First Nations Issues

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by esquire

Like it or not the treaties are a part of our collective reality. They're not going anywhere.

Constitution Act, 1982 acknowledges Aboriginal rights. Section 35 of the Constitution reads "The existing aboriginal and treaty rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada are hereby recognized and affirmed."

https://bctf.ca/IssuesInEducation.aspx?id=5684

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

All Canadians should be treated equally is not something first nations leadership wants to hear, they don't want equal treatment they want special treatment.

There's nothing 'special' about contractually agreed upon treatment.

[robertocarlos]

My cousins are Metis. Maybe I am Metis as well. I think we're going to claim half of Winnipeg.

[robertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Aborigines seem to want their cake and eat it too. They want to be treated like everyone else in the country yet continue to receive special treatment through funding that the rest of us will never have access to because most of us work for what we have in life.

We are all Canadian living in a multicultural country in the 21st century. We should all be treated equally, no matter what race or cultural background we come from.

Time to end special treatment based on race.

Except it's OK to abort Indian girls. You know, just because.

[robertocarlos]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

Enough with the treaties. No offence but it our native population here in Manitoba would actually follow those treaties that their elders signed. They wouldn't be living the way they are now. The treaties are now being used as a crutch. A way to get more money , a way to try and gete the rest of Canada to bow down. Those original treaties were to make the native peoples equal here in Canada. Equal means you contribute to Canada. Not live off it.

Problem is that our native leaders are abusing this now at the cost of the actual native peoples. And the more they push the rest of Canada. The more divide they bring.

Trust me as being part native I can tell you that the rest of Canada would like nothing more then to see the native population working with the rest of us side by side. But we also would like to see everyone treated exactly the same.

I live in an upscale white area and to be honest I have nothing wrong with a hard working native person and his family moving in beside me. I do have an issue with a non working native person moving in beside me and knowing its my tax dollars paying for that home. That's not fair to anyone.

It's time to take those treaties back to the table. Bring them up to date with the rest of Canada and move on.

Working for a living is so last century. We have robots now. When your job is gone you will understand.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

There's nothing 'special' about contractually agreed upon treatment.

Maybe FN's would get further ahead if they went to large claims court (is there such a thing?) and sued the Queen for Breach of Contract!



Or maybe more people like this guy should step up and attack the problems head on.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...e-attawapiskat

For Ernie Crey, a long-time social worker and recently elected chief of the Cheam First Nation near Chilliwack, B.C., there’s an important element that many leaders seem loathe to discuss, even in the midst of a crisis, whether at Maskwacis, Attawapiskat, La Loche or any other troubled First Nations community and reserve.

“People can go on about colonialism, the Indian Act, poverty and the like,” he says, “but they don’t get down to brass tacks. People don’t want to offend, so they avoid specifics.”

And the specifics, he says, are these: “Not all is well on the parenting front, with addictions and mental illness. People are having a heck of a time being parents and their kids end up feeling ignored, neglected, and in many cases, abused.”

Interventions to help suicidal kids on reserves such as Attawapiskat will only work, Crey says, if “their parents are included. The parents also need help, to heal and to cope with their addictions. They need to show an interest in their children, re-establish a positive relationship with them. They don’t need a symposium on colonialism.”

As an outsider looking in, I cannot imagine being in their shoes, the problems seems so insurmountable. And that maybe the other problem, the mountain of issues that face FN youth, middle age and elders seems crushing but then you cannot eat an elephant in one bite. Empty rhetoric from whitey I know but its all I got.

[NK59]

Jonathan Kay: Moving is the only hope for communities like Attawapiskat
http://news.nationalpost.com/full-co...eople-stay-put


We’re not bison,’ grand chief says to suggestion First Nations people leave troubled reserves like Attawapiskat
http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...e-attawapiskat

[Cyro]

From Construction Thread..

Originally Posted by Spocket

Wow...the UofM went full SJW with that plan.

I don't have a problem with giving it an aboriginal theme, I just don't see what difference it makes. "Truth and Reconciliation Center"? Are you kidding me? Fuck off.

