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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 4:16 PM
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Priorities for Downtown Phoenix

Priorities for Downtown Phoenix


Jul 10, 2012

By Edward Jensen

Read More: http://www.edwardjensen.net/downtown...-phoenix/3373/

Additional: Phoenix needs energy to get talent, companies to stay

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There’s been a lot made about that op-ed in Sunday’s edition of The Arizona Republic about downtown Phoenix. Personally, I thought it was full of aspirational platitudes that could easily be applied to Pittsburgh as much as Phoenix or Poughkeepsie. But, like the attention-craved downtowners that we are, any publicity is good and we have to go at it and spin our way through it.

- I’m prepared to argue that downtown Phoenix’s four priority areas should be shade, connection, grocery, and density. I really don’t like to employ the overused Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs because it’s just that: overused. But each of the areas here build on each other. In downtown Phoenix, that bottommost level would be shade.

- Hot summers aren’t a new invention for Phoenix, even the Hohokam had to deal with them. (We’ve just made them hotter by clear-cutting agricultural fields around the urban core to make way for exurban development.) If one looks at recent architecture in Phoenix, one could reasonably deduct that it doesn’t get warm here.

- The next level up on that hierarchy is connection. Urban areas require connection by non-automobile needs. The connections, however, aren’t there. Bike lanes exist in islands and vacuums by themselves. Key parts of our downtown, like Grand Avenue, aren’t connected to the rest of the Phoenix public transportation system. Light rail is a wonderful asset to the community but very few spur lines from that initial twenty-mile starter line have been contemplated; I doubt the usefulness of those lines that have been considered.

- Another level up is grocery. Perhaps this is a uniquely Phoenix case since we don’t have a true walkable grocery store in our community. Need groceries? The nearest full-service grocery store to downtown Phoenix is a Safeway at 7th St and McDowell. Within downtown, there are two convenience stores and two mini-markets that sometimes don’t cut it. As much as we all loved the indoor Urban Grocery at the Downtown Phoenix Public Market, it had limited selection and high prices.

- Once you have these three fundamentals, then you can achieve the big thing that makes urban environments shine: DENSITY. Consider the following: There are about thirty coffeehouses in downtown Phoenix, including independent places like Fair Trade and One Coffee and chains like Starbucks and Dutch Bros Coffee. There’s also a score of expensive “destination” restaurants in the same area. But who lives here? The biggest continuous population in downtown Phoenix is ASU students. Aside from a few others who live at 44 Monroe, the Orpheum Lofts, and Alta Lofts, that’s not a lot of non-ASU density.

.....



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  #2  
Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 8:11 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
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Why is this here and not in the Southwest Regional subforum, other than to provide opportunity to hate on the sunbelt? Nobody here except those of us living in Arizona give a shit about Phoenix other than to lecture/criticize us on problems we're already familiar with that plague the Valley.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 9:30 PM
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Shade is nice, but, it's certainly not as necessary for Phoenix's downtown as The other elements, grocery probably being the biggest one. We locals don't like the 110 degree days, but, mid 90's and below aren't bad, which is what it is for most of the year. Saying Phoenix needs shade in its downtown is like saying Milwaukee needs heat vents in its downtown.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Except that you can dress up to protect from the cold. Can't escape the heat.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 10:44 PM
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Also the introduction of commercial alleys and old European style narrow pedestrian corridors and malls can produce wind tunnels as opposed to always being out in the open sun.

Have them built on what would ordinarily be a square that wouldn't have roads are cars in them anyway.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Who wrote this? Apart from shade, which seems sort of ridiculous, although I'm never opposed to trees... This guy seems to have the cart before the horse. Denver has about 1,000 times more downtown reside trial than Phoenix, and we're just on the verge of getting a grocery store. Retail never leads, it follow rooftops. Phoenix, if you asks me, needs housing, housing, and more housing. (Plus the university, which is a great addition, and as much business/office as downtown can grab, there's no harm in that.)

Unless, I dunno, correct me if I'm wrong... Are people starving to death in Downtown Phoenix? Something tells me they're not. So Maslow doesn't apply.

