as much "light rail adjacent" real estate as a conventional route would.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

Yes, I agree. It'd be foolish to design this without the possibility of light rail. Considering how many structures must be cleared for the project we need to make a road that won't need to be expanded in the future. A light rail won't need to be widened, you just need extra trains. I also like the bike road but if we can't fit it in then don't.
Being the road that many people base their impressions of Tucson on, I'd suggest trees a tad bit nicer than our humble mesquites and palo verdes. Some Chinese Pistache trees would really improve the aesthetics on Broadway

I agree with you. I also like those Chinese Pistache tree lining Broadway Rd.

[cdsuofa]

I think when it comes to starting our light rail system, Broadway from Downtown to Park Place would be the best initial route and then additional lines could spring off of that. I would like to see the system be as free flowing as possible, I hope it doesn't end up just like a bus where it takes you 15 mins to get a mile due due stop lights, traffic, whatever. How we could achieve this without doing the obvious extremely expensive options (raised above street level or dropped below at points) is a question I don't know how to answer.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by cdsuofa

I think when it comes to starting our light rail system, Broadway from Downtown to Park Place would be the best initial route and then additional lines could spring off of that. I would like to see the system be as free flowing as possible, I hope it doesn't end up just like a bus where it takes you 15 mins to get a mile due due stop lights, traffic, whatever. How we could achieve this without doing the obvious extremely expensive options (raised above street level or dropped below at points) is a question I don't know how to answer.

Traffic timing is critical. If you set up lights to give trains priority, you don't have to worry about grade separation.

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by cdsuofa

I think when it comes to starting our light rail system, Broadway from Downtown to Park Place would be the best initial route and then additional lines could spring off of that. I would like to see the system be as free flowing as possible, I hope it doesn't end up just like a bus where it takes you 15 mins to get a mile due due stop lights, traffic, whatever. How we could achieve this without doing the obvious extremely expensive options (raised above street level or dropped below at points) is a question I don't know how to answer.

Phoenix's LRT has a right of way between lanes. Traffic laws limit the speed, but it is still much faster than a bus.

The biggest issue with that system I'd say is for drivers, not riders. Apache Blvd. can be a headache at times, Broadway in Tucson could much worse.

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Traffic timing is critical. If you set up lights to give trains priority, you don't have to worry about grade separation.

sure, but it would be faster for everyone. Any generous billionaires on the board?

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by cdsuofa

... I would like to see the system be as free flowing as possible, I hope it doesn't end up just like a bus where it takes you 15 mins to get a mile due due stop lights, traffic, whatever. How we could achieve this without doing the obvious extremely expensive options (raised above street level or dropped below at points) is a question I don't know how to answer.

Raised above street level or underground rail would be ideal for a free flowing light rail transit - not gonna happen in Tucson, unfortunately.

Since Tucson has always been against the all important east-west crosstown freeway (Grant-Kolb, my favorite freeway route) and traffic flow has been getting worse each year, I think a dedicated lane for light rail is Tucson's best answer for the likely traffic armageddon it will face in the future.

Tucson might as well extend the current street car route to a light rail otherwise it will be another embarrassing major sinkhole (and a joke). Besides, wherever the light rail goes, investment follows ( 5+ floor buildings ).

[farmerk]

Looks like construction is at the beginning stage at downtown west. Was there this morning and I saw 3 construction vehicles ( 2 large earth movers and 1 large water truck ) parked in the middle of that empty dirt lot besides the Sentinel Plaza. I'm assuming those vehicles are for the 'stone' walled apartment complexes that's been promised the last 10 years. The streetcar rails and roads are done so those apts could be next.

Although we only have the Sentinel Plaza and El Rio around that small area, I'm beginning to feel that density. Can't wait for the rest.

[cdsuofa]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Traffic timing is critical. If you set up lights to give trains priority, you don't have to worry about grade separation.

Of course doing this will help the train move about easier but then you throw off the light timing system for automobile traffic which is already a huge issue in Tucson. I agree this will be more than likely the solution they go with but I still think there will be issues with time of transit on the system making it less desirable to ride for the average car owning Tucsonan. The view I would like to hear more is that this is a major infrastructure project for Tucson which will only be done once and we should spend the money to do it the best way possible but I know that view wont be adopted by your average citizen

[Patrick S]

Proposed commercial area on the southwest corner of Golf Links and Houghton (directly across Golf Links from the mixed-use area I posted about last week), called Sorrento Square: http://larsenbaker.catylist.com/file...on_Arizona.pdf

I guess, technically, it's not proposed, as the Goodwill and the Quick Trip on that corner are part of it.