A topic most don't want to touch. I too agree with the inclusion and embracing of aboriginal motifs and traditions because really if aboriginal people can't have a "homeland" for their culture here, where can they? On reserves? I would rather see shameful and unsustainable reserves become a thing of the past, but I'm also no fan of assimilation and want to see cultural diversity flourish.

Regarding the "Truth and Reconciliation Centre", I see what you're saying. I agree that it's too divisive of an issue because at this point our society has vilified residential schools to nearly the point of being seen as concentration camps for native kids. The intentions that created them may have been misguided and ultimately damaging but they were far from evil. Plus the abuse was done by individuals and was not instituted policy.

I don't believe all non-native Canadians should be made to feel responsible or continuously reminded of the wrongful policies instituted by governments of the past and abuse perpetrated by individuals other than themselves. The effect is to seemingly lump non-natives together as "perpetrators" which is patently false. This is sure to breed division and resentment.

Originally Posted by JM5

A topic most don't want to touch. I too agree with the inclusion and embracing of aboriginal motifs and traditions because really if aboriginal people can't have a "homeland" for their culture here, where can they? On reserves? I would rather see shameful and unsustainable reserves become a thing of the past, but I'm also no fan of assimilation and want to see cultural diversity flourish.

Regarding the "Truth and Reconciliation Centre", I see what you're saying. I agree that it's too divisive of an issue because at this point our society has vilified residential schools to nearly the point of being seen as concentration camps for native kids. The intentions that created them may have been misguided and ultimately damaging but they were far from evil. Plus the abuse was done by individuals and was not instituted policy.

I don't believe all non-native Canadians should be made to feel responsible or continuously reminded of the wrongful policies instituted by governments of the past and abuse perpetrated by individuals other than themselves. The effect is to seemingly lump non-natives together as "perpetrators" which is patently false. This is sure to breed division and resentment.

Some of the most foundational abuses were absolutely instituted policy and the devolution of key areas of responsibility to church-run IRSs was an attempt to manage the system at arms-length in order to save money and distance the feds from legal and moral responsibility -- plenty of historical evidence, including statements and on-the-record discussion (including legislative) to support both claims.

Few IRS Survivors are interested in framing non-native Canadians as "perpetrators," either historically or now. The discussion is overwhelmingly about reconciliation through education, making sure that the legacy of the IRS system is properly understood and contextualized, among Canadians of all kinds. One way to do that is through architecture, which can educate without being didactic, and this is what the U of M seems to want to do, despite its failures to support IRS education in some other key ways.

if they can pull it off without screwing it up through cost-cutting, incompetence or admin meddling, more power to them. Best possible scenario is that it works for a wide range of constituencies, including indigenous.

Originally Posted by kirkawall

Some of the most foundational abuses were absolutely instituted policy and the devolution of key areas of responsibility to church-run IRSs was an attempt to manage the system at arms-length in order to save money and distance the feds from legal and moral responsibility -- plenty of historical evidence, including statements and on-the-record discussion (including legislative) to support both claims.

Few IRS Survivors are interested in framing non-native Canadians as "perpetrators," either historically or now. The discussion is overwhelmingly about reconciliation through education, making sure that the legacy of the IRS system is properly understood and contextualized, among Canadians of all kinds. One way to do that is through architecture, which can educate without being didactic, and this is what the U of M seems to want to do, despite its failures to support IRS education in some other key ways.

if they can pull it off without screwing it up through cost-cutting, incompetence or admin meddling, more power to them. Best possible scenario is that it works for a wide range of constituencies, including indigenous.

Point taken, the fundamental abuse of having children forcibly taken from their parents was obviously institutionalized.

A module on residential schools, including watching a film telling the story of one victim was part of my social studies class in the early nineties. The lesson is learned, people are aware of the truth of what happened and the point has been driven home. At some stage, harping on the issue further will have the opposite effect to what is intended because people with little interest in the subject or government policy or human rights in general will feel their time could be better spent learning more "useful" subjects. There's also the very real and unavoidable fact that less knowledgeable individuals on both sides of this issue WILL generalise, causing further division.