Edit: On Mark's comment - You can't just plop narrow alleys and tight buildings in the center of an auto-based metropolis. For one, retail would never survive if you couldn't get cars in. At least, until you get people, people, people.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Who wrote this? Apart from shade, which seems sort of ridiculous, although I'm never opposed to trees... This guy seems to have the cart before the horse. Denver has about 1,000 times more downtown reside trial than Phoenix, and we're just on the verge of getting a grocery store. Retail never leads, it follow rooftops. Phoenix, if you asks me, needs housing, housing, and more housing. (Plus the university, which is a great addition, and as much business/office as downtown can grab, there's no harm in that.)

Unless, I dunno, correct me if I'm wrong... Are people starving to death in Downtown Phoenix? Something tells me they're not. So Maslow doesn't apply.
I guess the ASU Downtown campus has helped, but with the real estate crash hitting Phoenix hard, its been a slow process trying to attract people downtown.

Let me put it this way, based on what I've seen since I moved to Arizona 15 years ago: People come here from back east trying to escape everything they think they hated about the cities back east (looking your way, suburban Chicagoland/Milwaukee/Minneapolis transplants).

They want their houses with swimming pools, maybe a couple palm trees and/or cacti on their property, and their precious views of the mountains way off in the distance.

However, some of us Midwestern and East Coast transplants miss some of the things we had back home. But does that mean I want to see Cincinnati's Over-the-Rhine or West End neighborhoods recreated here? Certainly not.

Thanks to people like former Mayor Phil Gordon, current Mayor Greg Stanton and even Mesa Mayor Scott Smith, there's been a real interest to mold certain places within the metropolitan area (primarily Downtown Phoenix and Downtown Mesa...Downtown Tempe/Mill Avenue already had something resembling urbanity thanks in part to Arizona State) into something that looks vaguely urban, regardless of how often people fight it (and oh boy, do they ever fight it). Because of local, state and federal hardships the past four-five years, that transformation's been incredibly difficult, if not downright impossible at times.

Traditional urban planning, as far as I can tell (and I am by no means a credible expert on any of this) doesn't really seem to work here. We can't try to be like Portland, Seattle or Denver in trying to better develop what most here consider to be a "working/viable" downtown, especially because historic building stock has either been torn down in the name of urban renewal or just simply never existed here. Keep in mind, this is a city that had a population of 66,000 in 1940 which jumped to around 430,000 by 1960.

Look, I'm sorry for being a whiny bitch about the way most of these threads about sunbelt cities (particularly Atlanta and Houston) turn out. I live in the Southwest, I enjoy living in the Southwest, and I do what I can to make Arizona a better state, even if my priorities are apparently so far out of whack with what the rest of the state wants its ridiculous. Its a tad bit frustrating to see people come on here talking about "what Phoenix needs to do" like they're experts who've lived here for years. For what its worth, I'm certainly no expert, just some idiot with a screen name and a vested interest in the future of Phoenix and Arizona.

Last edited by Buckeye Native 001; Jul 14, 2012 at 11:40 PM.
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Old Posted Jul 14, 2012, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Except that you can dress up to protect from the cold. Can't escape the heat.
Typical snow belt arrogant comment. Ever heard of a tank top? How about standing in the shade in a dry heat? Or near a mister? Or drinking water? Or not being an overweight slob who's body is naturally hot? Or wearing linens and Pima cotton and other airy materials?

There's as many ways to cope with a 110 degree day as their are with a 20 degree day. I've lived in PHX, St Louis, Boston and LA. Some people can tolerate heat, some cold, its kind of like arguing over your favorite soda, its silly. For me, I can much more tolerate waiting for the Light Rail on a July day in Phoenix than I could waiting for the T in Boston in January.

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Originally Posted by SunDevil View Post
Shade is nice, but, it's certainly not as necessary for Phoenix's downtown as The other elements
I disagree 100%. Shade (and in general 'cooling') should be the #1-10 priorities for Phoenix. If you have great shade, many great things can happen:

- People can walk and bike further
- Property values increase
- Downtown doesn't look 'scary' and more people are encouraged to move in or visit
- The Urban Heat Island effect is combated
- People are more willing to linger outside, talk to neighbors and increase a sense of community


Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Who wrote this? Apart from shade, which seems sort of ridiculous, although I'm never opposed to trees... This guy seems to have the cart before the horse. Denver has about 1,000 times more downtown reside trial than Phoenix, and we're just on the verge of getting a grocery store. Retail never leads, it follow rooftops.
Agreed, density>>>>grocery. Shade is #1, but then we need density and a grocery will natural follow.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 1:20 AM
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Why did you guys move this in here.