[sh9730]

So, been a few days since this thread engaged in any "gigafactory" speculation....wow the information is just soooo back and forth.

BUT, in this interview for the AZ Republic the Govt Affairs exec TODAY says that Arizona is "very much in the running" and the decision is likely to be made by summer.

http://www.azcentral.com/videos/opin...04/14/7709827/

And there was this article a few days ago discussing the fact that Land Company Vermaland has offered to GIVE Tesla land in Eloy or Gila Bend for the project.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/money...-bend/7484329/

Now, OTOH, there are a bunch of articles out there (mostly from our competition states press outlets) that AZ may have killed itself by not passing the law to allow Tesla direct sales.....could be - but at least on the outside TESLA is still considering us since there Govt Affairs guy was here in the state TODAY (after the bill was already dead for now)....

Who knows...

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by sh9730

So, been a few days since this thread engaged in any "gigafactory" speculation....wow the information is just soooo back and forth.

BUT, in this interview for the AZ Republic the Govt Affairs exec TODAY says that Arizona is "very much in the running" and the decision is likely to be made by summer.

http://www.azcentral.com/videos/opin...04/14/7709827/

And there was this article a few days ago discussing the fact that Land Company Vermaland has offered to GIVE Tesla land in Eloy or Gila Bend for the project.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/money...-bend/7484329/

Now, OTOH, there are a bunch of articles out there (mostly from our competition states press outlets) that AZ may have killed itself by not passing the law to allow Tesla direct sales.....could be - but at least on the outside TESLA is still considering us since there Govt Affairs guy was here in the state TODAY (after the bill was already dead for now)....

Who knows...

If it's outside Tucson, Eloy would be great for us. Really hope the failed legislation isn't a killer.

[ProfessorMole]

Looks like the service start date on the Streetcar is July 25th. Assuming we hit that milestone, it will be running for a couple weeks before students start moving into the two new towers starting August 10th (spoke with the leasing agents).

Streetcar Article on RailwayAge

[ppdd]

Grocery store coming to downtown. This is a really good development, hopefully catering to a more general audience that Maynards Market. This needs to work for students and general residents (read: good prices). There will be a development announcement with partners later today.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt...59659e6ba.html

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by ppdd

Grocery store coming to downtown. This is a really good development, hopefully catering to a more general audience that Maynards Market. This needs to work for students and general residents (read: good prices). There will be a development announcement with partners later today.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt...59659e6ba.html

Maynard's doesn't really offer groceries anymore anyway, so we had a total void downtown.

After reading this article, I did some internet sleuthing and stumbled across a few things. First is the real estate listing for Gibson Court, which includes the new store location: http://s.lnimg.com/attachments/A/3/6...D1040237E6.pdf

Some pictures from the listing:





Second are the FORS plans for the courtyard area, which were submitted last week: http://www.tucsonaz.gov/PRO/Command?...umentsandPlans (I hope that link works.)

Some pictures from the plans:





As best as I can tell, the signs on the renderings are just examples. I looked up the names and they are for restaurants in San Diego and Seattle.

The last thing I found was this Cushman & Wakefield listing for "Gibson Court" at 121 East Broadway, which is currently Shot in the Dark Cafe: http://www.loopnet.com/xNet/MainSite...x?LID=18520205. The full "Gibson Court" flyer does not list 121 as one of the properties available for lease, so this must be a new addition.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by ppdd

Grocery store coming to downtown. This is a really good development, hopefully catering to a more general audience that Maynards Market. This needs to work for students and general residents (read: good prices). There will be a development announcement with partners later today.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt...59659e6ba.html

Wow! Thanks for posting this great news! They picked a very good location too. I hope more groceries (and high rise apts/condos) will follow

According to KOLD, the prices will be lower and will 'have outdoor seating, European style displays which will stretch on to the sidewalk'

[andrewsaturn]

Originally Posted by ppdd

Grocery store coming to downtown. This is a really good development, hopefully catering to a more general audience that Maynards Market. This needs to work for students and general residents (read: good prices). There will be a development announcement with partners later today.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt...59659e6ba.html

I was happy to read about this earlier today!! I hope we can make the best of this location and I know it will be because Rincon Market is such a successful Tucson grocery store and it seems like the owners have a good proposal coming into this being that there's a story/history being weaved into it as well.

[cdsuofa]

hopefully a CVS type store is soon to follow and then Downtown will be set to attract urban residents and residential developments hopefuly things like medium rise apartment or condos