Also, I know it's commonly accepted to refer to all who attended residential schools as "survivors" and I guess the separation from family warrants this somewhat, but what about those who were lucky enough to attend a school in their own community? How about the majority who's did not suffer physical or sexual abuse? Survivor used to be a powerful word but is rather overused these days imo.

[vid]

I haven't met anyone who attended a Residential school who doesn't refer to themselves as a "survivor". I'm sure they exist, they're just not very common. There are good stories to come out of residential school, just as there were good experiences to come out of other horrific situations like the siege of Gaza, the holocaust, or the Chernobyl disaster, but those are always in spite of what is happening, not because of it. A few students having a good time at Residential school doesn't exactly negate the Kenora nutrition experiments or the St. Anne's School electric chair torture device. Overall, those schools were a negative thing and the main problems that result from them—PTSD, chronic alcohol abuse, society dysfunction, homelessness and crime—are a result of the bad experiences, not the good ones, and that's the problem that we need to solve today.

A module on residential schools, including watching a film telling the story of one victim was part of my social studies class in the early nineties. The lesson is learned, people are aware of the truth of what happened and the point has been driven home.

I read on Facebook the other day—might have been The Oatmeal actually—that you have to repeat something to someone 14 times before they actually start to understand it. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think that to say that watching a film in the early 90s is "lesson learned" and that the "point has been driven home" is really, really naive. I've been repeating myself in discussions on this topic for over a decade now, often telling the same thing to the same people year after year because they don't absorb it, they just cling to their biases and misconceptions.

White people definitely need to get past the guilt trips (there is one white SJW in Thunder Bay who basically makes other white SJWs pay him $100 per seminar to learn how to call themselves and everything they do racist) and realize that guilt is solved through reconciliation—you know, that thing the First Nation people are actually asking for?

Because, call me an SJW or "Indian Lover" all you want (and I've been called that latter term 3 times this year which is fucking bizarre as fuck), I don't feel guilty about what happened. I simply feel a responsibility to society to work towards making the country and the life of the people around me better.

[JM5]

Originally Posted by vid

I haven't met anyone who attended a Residential school who doesn't refer to themselves as a "survivor". I'm sure they exist, they're just not very common. There are good stories to come out of residential school, just as there were good experiences to come out of other horrific situations like the siege of Gaza, the holocaust, or the Chernobyl disaster, but those are always in spite of what is happening, not because of it. A few students having a good time at Residential school doesn't exactly negate the Kenora nutrition experiments or the St. Anne's School electric chair torture device. Overall, those schools were a negative thing and the main problems that result from them—PTSD, chronic alcohol abuse, society dysfunction, homelessness and crime—are a result of the bad experiences, not the good ones, and that's the problem that we need to solve today.



I read on Facebook the other day—might have been The Oatmeal actually—that you have to repeat something to someone 14 times before they actually start to understand it. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think that to say that watching a film in the early 90s is "lesson learned" and that the "point has been driven home" is really, really naive. I've been repeating myself in discussions on this topic for over a decade now, often telling the same thing to the same people year after year because they don't absorb it, they just cling to their biases and misconceptions.

White people definitely need to get past the guilt trips (there is one white SJW in Thunder Bay who basically makes other white SJWs pay him $100 per seminar to learn how to call themselves and everything they do racist) and realize that guilt is solved through reconciliation—you know, that thing the First Nation people are actually asking for?

Because, call me an SJW or "Indian Lover" all you want (and I've been called that latter term 3 times this year which is fucking bizarre as fuck), I don't feel guilty about what happened. I simply feel a responsibility to society to work towards making the country and the life of the people around me better.

Am I wrong in assuming that learning about residential schools and their impact is a part of everyone's junior high or high school curriculum, and has been since at least the early nineties, which is what I was getting at?