No offense to anybody personally, but I think it's absurd that you guys simply assume nobody in the main thread would be interested in discussing Phoenix (without resorting to knee jerk Sun Belt bashing). This was just as relevant as most other discussions going on in there. Detroit's smaller reality? Come on Phoenix, embrace the big stage! . Seriously, Phoenix is more relevant to the 21st Century U.S. than a lot of those cities - it *needs* to be discussed.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 1:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Typical snow belt arrogant comment. Ever heard of a tank top? How about standing in the shade in a dry heat? Or near a mister? Or drinking water? Or not being an overweight slob who's body is naturally hot? Or wearing linens and Pima cotton and other airy materials?

There's as many ways to cope with a 110 degree day as their are with a 20 degree day. I've lived in PHX, St Louis, Boston and LA. Some people can tolerate heat, some cold, its kind of like arguing over your favorite soda, its silly. For me, I can much more tolerate waiting for the Light Rail on a July day in Phoenix than I could waiting for the T in Boston in January.
You must not wear a suit to work.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 2:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Why did you guys move this in here.

No offense to anybody personally, but I think it's absurd that you guys simply assume nobody in the main thread would be interested in discussing Phoenix (without resorting to knee jerk Sun Belt bashing). This was just as relevant as most other discussions going on in there. Detroit's smaller reality? Come on Phoenix, embrace the big stage! . Seriously, Phoenix is more relevant to the 21st Century U.S. than a lot of those cities - it *needs* to be discussed.
Meh, I'm tired of certain holier than thou Canadians and elitist east coasters who think they're gods gift to urban planning.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 2:13 AM
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The fact that we're still having this conversation something like five years after Mayor Phil boomed "we need shade!" on stage at the Orpheum as part of his introduction to Urban Form is a joke.

Since then, we've finished 2nd Avenue from Fillmore to Roosevelt and did a planting in Evans Churchill and some areas in the western part of the Roosevelt neighborhood itself. Roosevelt St from Central Ave to 4th St is next.

At the approximate rate of 1/8 mile per year, downtown Phoenix will be "shaded" in probably 600 years, presuming maintenance can be kept up.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 3:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
Meh, I'm tired of certain holier than thou Canadians and elitist east coasters who think they're gods gift to urban planning.

Those places had more of a chance to create urbanism before the car takeover to have more of it.

As for Phoenix, is there an actual downtown in the truest sense where the downtown is supposed to be, or is it just a manufactured living centre that's no more than the sum of it's parts to spread out everywhere, made worse by the fact it's in the not most habitable environment.

And no highrises because of mountain nimbies...
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 4:14 AM
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I was referencing j will and miketoronto specifically, for what its worth.

As far as my personal experiences with Downtown Phoenix go, there's an honest to god downtown in the truest sense, it just needs a lot of work (and it goes without saying that Mayor Stanton, like Phil Gordon before him, seems committed to making Downtown Phoenix as urban as possible).

And no, its probably not the most hospitable environment, but keep in mind this was a place that practically got its start because of people from back east moving there to rectify chronic bronchial issues (asthma, tuberculosis)
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 7:36 AM
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
Those places had more of a chance to create urbanism before the car takeover to have more of it.

As for Phoenix, is there an actual downtown in the truest sense where the downtown is supposed to be, or is it just a manufactured living centre that's no more than the sum of it's parts to spread out everywhere, made worse by the fact it's in the not most habitable environment.

And no highrises because of mountain nimbies...
Are you fucking serious? How can anyone start a thread and comment on it or any thread about a city and then ask such a question? I'm assuming you're serious. Look up "historical Phoenix photos" or anything of that ilk to answer your question. Do you really think Phoenix has never had a downtown? Do you think the first thing ever built here was a single family master planned community?