It's true that I don't know as much about the issue as you or some others do, but not everyone can be an expert on every subject. I happen to have limited interest in this beyond what was a part of my curriculum: essentially that native kids were ripped away from their families to attend catholic schools (common in remote areas around the globe, although usually NOT forced) where they faced corporal punishment (endured by many around the world including myself at school), indoctrination into a culture other than their own (endured by many around the world including myself at school) and some were the victims of sexual abuse perpetrated by catholic school teachers/priests (endured by many around the world, luckily NOT myself). It was fundamentally wrong of the government to do this.

Regarding reconciliation, what is involved in the process? When will the issue be reconciled?

[Bluenote]

Because, call me an SJW or "Indian Lover" all you want (and I've been called that latter term 3 times this year which is fucking bizarre as fuck), I don't feel guilty about what happened. I simply feel a responsibility to society to work towards making the country and the life of the people around me better.

I'll get flamed for this.

But here are the easiest ways to end the stigmas.

1- start working
2- stop blaming everyone that's not native for your problems. You created the problems. You created the addictions. You created the crime etc etc.
3- start using the FREE programs we have for you. Like college. University. Etc.
4- use the FREE programs we have for you to fight addictions. Fight abuse in your homes. Etc etc.
5- stop trying to be so gangsta. You NOT from da hood. You from Winnipeg 👍
6- embrace a white person once in awhile 😘
7- start paying taxes. Even if all the taxes you paid was to fund something in your reservations that was used to help your people. Just pay it.

In all honesty and some jokes aside. The only way to end the negative view we all have is to simply change it and the easiest one and the one that leads to resentment is WORKING.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

I'll get flamed for this.

But here are the easiest ways to end the stigmas.

1- start working
2- stop blaming everyone that's not native for your problems. You created the problems. You created the addictions. You created the crime etc etc.
3- start using the FREE programs we have for you. Like college. University. Etc.
4- use the FREE programs we have for you to fight addictions. Fight abuse in your homes. Etc etc.
5- stop trying to be so gangsta. You NOT from da hood. You from Winnipeg 👍
6- embrace a white person once in awhile 😘
7- start paying taxes. Even if all the taxes you paid was to fund something in your reservations that was used to help your people. Just pay it.

In all honesty and some jokes aside. The only way to end the negative view we all have is to simply change it and the easiest one and the one that leads to resentment is WORKING.

You make it sound so easy, just start working and use the programs we have in place and it will all get better!

[balletomane]

I'm not sure how to comment on an issue like this, there is so much hurt, so much pain, so many broken promises, so much deceit, so may misconceptions, so much division...

I know its not the case, these are good people, but even still I allow myself to fall victim to the stereotypes. If I'm walking the streets of Downtown, I will often go out of my way to avoid a First Nations person walking my way. Maybe they are just headed to a Tim Hortons, or a Shoppers, but in the second I worry maybe they will hurt me. I guess its hypocritical considering my ancestors played a role in their genocide.

We cannot be the ones to say, this is how things will get better for your people. It needs to come within, and for as much as the depression and oppression these people have faced has been multi-generational, so will the recovery. And we need to respect that, it seems when people think of First Nations being integrated with society, it still means assimilation and comes at the cost of their culture, something to be capitalized on, something that could be sold in a Forks gift shop to represent our city and country.

How do you learn to love if you never learned it as a child? How does your child learn to love if they were never loved? How does you grandchild? Many of these youth, they cannot receive the proper education they need, they are trapped in a remote reserve that receives less funding than non-reserve schools. Entire families of 20 live in houses of maybe 1,000 sq ft, they are covered in mould. Maybe they were promised land in the treaties, but this land was the undesirable land for the settlers, floodplains and remote locations. Because they cannot receive a proper education, they have children at a young age, how can you achieve your dreams if you are caring for a baby, on your own, at 16?
Many of these youth have dreams as a child, one day make it to the big city, become an nhl player, or attend a university! But the dreams are cut by the reserves, a cancer that cannot just be walked away from. And even if you get away, the oppression lingers. These youth, these people, it is not the sadness that hurts them. It is the lack of any emotion. Drink alcohol, have drugs, join a gang, anything to FEEL something, just a be a part of society. I cannot imagine having so much hurt, that I feel nothing, no emotion, just empty.

Sorry if this is long winded and non-nonsensical, I care very much about this issue, but trying to explain that is difficult.

[balletomane]

Originally Posted by JM5

Regarding reconciliation, what is involved in the process? When will the issue be reconciled?

I think the issue with reconciliation is that people assume that one day, Canadians will wake up and go "Ah, today we have reconciled". Clearly, this won't happen.

I think the greatest obstacle to reconciliation is that it means different things to First Nations and non-First Nations people.

To a First Nations, it means an embracing of the culture, where the elders are no longer silent and are able to teach the youth their wisdom. Reconciliation also means equal access to opportunity.

To a non-First Nations person, reconciliation means an integration into society. Where they are no longer a people to be feared, and are no longer a burden on society and taxpayers.

[DirtWednesday]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

I'll get flamed for this.

But here are the easiest ways to end the stigmas.

1- start working I do work. fuck off.
2- stop blaming everyone that's not native for your problems. You created the problems. You created the addictions. You created the crime etc etc. my life, my problems. very few of them. I'm no addict or criminal. fuck off.
3- start using the FREE programs we have for you. Like college. University. Etc. free. lol. fuck off.
4- use the FREE programs we have for you to fight addictions. Fight abuse in your homes. Etc etc. I'm not an addict. You're an addict. fuck off.
5- stop trying to be so gangsta. You NOT from da hood. You from Winnipeg 👍gangs are for unfortunate losers who need to feel familial connections. I have a family. fuck off.
6- embrace a white person once in awhile 😘 I married one. fuck off.
7- start paying taxes. Even if all the taxes you paid was to fund something in your reservations that was used to help your people. Just pay it. I pay taxes. Seriously, if it weren't for all the other dumb comments in this list, this would be the dumbest naive thing constantly said about native people. fuck off.

In all honesty and some jokes aside. The only way to end the negative view we all have is to simply change it and the easiest one and the one that leads to resentment is WORKING. You act like you've never seen a working indigenous person. fuck off.

Ho lee shit.

Yo moderator, why does this thread even exist on a webpage about skyscrapers? It only serves to bring out ignorance.

Germans have been educating their people for decades on the shitty thing they did for 12 years in order to warn them never to do it again and Canadians bitch and moan about a tiny amount of education about the shitty thing the Canadian government did for 130 years and its consequences.

Education, acknowledgment, and respect. We'll start there.
I'll respect the non-injun way of life so long as my way of life is respected. Now get the fuck out of my way, I'm going to work!

[kirkawall]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Also, I know it's commonly accepted to refer to all who attended residential schools as "survivors" and I guess the separation from family warrants this somewhat, but what about those who were lucky enough to attend a school in their own community? How about the majority who's did not suffer physical or sexual abuse? Survivor used to be a powerful word but is rather overused these days imo.

Until the latter part of the IRS system, there were very few dayschoolers. And in some schools, like Fort Alexander (located in today's Sakeeng) students were forced to board in schools within their home communities -- you could look out the window of the dorm you were forced to live in for 10 months of the year, and see your house and family a few feet away. For the record, students at Fort Alex suffered appalling levels of abuse, including physical and sexual. For many this began with their arrival, and the youngest boarders were taken at 4-5 years old.

For those of you with kids, imagine handing them over (unwillingly) at that age, and thereafter seeing them once a week, under supervision, for 30 minutes. During the 10 months of the year they're away from you, they are (often but not always) subjected to various forms of abuse, taught a language and culture that you (usually) don't share, making it increasingly difficult to communicate with your own children, and (in many cases) take a curriculum that includes as little as an hour a day of core education and as many as 10 hours a day of unpaid labour for the benefit of the school and its staff.

Then factor in the general indifference of school and all levels of government to the overall health of these students (the school at Brandon retains its student cemetery) and total indifference to students once they leave the system you've forced them into, the inability of those students to reconnect with the language and culture they've been forcibly cut off from, and the racial hatred they endure as "Indians" in the Canada of the time -- not to mention the lack of resources available (mental health, sexual health, further education, employment, etc) they can expect as they enter the world of work, family, etc. The closest contemporary analogue is today's war-affected children and families -- and the resources developed for these groups dwarf those of IRS Survivors.