Phoenix obviously had a kick ass downtown with density, streetcars, the whole nine... And it still does. Could it be better, sure. Could our fore fathers have saved much of the historical built environment, sure. But we still have a decent Place that's growing and maturing, even though we're young and have been dealt a raw hand.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by nickw252 View Post
You must not wear a suit to work.
The majority of Phoenicians don't wear a full suit to work in the summer. Those who have to ought to be smart enough to wear seersucker, wide brim hats, etc.
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Old Posted Jul 15, 2012, 12:25 PM
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Not much can be done now due to the after effects of the crash, but in the medium term there is a lot go for. What the downtown clearly needs is employment and residential density. The city needs to push hard to get development started. It should not be worried about high rises several square miles of 5 to 12 storey apartments and offices would transform the city.

The existing strategy of the Biomedical campus and the university district look like good ideas and the faster these trip generators can grow the better.

It is also important that any new office development promotes street life. In recent years in the UK landlords are finding it difficult to let offices on small business parks where there are no facilities and the bigger ones are trying to add residential so they can support more shops and services. It has been noted that many current park occupiers are looking at town centre locations because of the better public transport and the retail and leisure that is there.

The implication being the competitive advantage a city centre offers is it's environment, with other offices, retail and restaurants a short walk from your desk. New office buildings should be hard against the sidewalk with ground floor retail/lesiure units. It really does not matter about anything else as long your streets are filled with active uses and the sidewalks have people on them all day long.

I driven a few US cities downtowns that looked like they had been evacuated, they'd turned themselves into a business park that was a bit denser than the suburban ones.

The key to city centre vitality is a dense residential hinterland. If there were a 100,000 people with a mile of the metro line between downtown and Indian rd, for example then there would be sufficient population to support a diverse retail and leisure scene. This in turn would attract more office occupiers and a virtuous circle.

Getting from here to there is the difficult part.

But if Phoenix resumes it's growth it should not be too hard to get a 200,000 people out 5 million to live in a dense inner core.

The city should concentrate on making the core as attractive as possible to business and residents and have the correct zoning policies so the right form of development occurs.

I've drawn a few quick maps to give you an idea about what is needed. The actual boundaries of these lines don't matter it is just to illustrate broad principles.



Light blue - zone for increased density, multifamily and row homes.

Pale red - employment led mixed use at increased density. New development built to streetwall, active ground floor uses.

Red sites - examples of underused sites that could make good employment buildings.

Orange- sites that are underused, could make good residential apartment blocks.

Purple - University/Bio science.





As the population rises, it would be good to have a few good shopping streets, here I've drawn possible streets that should have stricter rules on including ground floor uses for retail and leisure. Again, the actual streets chosen do not matter, but it is important that retail is not scattered around the area, broken up by car park ramps and blank office lobbies. Not all streets can support ground floor uses so it would be best if certain streets were declared a priority.


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Old Posted Jul 16, 2012, 8:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
The majority of Phoenicians don't wear a full suit to work in the summer. Those who have to ought to be smart enough to wear seersucker, wide brim hats, etc.
Not all jobs allow you to wear seersucker suits. One time opposing counsel wore one in court. The judge made a comment referring to him as the Good Humor Man.
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Old Posted Jul 16, 2012, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by westbev93 View Post
Not all jobs allow you to wear seersucker suits. One time opposing counsel wore one in court. The judge made a comment referring to him as the Good Humor Man.
LMOA! Some designers do sell black and dark gray suits nowadays! Obviously, darker colors in direct sunlight aren't nearly as cool as the traditional white and white/blue patterned seersucker, but much cooler than wool or synthetic blends.

Back on topic, why would someone who obviously doesn't know about Phoenix start a thread about downtown Phoenix priorities?
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Old Posted Jul 16, 2012, 9:31 PM
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Originally Posted by westbev93 View Post
Not all jobs allow you to wear seersucker suits. One time opposing counsel wore one in court. The judge made a comment referring to him as the Good Humor Man.
Well then that judge was an idiot. Seersucker is a traditional material in warmer/southern climates, and Arizona custom is to be more casual than in places like NYC, Philly or DC.

Either way, we're getting off the point: Shade is important, it needs to be the top priority.
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