So yeah, some kids made it through, and some got good degrees and good jobs and raised families and became the hard-working tax-paying uncomplaining Christmas-celebrating citizens so beloved of the Winnipeg Sun -- and STILL got called tax-dodging drunken Indians, and endured all kinds of static at work and in the neighbourhoods they wanted to live in, and didn't get into golf clubs or get promoted as they ought to have been, and so on and so on. Those groups of "successful" Survivors absolutely deserve to be called Survivors because they WERE Survivors -- the fact that they were able to do so against incredible odds should not, in my view, be held against them. And the fact that in many cases what these Survivors want is not "more handouts"-- they know all about handouts -- but the chance to have their stories and cultures recognized, and better conditions for their children and grandchildren, and anyone else's who might suffer in the same ways, is IMO a remarkably generous response to longstanding brutal treatment. I guess I'm not sure how non-natives can reasonably resent that, especially members of groups who themselves endured suffering, racism, etc. Seems like a win-win to me.

[DirtWednesday]

Originally Posted by kirkawall

So yeah, some kids made it through, and some got good degrees and good jobs and raised families and became the hard-working tax-paying uncomplaining Christmas-celebrating citizens so beloved of the Winnipeg Sun -- and STILL got called tax-dodging drunken Indians, and endured all kinds of static at work and in the neighbourhoods they wanted to live in, and didn't get into golf clubs or get promoted as they ought to have been, and so on and so on. Those groups of "successful" Survivors absolutely deserve to be called Survivors because they WERE Survivors -- the fact that they were able to do so against incredible odds should not, in my view, be held against them. And the fact that in many cases what these Survivors want is not "more handouts"-- they know all about handouts -- but the chance to have their stories and cultures recognized, and better conditions for their children and grandchildren, and anyone else's who might suffer in the same ways, is IMO a remarkably generous response to longstanding brutal treatment. I guess I'm not sure how non-natives can reasonably resent that, especially members of groups who themselves endured suffering, racism, etc. Seems like a win-win to me.

This is why I am so pissed off. I'm tired of this shit. I'm tired of my whole family running into prejudice. And not just my family. There are countless indigenous on the up and up and yet here in Winnipeg, all people want to see is the product, or rather chewed out garbage of this capitalist system.

Any other place you go you will see homeless addicts of many backgrounds because that's just what this system does; top 1% and bottom 1%. Only here, because of 130 years of abuse and a concentration of reserves and remoteness, one particular background is dominant in the cellar.

And it's frustrating the abuse they still get despite all this 'curricular education' people get in junior high, somehow "Junior" still doesn't get that drunken injun he's mocking is the product of the system he learned ALL about in junior high. That product who had their real culture eradicated in favour of a bible thumping, Christmas celebrating, sexually abused, loveless childhood.

*sigh*
We'll get there. We're only just beginning this reconciliation thing, whatever it means. But yes, kirkawall, mainly we just want to have the freedom of practicing our old (and true) way of life without being mocked and wrongly viewed as a bunch of unemployed drunken devil worshipers.

[Tacheguy]

the amount of casual stereotyping of aboriginal people must be truly discouraging. I have aboriginal family and friends who are educated professionals and, in one case, run a successful small business. I feel so bad for them at times when people treat them with such suspicion. I don't know how I would react if it were me..

[bicycles]

The moderators should be embarrassed for allowing these trolls to spew their ignorant, racist bullshit on here.

Cyro should have his moderating revoked for his white supremacist sympathies. That's all residential schools were about. The white men knows best.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by bicycles

The moderators should be embarrassed for allowing these trolls to spew their ignorant, racist bullshit on here.

Cyro should have his moderating revoked for his white supremacist sympathies. That's all residential schools were about. The white men knows best.

Schools were set up to uplift First Nations and to allow them the education and a background to succeed in the modern world.

Unfortunately with that came abuse, cultural genocide and misery.

What started as a somewhat noble effort turned out to be a disaster mostly because it was the church that was involved!